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Hey, since you seem knowledgeable about tau, my friend is getting into 40k and wants a tau army. I'm pushing him towards 1-2 start collecting boxes, and the pathfinder + devilfish box. He's wanting a ghostkeel and stealth suits. Do you have any advice for him? I've asked before, but that was before 8th dropped and now people seem to have a better idea of how tau works. Should I have him build his fire warriors as breachers or the other one?
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Jun 27, 2017 03:48
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| # ? May 14, 2024 00:40 |
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Sup fellow Southern MD Goonham! I live in Waldorf. The Sex Cannon can attest that I am not a murderer. It's mostly that I live closer to Annapolis than you do. About the same distance to Bowie, though. I'm in Owings, right on Route 2. 2 may only be 2 lanes, but it goes pretty much straight to annapolis and is almost never congested, and then 97 moves really quickly outside of rush hour. If you ever want to get a game in, be it at bowie or otherwise, my schedule is reasonably open. I pretty much can't do jack on a work day, but I have days off during the week fairly often and can play whenever on those, in addition to weekends. If you want, I can PM you my facebook or whatever so we don't poo poo up the thread too much.
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Jun 27, 2017 03:49
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Honestly the best news with the new releases is that they're finally making a helmeted Librarian again.
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Jun 27, 2017 03:52
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The rules allow for some stupid looking meta-stuff and last I looked some of the youtubers hadn't figured out extremely simple poo poo like mixing characters into units.
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Jun 27, 2017 03:58
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What do you mean by mixing characters into units? Do you mean making pseudo-squads of characters?
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Jun 27, 2017 04:02
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Mixing characters into units mostly. Lots of people think you have to conga-line your mobs back towards their buffers. You don't. Just put the buffers inside the mob, there's nothing that says you can't.
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Jun 27, 2017 04:06
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Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah that works well, just have to be careful you don't crowd yourself with your movement.
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Jun 27, 2017 04:13
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chutche2 posted:Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah that works well, just have to be careful you don't crowd yourself with your movement. That's the problem, once you advance and your squad rolls a 6 and your character rolls a 1, you're back to the conga line.
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Jun 27, 2017 04:14
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It's only a problem if you roll poorly a bunch of times. If I was an ork player I'd put my boss exactly slightly behind the farthest ahead boy in my mob and then just pull from the back every time. Worst case scenario is a boss behind but still in buff range of the boyz.
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Jun 27, 2017 04:25
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The Kingfish posted:Mixing characters into units mostly. Lots of people think you have to conga-line your mobs back towards their buffers. You don't. Just put the buffers inside the mob, there's nothing that says you can't. If you want to be pedantic, you can't move through your own models. So you have to move like a U shape forward from the mob, and then the character up the middle, because they are separate movements.
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Jun 27, 2017 04:27
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Felime posted:It's mostly that I live closer to Annapolis than you do. About the same distance to Bowie, though. Sounds good to me. High Tide Games is equally far from me but is definitely more grungy than Bowie.
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Jun 27, 2017 04:37
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Are battle cannons trash now? I always wanted an IG armoured division but I probably won't without templates.
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Jun 27, 2017 04:53
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JBP posted:Are battle cannons trash now? I always wanted an IG armoured division but I probably won't without templates. Hellhounds are good now. 
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Jun 27, 2017 05:01
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Battle cannons are very niche. They're pretty good at putting a hurt on 2 wound infantry, and are okay versus other vehicles. I think they slightly outperform a lascannon vs tanks. Get them up against the right target though (terminators, primaris marines, maybe crisis suits?) and they should do okay. On average they won't do anything but you'll get the occasional good turn out of them. Against the targets they do well against a demolisher is going to do better. Engagements feel like they happen a lot quicker in 8th and so the 24 inch range isn't much of a disadvantage. Most of the time you're going to get more done with the heavy bolters. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 05:02
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God drat it I want to blow the gently caress out of everything with battle cannons, thanks for nothing 8th edition.
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Jun 27, 2017 05:04
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JBP posted:God drat it I want to blow the gently caress out of everything with battle cannons, thanks for nothing 8th edition. Yeah they're just not good against much of anything. They aren't reliable and don't do much damage when they do hit.
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Jun 27, 2017 05:36
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I remember (and this was a very long time ago) playing against my friend's tank heavy IG list and those cannons would roar and just decimate poo poo. Sad I will never know this feeling.
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Jun 27, 2017 05:37
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You can use tank orders/commanders/pask to boost battle cannon chances.. And if you don't mind proxying in forgeworld vehicles, the Salamander commander or Trojan can give you +1 BS and/or rerolls to hits on any vehicle. Gets pretty expensive fast, but can give you a bunch of better-than-average tank killing
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Jun 27, 2017 05:40
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So questions, what's the significance of Tau characters having the key words 'Tau Empire, Tau Sept' and everything else having 'Tau Empire, <Sept>'? Also, does anyone have experience with SM Scouts in 8th yet?
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Jun 27, 2017 05:59
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Miruvor posted:You can use tank orders/commanders/pask to boost battle cannon chances.. And if you don't mind proxying in forgeworld vehicles, the Salamander commander or Trojan can give you +1 BS and/or rerolls to hits on any vehicle. Gets pretty expensive fast, but can give you a bunch of better-than-average tank killing Salamander and Trojan are also super easy to just make yourself! Especially with that new terrain you can just pull some mechanical crane poo poo off of.
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Jun 27, 2017 06:00
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Felime posted:On a related note, how is the GW Store at Bowie? I heard it got shrunk down massively and is only 2 tables now or something, but that comes from someone who has written off all orks as horrible trash after playing three games with them, so I'm not sure how much I can trust his opinions on things being terrible. I was at GnS on Saturday and definitely heard this exact guy bitching about orks sucking now.
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Jun 27, 2017 06:02
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What makes battle cannons so bad, anyway? Is it just the swinginess of having both damage and shots fired being randomly determined, along with a not particularly impressive strength score?
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Jun 27, 2017 06:03
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The Bee posted:What makes battle cannons so bad, anyway? Is it just the swinginess of having both damage and shots fired being randomly determined, along with a not particularly impressive strength score? Pretty much. On average you're getting 3 shots, half of those hit, and one or two of those will wound, causing an average of two wounds each. You can probably kill an elite infantry model or two or punch a smaller hole in a tank. While potentially powerful, it really depends on you rolling above average to do anything notable.
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Jun 27, 2017 06:10
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SRM posted:Pretty much. On average you're getting 3 shots, half of those hit, and one or two of those will wound, causing an average of two wounds each. You can probably kill an elite infantry model or two or punch a smaller hole in a tank. While potentially powerful, it really depends on you rolling above average to do anything notable. Yeah, the swinginess between 18 wounds and 1 wound is really noticeable on a Battle Cannon, especially when that's before considering hits, wounds, and saves.
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Jun 27, 2017 06:12
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I like the new rules, but the random elements really aggravate me.
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Jun 27, 2017 06:23
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If they wanted to make blasts and flamers work without actual templates, they could've at least tossed some modifiers in. Like a battle cannon could be d6+2 or a plasma cannon d3+1, whatever. You still need to roll to hit, so it's not like they'd necessarily transfer into more hits every time, but it'd help hedge some bets. A simple d6 is way too swingy and I am really disappointed in blast weapons across the board.
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Jun 27, 2017 06:43
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Safety Factor posted:If they wanted to make blasts and flamers work without actual templates, they could've at least tossed some modifiers in. Like a battle cannon could be d6+2 or a plasma cannon d3+1, whatever. You still need to roll to hit, so it's not like they'd necessarily transfer into more hits every time, but it'd help hedge some bets. A simple d6 is way too swingy and I am really disappointed in blast weapons across the board. Even if the odds end up being roughly the same as the old system I think the real problem is how you end up with an extra random roll layer to replace the scatter and then still roll to hit anyway. I'd rather it be like d6 automatic hits or 2d3 or something for everything besides just flamers. Increase the points cost if that's too good but make it feel better at least. We're rolling to hit twice before also rolling to wound and then also them possibly getting an armor save (and then also them possibly getting feel no pain).
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Jun 27, 2017 07:00
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RagnarokAngel posted:Page back but when people say rules feel "gamey" Its trying to label their dislike of simplified rules. And I kinda get that, but its from a sort of...cognitive distortion? I think it's simpler than that when you look at 'shady pile-in moves.' The OP has not understood the new combat movement stuff then gotten wrecked because of it, now they're whining. This happens a lot in 40k - it was the same, ironically, with 5th ed multiple assaults.
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Jun 27, 2017 07:16
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General Olloth posted:Even if the odds end up being roughly the same as the old system I think the real problem is how you end up with an extra random roll layer to replace the scatter and then still roll to hit anyway. I'd rather it be like d6 automatic hits or 2d3 or something for everything besides just flamers. Increase the points cost if that's too good but make it feel better at least. We're rolling to hit twice before also rolling to wound and then also them possibly getting an armor save (and then also them possibly getting feel no pain). That's a really good point. If I can do some quick mathhammer, let me see how battle cannons compare against . . . let's go with the thread favorite, an unstoppable horde of Hormagants. At 1d6 attacks, the Russ does an average of 3.5 attacks with its Battle Cannon. It has a 4+ BS, so it hits with an average of 1.75 of them. Str 8 doubles and exceeds Toughness 3, so that lets the Russ wound on a 2+. This means we get 1.46 average hits wound. At a 6+ save, we go to 1.21 average hits left unsaved. These deal an average of 1.5 wounds per attack, for an average of ~1.81 wounds delivered. This means the Leman Russ' main cannon can fire into a horde of space bugs and blow up one of them, maybe two if its accuracy is particularly on point. It is also capable of lightly poking at the armor on other vehicles. Now, lets use the Flamer style rules for battle cannons, ignoring the 4+ BS that chips away so many of the Russ' wounds. 3.5 attacks delivered on average, wounding 5/6ths of the time and being saved against 1/6th of the time. 3.5 * (5/6) * (5/6) gives us a final average of 2.43 hits wounding, which is a far sunnier outlook for what is supposed to be a main battle cannon. Multiply by 1.5 average wounds, and you're dealing about 3.65 wounds on average. Now you're blowing up two Termies per turn, or putting fairly large dents in your average light vehicle. I really don't know why they didn't do that for all former template weapons, honestly. As is, the roll is just another layer of randomness in a game where you're already flinging tons of dice. It would make cannons, grenades and other explosives far more useful, rather than just being the poor man's plasma or melta. The Bee fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 07:43
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Can I gt a battle cannon that fires gaunts at poo poo?
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Jun 27, 2017 07:48
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Basilisks seem sweet again at least.
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Jun 27, 2017 07:49
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JBP posted:Can I gt a battle cannon that fires gaunts at poo poo? Now that would be a great Tyranid model. The rocket-propelled Tervigon. Fires Hormagants at your enemy's face instead of laying an orderly set of Termagants down.
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Jun 27, 2017 07:51
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JBP posted:I like the new rules, but the random elements really aggravate me. Dice rolling?
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Jun 27, 2017 08:07
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Serotonin posted:Dice rolling? Randomised output where you don't have a baseline expectation of what damage a hit will cause. The battle cannon is a good example. Don't be facetious please.
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Jun 27, 2017 08:13
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chutche2 posted:Also, adding more people to my ignore list. Haha gently caress, I may shitpost but you are the trashest loving poster I've seen in TG for the 5 or so years I've been here. Bring back Hollismason.
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Jun 27, 2017 08:58
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The Bee posted:That's a really good point. If I can do some quick mathhammer, let me see how battle cannons compare against . . . let's go with the thread favorite, an unstoppable horde of Hormagants. On the subject of mathshammer I made a little Excel spreadsheet which automates a lot of this stuff. If I understand Google Drive correctly I think you can download it here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B825ABhvq4tVaWNTajI5TEN6S0E A lot of the formulas are ugly as gently caress but it seems to be functional and cover most bases that I can think of. Living Image fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 09:41
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chutche2 posted:Hey, since you seem knowledgeable about tau, my friend is getting into 40k and wants a tau army. I'm pushing him towards 1-2 start collecting boxes, and the pathfinder + devilfish box. He's wanting a ghostkeel and stealth suits. Do you have any advice for him? I've asked before, but that was before 8th dropped and now people seem to have a better idea of how tau works. Should I have him build his fire warriors as breachers or the other one? 2 getting started boxes and a optimized pathfinder box are exactly what I started with! I did ok with it in the 2 games of 7th I was able to play before the transition. It's not hard to turn pathfinders into fire warriors, by the way. The FW kit comes with extra shoulder pads meant for breachers, so you can slap those on any extra pathfinders and count em as FW with carbines. It's a thought!
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Jun 27, 2017 11:14
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Man, have you guys checked out the Chaos Decimator yet? It's pretty loving solid stats wise and rather than having a chance of getting back up when it dies, it instead regenerates 1 wound a turn. The Soul Burner petard also inflicts mortal wounds, though once per round if you roll a 1 you do a mortal wound to yourself.
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Jun 27, 2017 12:42
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If battle cannons had the basilisk ability where you roll two dice and take the highest I think it'd at least feel a lot better using them.
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Jun 27, 2017 12:59
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panascope posted:If battle cannons had the basilisk ability where you roll two dice and take the highest I think it'd at least feel a lot better using them. Agreed. It feels strange that something that used to put down a pie plate now has the same number of shots as a frag missile.
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Jun 27, 2017 13:11
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