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Elric of Melniboné is a great looking glass into 1970s fantasy. Roger Zelazny too. You can see their fingerprints decades later.
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Jun 13, 2017 21:36
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Rime posted:Covenant is a bitter rear end in a top hat who gets hit by a car, wakes up in fantasyland, realizes it's all a dream and does some hosed up poo poo because he believes nothing is real. Turns out it is real, and he waffles a back and forth between reality and fantasy for another 9 books while remaining a hugely lovely person. Having read all the Thomas Covenant books a few months ago, and then failing to describe them to people, I might have to print this out as the best summary I've seen yet.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:00
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Corvinus posted:Wew lads, that's a spicy take. So what is the point?
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Jun 13, 2017 23:50
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You all forgot to mention that Thomas Covenant has leprosy, he's a ~*literal*~ leper. 
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Jun 14, 2017 02:46
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Well yes, anything that's described as a "deconstruction" is generally a good thing to avoid. he said, bad opinionedly Deconstruction is good when it's done with skill and forethought rather than "actually the good guy is the bad guy and you are bad for identifying with them! ~edgyyyyyy~"
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Jun 14, 2017 14:04
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The philosophical practice is interesting. The pseudo-literary term, on the other hand, is non-sensical unless you think on the level of cliches and tropes, so any fiction that also operates on that mindset is best to be avoided.
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Jun 14, 2017 15:13
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If deconstruction is a critical technique it seems dubious to imagine it has much of a place in a narrative. I suppose it's possible to have a critical narrative of some sort, but I don't think you're ever going to see that in any book that ends up a mass market paperback.
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Jun 14, 2017 15:56
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The pseudo-literary term, on the other hand, is non-sensical unless you think on the level of cliches and tropes, so any fiction that also operates on that mindset is best to be avoided. Yes I too avoid all fiction that pays any attention to "tropes" or "cliches" or "ideas anybody else has ever had that influence the genre". Deconstruction is good because it forces you to examine things you normally take for granted. Maybe it's just ~my opinion~, but I think that it's good to have my preconceptions challenged on occasion. Hell, that's half the reason I read your posts.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:22
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You know, I'm not sure you two mean the same thing when you say "deconstruction". Which would make arguing its merits somewhat silly.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:31
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Yeah I'm getting that feeling
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Jun 14, 2017 18:35
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There's two uses of the term "deconstruction" in a literary context. First, there's the philosophical practice associated with Jacques Derrida. Second, there's the nonsense used by genre fans who haven't even read Derrida. For a good laugh, read through the TvTropes definition of the term.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:40
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:There's two uses of the term "deconstruction" in a literary context. Judging by the wikipedia article on Deconstruction, you're being pedantic.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:54
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The definition used by genre fans has no wikipedia article, which is rather telling. e: Incomplete list of things that have Wikipedia pages, unlike 'genre deconstruction': - Criticism - Running - Knuckles the Echidna BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 19:01
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I think I just haven't experienced this "genre fiction fan" definition, hence my confusion. That or I'm not taking the misguided notion of a few writers as representative of the entire genre
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Jun 14, 2017 19:18
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Preoccupation with "cliches" and "tropes" in general is stupid and indicates that you're not reading enough real literature in the first place. A mature reader will recognize that literature, like all art, is a tool used to convey understanding of the human experience and it's any facets. Any "tropes" and "cliches" are just a by-product of that. Genre works especially tends towards tropes and cliches because they're suitable for formula, and thus hackwork. Here the sentiment that the formula is 'the point' of the story begins to appear. They become reified, treated as a concrete thing rather than an artificial product. Playing with the formula becomes the height of sophistication in this mindset. TvTropes represents the logical end-point of preoccupation with cliches and tropes, where all stories are misread as being formed of distinctive building blocks. The actual form of the art becomes obscured - an author having a distinct style for example is reduced to a 'trope' ("Signature Style").
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Jun 14, 2017 19:31
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This is often expressed when fledgling fantasy writers become obsessed with creating magic systems before they think about what sort of story they want to tell.
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Jun 14, 2017 19:51
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I don't think anybody is arguing that TVTropes isn't ridiculous, but I also don't think that taking into account recurring patterns in a medium is stupid. There exists a middle ground, wherein people can use elements common to the medium in their work and have the use of those common elements studied without the belief that the work is just a loosely combined hack job of tropes/cliches/et cetera.
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Jun 14, 2017 19:51
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ChickenWing posted:I don't think anybody is arguing that TVTropes isn't ridiculous, but I also don't think that taking into account recurring patterns in a medium is stupid You're using the TvTropes definition of trope, so yes, it is stupid.
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Jun 14, 2017 19:57
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You're using the TvTropes definition of trope, so yes, it is stupid. I would say that preoccupation with them, as you said, might be stupid. Deriding a work, or dismissing it out of hand, just because it ticks too many boxes on some arbitrary trope list is silly. But that's not to say that addressing cliches itself is stupid. There are ways to use cliches cleverly, or to subvert them in a neat way or something. Knowing them can help sometimes.
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Jun 14, 2017 20:02
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There has got to be some KU book out there that just for the description of the book has a list of all the tropes it uses, I need this in my life right now.
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Jun 14, 2017 20:10
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The philosophical practice is interesting. The pseudo-literary term, on the other hand, is non-sensical unless you think on the level of cliches and tropes, so any fiction that also operates on that mindset is best to be avoided. Just out of curiosity how do you feel about something like Watchmen? Of course it was actually about something, it wasn't merely "what if superheroes were totally real man" like Zack Snyder thinks but it's definitely influenced by a genre's... language I guess I'll call it.
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Jun 14, 2017 22:18
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It's a neat dark little twist on superhero comics, but suffers from being a superhero comic. Also ZACK SNYDER alert!!!
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Jun 14, 2017 22:25
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:It's a neat dark little twist on superhero comics, but suffers from being a superhero comic. My question was more if you consider it to be an illegitimate use of "deconstruction" or if you think it qualifies as such at all.
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Jun 14, 2017 22:35
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:It's a neat dark little twist on superhero comics, but suffers from being a superhero comic.
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Jun 14, 2017 22:45
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Lightning Lord posted:My question was more if you consider it to be an illegitimate use of "deconstruction" or if you think it qualifies as such at all. The whole concept of "genre deconstruction" is already clunky because it puts so much stock in the importance on genre. It has a kind of stunting, inward-looking effect, I think. Ravenfood posted:What the gently caress does Snyder have to do with a comic book published in 1986? He directed the movie adaptation. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 23:10
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Corvinus posted:Wew lads, that's a spicy take. But Elric of Melniboné loving owns and Moorcock is one of the titans of the fuckin' genre. 
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Jun 15, 2017 06:11
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Rime posted:But Elric of Melniboné loving owns and Moorcock is one of the titans of the fuckin' genre. Those are true, yes. Covenant isn't a """deconstruction""" (in the made-up Troper definition). Leprosy is curable now (drug trials actually being done while the first trilogy was written), and infection rates have plummeted but for millennia it was a slow, horribly disfiguring, and socially isolating death sentence. Donaldson plays a lot of the genre trappings straight, the difference being: what if the dude transported into a portal fantasy acted realistically, for a person with a horrible disease that has to remain 100% mindful of their environment and body, while also having his adaptive behaviours and beliefs undermined by the Land and its inhabitants. Donaldson isn't trying to poo poo on genre fantasy. Corvinus fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Jun 15, 2017 |
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Jun 15, 2017 07:47
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The whole concept of "genre deconstruction" is already clunky because it puts so much stock in the importance on genre. It has a kind of stunting, inward-looking effect, I think. I think while we might disagree on the legitimacy of "genre deconstruction" or the worth of some examples, we can probably agree that the Kingkiller Chronicles aren't, and if they were intended as such they're a spectacular failure. Corvinus posted:Donaldson isn't trying to poo poo on genre fantasy. I'm not sure deconstruction in the sense of say, Watchmen is really making GBS threads on anything in the way tropers mean. Which usually amounts to a long drawn out version of "Star Wars is dumb and bad because there's no sound in space IRL" Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Jun 15, 2017 |
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Jun 15, 2017 07:50
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The tenth anniversary cover is a huge mess, which I suppose is an accurate representation of the text within. http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2017/06/10th-anniversary-edition-cover-reveal/
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Jun 27, 2017 22:31
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I'm listening to Episode 7 of Beyond Writing and one of the hosts mentioned Rothfuss as a great writer along with the esteemed Laurell K Hamilton, "a great author who writes fun stories."
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Jun 27, 2017 22:53
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You don't like leather-fetish bdsm werewolf fanfic urban fantasy?
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Jun 27, 2017 22:56
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BananaNutkins posted:You don't like leather-fetish bdsm werewolf fanfic urban fantasy? I plead the fifth
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Jun 27, 2017 22:57
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Witch Tits: Blood Omen: That Time of The Month Best seller
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Jun 27, 2017 22:59
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BananaNutkins posted:The tenth anniversary cover is a huge mess, which I suppose is an accurate representation of the text within. what the gently caress is that cover there is no reason half of the elements in that lovely composite image should even be there
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Jun 28, 2017 02:16
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HIJK posted:I'm listening to Episode 7 of Beyond Writing and one of the hosts mentioned Rothfuss as a great writer along with the esteemed Laurell K Hamilton, "a great author who writes fun stories." This is an unfair denigration of Hamilton's writing skills. Rothfuss can only dream of having his self-insert fail meaningfully.
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Jun 28, 2017 03:28
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BananaNutkins posted:The tenth anniversary cover is a huge mess, which I suppose is an accurate representation of the text within. That cover froze me. I mean, I had nothing for my eyes to latch onto. There's angry stoneface front and center, and a wtf is that oh a splintered lute, and a bird on the lute, and and and. It's just this big muddled fuckfest of imagery and nothing fits anything else.
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Jun 28, 2017 03:42
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Reene posted:what the gently caress is that cover Where were red birds or leaves ever a symbol of anything in the book? What is up with that screaming stone face? Why is there a long cord coming form the weirdly placed door knocker? Why is the brickwork in the back so irregular, not taking into account the weird arch up top there are 4-5 different shapes in the normal brick layer? Did Rothfuss design this and refuse any input since he massaged every visual aspect to perfection and the only valid criticism would be "it's perfect"?
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Jun 28, 2017 03:43
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pentyne posted:Did Rothfuss design this and refuse any input since he massaged every visual aspect to perfection and the only valid criticism would be "it's perfect"? Well, his pizza-delivery guy loved it.
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Jun 28, 2017 04:16
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I don't know that the previous cover for the book was any more related to the story, but this one is just an unmitigated mess. Wowzers. I don't really recognize any of the symbolism, but it sort of says a lot about the book that the main focus of the cover is the broken lute. Also, that font is very bad and the cover artist should be ashamed.
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Jun 28, 2017 14:33
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BananaNutkins posted:The tenth anniversary cover is a huge mess, which I suppose is an accurate representation of the text within. so instead of the next book in the trilogy, he got someone to do some illustrations and put a bunch of spergy footnotes into the ten-year-old first book cool cool
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Jun 28, 2017 19:37
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