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CourValant posted:Care to give us a preview? Just curious as to what this means, functionally and mechanics-wise? Losing a side torso with an XL engine in it cripples a `Mech, disabling it completely no matter how many slots the engine takes up. So Torso loss is as deadly to Clanners as anyone else. IS and Clan weapons share range and damage profiles. Minimum range is a flat +2, turning it into a "short range" medium range to screw over AC/2s and LRMs a little less. Anything with less than 3 hexes of short range (like LRMs, small lasers, and machine guns) has their short range bonus pushed out at least one additional hex. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 20:17
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PoptartsNinja posted:. . . so Torso loss is as deadly to Clanners as anyone else. So you've put IS and Clanners on equal footing. Will you be revising Zell as well? Because if not, that'll 'just' give the Clanners a weight and crit slot advantage? Unless you plan on overwhelming the IS with sheer BV?
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Jun 26, 2017 20:43
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Please have mercy on the poor Light Gauss Rifle and make it not completely useless.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:47
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PoptartsNinja posted:Losing a side torso with an XL engine in it cripples a `Mech, disabling it completely no matter how many slots the engine takes up. So Torso loss is as deadly to Clanners as anyone else. It's an interesting experiment but I think since BV is a thing and balances the Clans well enough it's a bit redundant. I think the main concerns of BTech balance are: 1. Most ballistic weapons are too bad relative for their cost in each era. In 3025-era play, ammo explosions are a huge bitch and because damage output from mechs is low, you'll probably die a death of a thousand TACs. 2. The way CV/mech fusion engines gain mass makes for some very strange and somewhat counterintuitive cost and effectiveness curves (like how an 80 ton 5/8 is in fact worse than a 75 ton 5/8). 3. Trap options (Ferro versus Endo, for example, or loving Heat Resistant Armor) I don't think DHS or superior Clan weapons are a problem except insofar as ballistic weapons don't sufficiently improve between 3025 and 3050 (and whereas Clan energy weapons improve a lot in range and damage, Clan ballistics don't improve much in range and don't improve at all in damage). If Clan ballistics acted like Clan missiles (no minimum range, half weight and crits compared to the IS version) I suspect people would be talking a lot less about how overpowered DHS are because they'd be bitching about the 2xUAC20 2xLBX20 Annihilator IIC.
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Jun 26, 2017 21:08
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MJ12 posted:It's an interesting experiment but I think since BV is a thing and balances the Clans well enough it's a bit redundant. It's an experiment, I've done them before and I'll do them again. It's also a preview, not the entirety of what I'm looking at.
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Jun 26, 2017 21:13
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PoptartsNinja posted:Losing a side torso with an XL engine in it cripples a `Mech, disabling it completely no matter how many slots the engine takes up. So Torso loss is as deadly to Clanners as anyone else. So, the Clans advantage is smaller guns (but beside that, same), and more space and weight in comparison to IS? MJ12 posted:2. The way CV/mech fusion engines gain mass makes for some very strange and somewhat counterintuitive cost and effectiveness curves (like how an 80 ton 5/8 is in fact worse than a 75 ton 5/8). ...Why it is a balance problem? That some speed profiles suit certain weights better? That heavier mechs shouldn't try to be fast? I think it's "working as intended". Why designs that are just 5 ton "oversized" (as opposed to completely unsuited, like Charger" exits is another question, though.
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Jun 26, 2017 21:26
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PoptartsNinja posted:It's an experiment, I've done them before and I'll do them again. It's also a preview, not the entirety of what I'm looking at. Hey, I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just giving my opinion wrt the main faultlines of BTech. Gun Jam posted:...Why it is a balance problem? That some speed profiles suit certain weights better? That heavier mechs shouldn't try to be fast? Dropships and Warships work by having just a percentage of their mass required for every additional MP they gain, and that works out fine because when you get larger, each extra point of MP means a lot less guns and armor. For example, if each Walk MP was, say, 6% of a mech's mass, halved if XL, a 6/9 100 tonner would be eating 36 engine tons and free up 18 tons for guns and armor if they go down to 3/5, while a 20 tonner would free up a mere 3.6 tons. There's other ways to incentivize larger mechs using smaller engines as well, e.g. say that an engine starts off at 3 critical slots, and every X MP of engine adds +1 critical slot to the engine size-i.e. a larger mech becomes more vulnerable as its engine gets bigger and suffers from crit loss. If stuff like MASC/Superchargers are made to have no failure chance on the first turn, as another possible random change, and are based off of chassis weight, this also incentivizes lighter mechs to be faster and heavier mechs slower, but it allows the Charger and Gargoyle to be much more usable. It's unnecessary and because the curve isn't smooth it results in things like a 5/8 75 tonner with a non-XL being adequate and a 5/8 80 tonner with a non-XL being very bad. The way Dropships/Warship engines work leads to hilarious results though-for example the 2600 ton Dragau is more maneuverable than several fighters less than 2% of its size.
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Jun 26, 2017 22:02
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Scintilla posted:Please have mercy on the poor Light Gauss Rifle and make it not completely useless. NEVER. The Light Gauss Rifle exists as a punishment!
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Jun 27, 2017 06:22
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Defiance Industries posted:NEVER. The Light Gauss Rifle exists as a punishment! The LGR exists in a weird place. It's technically way worse than most weapons. And yet there are LGR-centric units that are not all that bad at all. The OTL-7M isn't top tier or anything, but it can derp around at medium range and be a massive pain. The LGauss Vanquisher variant is actually pretty solid in a c3i net. The Main Gauche XL is a cheap and annoying cavalry tank. The Hawk Moth is annoying as hell. I think there's a tank variant (is it a Partisan? I forget) that has three of them. And so on. It's weird - I would never deliberately design something with an LGR, but there are stock units that use it that I don't entirely hate and that can be downright awful to actually face, simply because of the range brackets.
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Jun 27, 2017 07:15
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Fraction Jackson posted:The LGR exists in a weird place. The Light Gauss Rifle is one of those weapons which is on paper very bad but in practice ends up in a surprisingly good place.
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Jun 27, 2017 08:41
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MJ12 posted:The Light Gauss Rifle is one of those weapons which is on paper very bad but in practice ends up in a surprisingly good place. That's a better way of saying it. However you slice it, having a bunch of LGRs and some mobility leads to good things, even if the math says it's not great in terms of BV or damage. Range brackets are a hell of a thing.
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Jun 27, 2017 09:15
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BV is directly calculated from range brackets, after all. If you're not using them you're not gonna get what you paid for.
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Jun 27, 2017 09:29
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In an age where most 'Mechs have more than 10 points combined armor and structure in the head the LGR is a straight upgrade to the AC/10 in heat, range, and ammo for slight concessions in damage and a minimum range. It sucks really bad compared to Clan and IS Gauss, but do do most other ballistic weapons.
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Jun 27, 2017 18:29
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Strobe posted:In an age where most 'Mechs have more than 10 points combined armor and structure in the head the LGR is a straight upgrade to the AC/10 in heat, range, and ammo for slight concessions in damage and a minimum range. It sucks really bad compared to Clan and IS Gauss, but do do most other ballistic weapons. It also sucks pretty bad on paper compared to the cERLL, but again, most things do. Ditto the LB/10x, though that's less obvious. Basically everything that is similar in either range or weight seems like a better choice than the LGR. So I think maybe that just leads a lot of people to write the LGR off completely and avoid using them entirely, and so they never get a feel for how some LGR-based units are actually pretty nice.
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Jun 27, 2017 20:32
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Fraction Jackson posted:It also sucks pretty bad on paper compared to the cERLL, but again, most things do. Ditto the LB/10x, though that's less obvious. It doesn't put out much damage, but it's BV-cheap and easy to mount. When you've got a dozen of them firing at you through a C3 link, it doesn't matter that it only does half the damage of a regular gauss rifle.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:07
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And, importantly, doing so from short range and outside of ECM bubbles because it has short range for days. It does more damage at longer range than any single other weapon in the game besides the Clan ER Large. That's got to count for something.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:17
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I like light gauss. It's like a bullshit large laser with no heat. Obviously I like real gauss but the mechs with dual LGR work just as well for me.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:54
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I like the LGR too, it allows me to make the 'Bbbzzzzzjjjuuuuuuu!!!' noise at the table every time I fire it. Every. Time. Favorite gauss weapon though is the Silver Bullet, because hypersonic shotguns are neat.
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Jun 27, 2017 22:36
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CourValant posted:Favorite gauss weapon though is the Silver Bullet, because hypersonic shotguns are neat. You'll never guess who invented it. You're welcome
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Jun 27, 2017 22:55
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Defiance Industries posted:You'll never guess who invented it. Hah, I know exactly who invented it! I bleed Lyran Blue, thank you very much; I'm from New Kyoto, with the armored space bears! (smile) ***** EDIT ***** By the way, where's FractionJackson? He's the one who does the Madden, yeah? Time to collect, my friend. (smile)
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Jun 27, 2017 23:09
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I mean, the match has to actually start first
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Jun 27, 2017 23:12
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Xarbala posted:I mean, the match has to actually start first Yeah, I'm just overeager is all. (smile) That, and Madden can do the pre-game show when PTN releases the maps and the scenario units.
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Jun 27, 2017 23:24
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CourValant posted:Hah, I know exactly who invented it! I was speaking as a spokesman for Defiance Industries, of course
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Jun 27, 2017 23:46
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Defiance Industries posted:I was speaking as a spokesman for Defiance Industries, of course Not a problem! I'll be happy to fill out any customer satisfaction surveys you might have! (smile)
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Jun 28, 2017 00:00
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I'm pretty sure uninformed nonsense would be entirely in character, so I think FJ can start whenever he feels comfortable doing so.
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Jun 28, 2017 00:24
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Never to early to criticise the Horses' Dee-fence.
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Jun 28, 2017 00:34
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AJ_Impy posted:Never to early to criticise the Horses' Dee-fence. See, this is the twist for this mission. We're the Horses. In Eponas. All the Eponas. 
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Jun 28, 2017 00:47
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CourValant posted:By the way, where's FractionJackson? He's the one who does the Madden, yeah? I'm waiting until we at least see the map. In the meantime I've been mainlining all the NFL Films music. You know, for inspiration.
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Jun 28, 2017 01:29
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Less a teaser and more "my actual plan" since can't work on anything else right now: Minimum range is a flat +2 penalty like medium range. Standard PPCs are unchanged, they're still a great all-round weapon. Slightly buffed by the minimum range change. Standard laser weapons receive a -1 bonus to-hit. Oh what the Clans don't use them? Sucks to be them. - 3/5/8 damage for 1/3/8 heat Heavy lasers have their to-hit penalty removed, Improved Heavy Lasers get the -1 to-hit of standard lasers to make up for being made out of C4. - 6/10/16 damage for whatever the usual heat is ER weapons (including the PPC) use the Clan range values but have IS heat and damage profiles. - 3/5/8(10) damage for 2/5/12(15) heat Pulse weapons have the Clan heat and (ER Laser) damage values, but use IS ranges. Pulse weapons lose their -2 to-hit bonus. I may tweak their range brackets a little. Pulse lasers of all sizes count as burst weapons for anti-infantry work. - 5/7/10 damage for 2/4/10 heat LRMs basically work like Thunderbolts firing bigger missiles rather than firing swarms of trash (we have MRMs for that). - LRMs deal 1-4 5 damage hits depending on size, making the LRM-5 less objectively poo poo while making the LRM-20 a little worse overall. I'm still torn on range but they will either: - Artemis IV is a -1 bonus to-hit. Artemis IV is a -1 bonus to-hit and a +1 bonus on the missile table. - I'm torn on range but I will either: - - A) use the IS minimum, short, and medium range values with a 2 mapsheet maximum for long range (I can't make maps bigger than that anyway). - - B) Have their range brackets straight-up reversed giving them a +4 penalty at short range, the standard +2 at medium, and a +0 at long range to represent their targeting gear being better able to lock on and engage long-range targets. Most likely I will choose option B because it will turn LRMs into King poo poo of long range support weapon mountain. All the extra range in the world isn't meaningful if you're only reliable out to 7 hexes (However, option A is much better if C3 networks are in play). SRMs - SRMs use Clan Streak SRM ranges. They have more fuel since they don't need any fancy guidance systems. - Streak SRMs use standard SRM ranges. You want to auto-hit all missiles Clanners, you'll have to get a little closer. Autocannons all do (up to) 10 damage per turn. Standard and LBX Autocannons receive a -1 bonus to-hit. Standard autocannons get will probably be getting Clan LBX autocannon ranges. - The AC/2 does up to 5 2 damage hits, but like the standard LRM-5 it's probably only getting 3. - The AC/5 does up to 2 5 damage hits, like the current Ultra A/Cs. - The AC/10 does a single 10 damage hit. - The AC/20 does 2 "automatic" 10 damage hits. You still have to hit with it but it doesn't roll on the missile table. LBX Autocannons are functionally identical, but because they're smoothbore they don't get the standard autocannon's -1 bonus to-hit unless they're firing cluster rounds. LB-2X Autocannons suffer a -2 penalty on the missile tables for solid slug and cluster rounds, LB-5X reduces this to a -1 penalty, (which effectively only matters for the -2X and -5X class). LB-20X Slug ammo does a single 20 damage hit. I'm tempted to reduce them to standard autocannon ranges to force the Clans into shorter engagement ranges. The goal for LBX Autocannons was to make them worse than standard autocannons at being standard autocannons while still being the best critseekers in the game. Ultra Autocannons get the AeroTech treatment and have their total damage multiplied by 1.5 (so the AC/2 hits for 5x3 damage, the AC/5 hits for 8 and then for 7, and both the UAC/10 and UAC/20 are potential headcappers again at 15 and 15x2 respectively). They do not get any To-Hit bonuses use the standard autocannon ranges again to force the Clans to engage at slightly shorter ranges. HVACs... I have no idea yet. I need to review what they actually do (aside from waste your precious tonnage and BV). A single ton of autocannon ammunition is enough for 10 rounds of sustained fire for a single autocannon of all classes and types except the class 20 autocannon, which gets 5 rounds instead. Every autocannon gets a 'free' ton of ammo per gun (which would give the JagerMech a respectable 15 turns of AC/2 fire instead of the hilarious 5 it would have instead, and 20 turns of AC/5 fire instead of 10). If I do build ammo into the gun the last critical slot will always be the ammo slot and will be subject to ammo explosions as normal. This is also a buff to lighter `Mechs carrying heavier autocannons like the Hunchback which gets 15 turns of fire instead of 10, and would still have five rounds of fire if it lost its ammo-filled left torso. The ammo built into the gun is used last (or rather, the ammo bins constantly work to refill it). Gauss Rifles are unchanged. I thought about giving all Gauss Rifles the heavy gauss's dropoff (If I did it'd be 20/15/10 for standard, 15/10/5 for light, 25/20/15 for heavy), I just don't see that it's necessary. Gauss Rifles are what other ballistic weapons should be aspiring to be and I think giving standard rifled autocannons a to-hit bonus and a range extension is probably sufficient enough. Gauss Rifles don't get free ammo, they don't need it. Weapons with a 3 hex range like small lasers, machine guns, and flamers do not have medium or long range brackets. Weapons with a 6 hex range like ER Small Lasers, Light Machineguns, ER Flamers, and whatever else (maybe `Mech Tasers?) only have short and medium brackets. Holy crap you guys I did it, small lasers aren't completely worthless! Machine Guns of all classes fire five-shot bursts just like the Autocannon/2. They don't get free ammo like autocannons but who cares a ton of machinegun ammo is still 40 turns of sustained fire. LMGs do not fire more shots, HMGs do not fire less. Rather than being burst-fire weapons they simply add an extra hit when attacking infantry to account for flying shrapnel (so rather than being 2-12 anti-infantry damage, a standard machinegun is 4-12, while an HMG upgrades from 3-18 to 6-18). Holy crap machine guns can effectively critseek? Flamers do both heat and damage simultaneously but are still probably bad.  Ammo explosions do a fixed 15 no matter what type of ammo took the hit. Weapon explosions deal their weapon damage up to a maximum of 15 for all weapons except the Heavy Gauss Rifle which still explodes for 25. Pilot hits happen as normal. This is intended to still be dangerous without being utterly devastating to units without CASE. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 03:45
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Only thing that jumps out at me as not great is pulse lasers are no longer worth using at all for just about any reason. Small Pulses, maybe, but IS Large Pulse Lasers are even more garbage in here than they are in the normal game, and they're hot garbage in the normal game. Gain two damage for two tons and two heat, and be less accurate on top? Blech. My vote for LRMs is option A, because I think option B is going to result in LRMs not only being king poo poo of long range support weapon mountain, but also king poo poo of everything mountain, with things like Archers (or god forbid Krakens) disassembling entire 'Mechs before they get into effective range. EDIT: give HVACs the next-lighter caliber Clan autocannon range, and then make them not explode (but still jam on 2s) and not go super-ultra like you did here. Boom, instant useful. HVAC/2s get 13/26/40 range brackets since there is no Clan LB-1X AC. Strobe fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 03:54
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Speaking of jumping out, how about a boost for jump jet melee attack? 
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Jun 28, 2017 03:55
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Strobe posted:Only thing that jumps out at me as not great is pulse lasers are no longer worth using at all for just about any reason. I may be over-nerfing them, but when I say "adjusted brackets" I mean something like this: 
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Jun 28, 2017 04:32
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Strobe posted:Only thing that jumps out at me as not great is pulse lasers are no longer worth using at all for just about any reason. Small Pulses, maybe, but IS Large Pulse Lasers are even more garbage in here than they are in the normal game, and they're hot garbage in the normal game. Gain two damage for two tons and two heat, and be less accurate on top? Blech. IS pulses are actually quite fine in practice. They just seem not so much because clan pulses are broken as hell, but IS pulseboats are great in normal BTech. And not just jumpy pulseboats - even stuff like the Rakshasa-2A wrecks face. That being said I kind of agree that with the changes to standard lasers with these tweaks it makes pulses less attractive. quote:My vote for LRMs is option A, because I think option B is going to result in LRMs not only being king poo poo of long range support weapon mountain, but also king poo poo of everything mountain, with things like Archers (or god forbid Krakens) disassembling entire 'Mechs before they get into effective range. On the other hand, with option B, any OPFOR that can move 5/8 or better probably gets to medium range before you can kill anything and then murders you up close. PoptartsNinja posted:I may be over-nerfing them, but when I say "adjusted brackets" I mean something like this: That second set of brackets seems like it makes the LPL a better snub-nose PPC. Like, massively better. Maybe just give them standard laser brackets (so you're basically paying tonnage/heat for damage/extra bonus)?
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Jun 28, 2017 04:44
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Fraction Jackson posted:That second set of brackets seems like it makes the LPL a better snub-nose PPC. Like, massively better. Maybe just give them standard laser brackets (so you're basically paying tonnage/heat for damage/extra bonus)? I wrote "keep" when I should've written "lose." To-hit bonuses are really good and the one pulse lasers got was simply too good. I'm not sold on giving standard lasers a to-hit bonus either if they're working as a middle ground between ERs and pulse lasers, I was sorta jotting down anything that came into my head while working. My other "solution" to the AC/2 problem is to swap its range brackets with the AC/5 and then make them both do 5 damage. I'm just not sure that's any better considering.
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Jun 28, 2017 04:51
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Is there any compelling reason to not just get rid of the AC/2?
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Jun 28, 2017 05:08
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paragon1 posted:Is there any compelling reason to not just get rid of the AC/2? I don't want to rework every `Mech that uses one.
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Jun 28, 2017 05:10
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This is gonna be a pretty interesting experiment.PoptartsNinja posted:I don't want to rework every `Mech that uses one. Fair enough reason to me.
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Jun 28, 2017 05:15
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PoptartsNinja posted:I wrote "keep" when I should've written "lose." To-hit bonuses are really good and the one pulse lasers got was simply too good. I'm not sold on giving standard lasers a to-hit bonus either if they're working as a middle ground between ERs and pulse lasers, I was sorta jotting down anything that came into my head while working. I could see dropping the pulse bonus to -1 and standards at even as being a fair compromise, but I think having pulses at even makes them pretty worthless even with wonky brackets given the weight disparity. Especially since you have ER weapons using Clan ranges...even with a snub-nose-like 8/10/12 range bracket for the large pulse, why would anyone use that over a lighter 8/15/25 ERLL? Also, if you have standard lasers at -1, and standard ACs/Artemis IV at -1, even pulse at -2 is comparatively less unbalanced simply because you have more ways to generate bonuses anyway. Overall that makes for a faster game in general. Overall I like a lot of the changes, at least as a "this would be fun to mess around with" sort of thing, and the flipped-brackets LRMs seem like they'd be massively fun to experiment with. The AC changes seem neat as hell too. But the pulse thing...I dunno. Granted, 1. it's your overhaul, so do what you want, and 2. pulses, especially clan ones, do need to be less nutty compared to other weapons. But stripping the bonus while also giving bonuses to other stuff might be too far in the other direction even if you give them goofy brackets. Edit: Although, there's the counterpoint to the above, in which no bonus but goofy brackets might actually make IS jumpy pulse boats better in some ways (but not anything else with a LPL). With those example brackets for instance, imagine a PXH-3PL or FS9-OB or heaven forbid a TR1 can just jump around at 8 hexes and be at short range forever while being practically unhittable, being even more like the rear end in a top hat cousin of the old 3025 Griffin Hunt... Fraction Jackson fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 07:21
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PoptartsNinja posted:LBX Autocannons are functionally identical, but because they're smoothbore they don't get the standard autocannon's -1 bonus to-hit unless they're firing cluster rounds. IIRC, smoothbore tank cannons aren't less accurate than rifled ones. The majority of modern tanks use smoothbore cannons. nitpicking aside, I presume that if a weapon is not mentioned, it stays the same (ATM, Plasma, MRM)? Also, rotary autocannons - how they will work?
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Jun 28, 2017 09:10
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Gun Jam posted:IIRC, smoothbore tank cannons aren't less accurate than rifled ones. The majority of modern tanks use smoothbore cannons. Counterpoint: the LB-X autocannons need to be actually bad at something. Or at least not "best in show" compared to every other autocannon. Any weapon that wasn't mentioned probably won't matter for the terms of the mission. Edit: This spritework is going to kill me. I'm up way too late and I'm nowhere near done. I really need some help. This is what I'm shooting for:  If anyone has a free moment and wants to try a little coloring I'd really appreciate these being given the same treatment. I've already done the bits I intend to make 'glass' in blue, I just need the rest colored in from low/dark to high/light.       Anyone who can pitch in and do even one (or part of one) would be much appreciated. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 09:22
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