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Dr Pepper posted:So says people who don't get his probability works. I honestly have no idea how the Battle Tower actually works of course.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:12
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FPzero posted:Referring to your fangame as "Nintendo Hard" does not mean you have full license to be absolute bullshit with it. Half the old games that gave rise to that statement were bad game design from people who didn't know any better, so they're just staying true to form.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:43
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Bruceski posted:Half the old games that gave rise to that statement were bad game design from people who didn't know any better, so they're just staying true to form.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:46
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Commander Keene posted:It's not so much "didn't know any better" as it was "were handcuffed by console limitations" and "half of them were arcade ports". Nah, that was the other half.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:50
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Look, these are the same people who bitch that Gamefreak has made the rivals 'pussies' since Gary and Silver, because in their head, them missing the obvious Pokemon center right there when you enter town is an example of the game being assholish and ambushing you when you're super weak to beat up on you. Not, them being dumb children who didn't heal when obviously low on resources after a dungeon or missing the rest point you have to walk by in Silph Co. Or finishing up a battle in the Radio Tower and not stopping by the Pokemon Center. And that's why you get all the "LOL YOU'RE THE RIVAL" bullshit.
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Jun 27, 2017 20:04
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I just want to battle and hang out with my cool friend Barry, is that so wrong?
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Jun 27, 2017 20:36
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I like the friendly rivals better than the original assholes. I like having a rival character that I could theoretically get ice cream with after the Elite 4 tournament and play videogames with like buddies.  Hell the Gold/Silver/Crystal rival was hardcore enough, he stole his starter! That's pretty edgy...
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Jun 27, 2017 20:51
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Silver is actually my favorite of the rivals; he has the deepest character arc IMO. He starts out being single-mindedly focused on beating everyone else because he deems them as "weak", but after losing to you time after time, and eventually getting his metaphorical poo poo being thrown back in his face by Lance, he slowly comes to have enough respect for his pokemon to friendship-evolve a Crobat. But until then, he's not just on the same journey as you, he's literally battling with you because he thinks you're in his way. I also just learned a few days ago that's he's Giovanni's son, which blew my mind and means so much about him makes so much more sense.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:34
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I like the bit of depth to him added in HGSS where if you tried to sneak in using a Rocket costume, he gets mad - calling the protag weak for using an underhand tactic and rip the costume off.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:43
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Robindaybird posted:I like the bit of depth to him added in HGSS where if you tried to sneak in using a Rocket costume, he gets mad - calling the protag weak for using an underhand tactic and rip the costume off. The fandom has had a lot of fun with that one. I also liked how HGSS made "naming" him kind of make more sense. Even if he's like, "Whoops, dropped my ID!" and then walks off after getting it. Makes a lot more sense then him saying: "MY NAME IS ????"
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Jun 27, 2017 21:48
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BioEnchanted posted:I like the friendly rivals better than the original assholes. I like having a rival character that I could theoretically get ice cream with after the Elite 4 tournament and play videogames with like buddies. I think it definitely worked better with Hau than the batch before him, I'll say that up front. The thing is, the initial couple of rivals your motive was to take them down a peg. They were arrogant and sure they were better than you, you wanted to prove them wrong. The later games shifted to having friendly rivals, which meant that you were fighting people who you didn't have any particular issue with (except when they irritated you, which was never the good kind of being irritating. Less "I'm going to make you eat those words!" and more "Why don't you just go away?"). Losing was more difficult due to better mechanical balance, but winning felt like kicking a puppy. Hau is an improvement because he goes into fights for the fun of the fight, not because he needs to win. It's pointed out by others that he doesn't have the eye of the tiger most of the time, and he's fine with that. Beating him doesn't bother him, so it flows better with the rest of the game. Where X and Y had the players destroy every hope their so-called "friends" ever had without even trying, Hau's achieving his dreams by just hanging out with the player and Lillie while having good food. I'm fine with either the friendly rival or the "I'm going to make that smug rear end in a top hat regret being born" rival, but the game should be structured for it. And of course, they're all better than what we've been getting here.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:57
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Yeah, the X and Y friends were pretty much there, and despite your main rival being the serious competitor, even without using the hilariously OP EXP Share, he was little more than a speedbump and barely has any role in the storyline. Like Hau doesn't have the plot importance Lillie has, but he still somewhat keeps up, and one of the first that twigs onto the fact that Lillie's mom is kind of messed up before we fully see how much of a narcissistic headcase she is.
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Jun 27, 2017 22:11
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RyuHimora posted:Silver is actually my favorite of the rivals; he has the deepest character arc IMO. He starts out being single-mindedly focused on beating everyone else because he deems them as "weak", but after losing to you time after time, and eventually getting his metaphorical poo poo being thrown back in his face by Lance, he slowly comes to have enough respect for his pokemon to friendship-evolve a Crobat. But until then, he's not just on the same journey as you, he's literally battling with you because he thinks you're in his way. I also just learned a few days ago that's he's Giovanni's son, which blew my mind and means so much about him makes so much more sense. Speaking of Red and Blue, it was good to see them in SuMo. I hope they do stuff like that in future games, whether it's Silver trying to talk/beat some sense into young evil team members or Giovanni chilling in a remote area hermit-style or whatever.
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Jun 27, 2017 22:22
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Hau had such wonderful enthusiasm and just wanted to see great battles, regardless of who wins. He's gonna make a good starter island Kahuna someday with that attitude.
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Jun 27, 2017 22:30
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Lance of Llanwyln posted:
I agree - actually, lot the Team Skull grunts would've been perfect for a more mature Silver to talk out of a criminal life given how many are pretty much despondent teenagers/young adults that felt like they hit a wall and gave up. Lillie would be cute for running a Pokemon daycare or accessory/grooming shop.
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Jun 27, 2017 22:32
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I'm a little late, but I'm putting serious money down that ZEL is straight up 3 different scientists who were fused together after a PULSE malfunction because there's way too much potential angst to be exacted from WHAT HAS SCIENCE WROUGHT for the Reborn team to believably resist.
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Jun 27, 2017 22:40
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Commander Keene posted:It's not so much "didn't know any better" as it was "were handcuffed by console limitations" and "half of them were arcade ports". Don't forget "This game has only a half hour of content if optimally played and you paid 80 dollars for it"
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Jun 27, 2017 22:55
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LightningKimba posted:I just want to battle and hang out with my cool friend Barry, is that so wrong? Barry's the coolest and best rival so there's nothing wrong with wanting that.
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Jun 27, 2017 23:06
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Dexie posted:Barry's the coolest and best rival so there's nothing wrong with wanting that. This is a factual statement
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Jun 27, 2017 23:52
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BioEnchanted posted:Hell the Gold/Silver/Crystal rival was hardcore enough, he stole his starter! That's pretty edgy... In HGSS, once you hit post game, there's a point where Professor Elm says that Silver actually tried to return the starter he stole, and Elm said "no, you keep it, it already likes being with you". That, on top of Golbat evolving into Crobat, showed that he had turned the proverbial corner. This actually became a recurring thing in Pokemon games; Maxie/Archie in Gen 3, Cyrus (who claimed to be literally emotionless) in Gen 4, and even Lysandre (who was literally plotting the genocide of all Pokemon by the end of the game) in Gen 6 all have a Golbat that evolves into a Crobat by the time of the last fight against them. And then there's the contrast with Ghetis, where his signature Hydreigon in B2W2 knows Frustration at full power. It is incredibly difficult to even mechanically keep Frustration at full power unless you actively try to abuse your Pokemon as much as possible, so it's another way the game shows how completely and irredeemably evil he is. There's also the contrast with Lusamine, who goes too far in the other direction and shows what happens when you prioritize Pokemon over everything else.
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Jun 28, 2017 00:36
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the Orb of Zot posted:There's also the contrast with Lusamine, who goes too far in the other direction and shows what happens when you prioritize Pokemon over everything else. Lusamine is interesting in that she prioritize pokemon only as an extension of herself, she has zero qualms freezing pokemon that no longer serve her purpose to keep them in their most beautiful state - and she has pokemon generally considered pretty, this also extends to how she treats her children, once they stopped acting according to how she wants them to, she rejects them. She really has the hallmarks of a narcissistic parent - honestly, Lillie and her brother have behaviors of emotionally abused children, and I wouldn't be surprised until her brother ran away that Lillie was the golden child and her brother the unfavorite so Lusamine can torment to feed her ego. tl;dr Lusamine is basically Mother Gothel in a Pokemon game
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Jun 28, 2017 00:42
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Waffleman_ posted:Don't forget "This game has only a half hour of content if optimally played and you paid 80 dollars for it"
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Jun 28, 2017 01:21
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Robindaybird posted:Lusamine is interesting in that she prioritize pokemon only as an extension of herself, she has zero qualms freezing pokemon that no longer serve her purpose to keep them in their most beautiful state - and she has pokemon generally considered pretty, this also extends to how she treats her children, once they stopped acting according to how she wants them to, she rejects them. She really has the hallmarks of a narcissistic parent - honestly, Lillie and her brother have behaviors of emotionally abused children, and I wouldn't be surprised until her brother ran away that Lillie was the golden child and her brother the unfavorite so Lusamine can torment to feed her ego. Lusamine is evil on a level relatable to all ages. Kids can see her as a mean mom who's so obsessed with beauty that she turned evil. Adults can see her narcissistic traits and how they've impacted her kids, but the game never screams SHE IS A NARCISSIST WHO EMOTIONALLY ABUSED HER KIDS at you. It just gives you the characters and lets you read between the lines. If she was in Reborn the game wouldn't just be screaming those between-the-lines aspects at you, but it'd be written at a level too intense & edgy for kids to enjoy.
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Jun 28, 2017 01:25
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I think my summation of all this storytelling talk is that Pokemon is only "for babies" if you approach from a childishly superficial level. Pokemon is absolutely marketed at children, but like a good Disney or Pixar film it also manages the trick of "For All Ages" by including material in the setting, characters, and storytelling that's only apparent to older audiences. Stuff like Lusamine and her children or the stuff around Ghetsis or the Eevee sidequest from SuMo touch on some genuinely mature themes. To reiterate another point worn through from the Uranium thread Pokemon has been getting more mature and serious, it's just escaped all the fans out there who confuse edginess with maturity. Edit: Haifisch said it better first and cited their work.
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Jun 28, 2017 01:26
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Not to mention that there are plenty of Pokemon that aren't so cute and cuddly. Red and Blue came out when I was 11 and my first favorite was Gyarados. Lots of boys at that age love their Godzilla-like city destroying monsters and I was no exception. There's also Banette (animated out of vengeance towards the child that abandoned it) and Drifloon (carries kids that hang onto it to the Pokemon equivalent of Hell). The difference is that the writing for those games illustrates those Pokemon facts in a way that's not in-your-face about it. I forgot the name of the Pokemon in Uranium that died in its Pokeball and is chained to it, but its lack of subtlety caused TieTuesday to call it "Banksy" in his LP of it.Lance of Llanwyln posted:Hell, even Blue/Gary has something of a character arc, though his is over 3 games instead of just in one. In RBY, he's a child prodigy who becomes Champion in a blink of an eye, only to get wrecked by Red before his grandfather even comes to congratulate him. In GSC, he's the new Viridian Gym Leader, but seems pretty disinterested in it and just seems bummed out in general. Then, at some point, he and Red essentially become BFFs and travel the world. He finally seems to realize that winning isn't everything and also that he was being a massive jerk to everyone. In GSC, he strikes me as the Pokemon Trainer equivalent of a middle-aged man constantly pining for the days when he was a high school football star, but has slid into the average life.
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Jun 28, 2017 05:03
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Then again, Blue also never 'hated' you. He was clearly your rival and competing with you, but his cruel interactions with you were limited to "Telling his sister not to give you a useless map that she'll give you anyway." and "Saying Smell ya later"
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Jun 28, 2017 05:26
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Also the series already has edgy pokemon - the Dark class are all cheaters and bastards. They aren't dark as an element, that's their personality. They don't beat psychic types due to a block on their powers - they think one thing and do another. They don't beat fighting types at their own game, they refuse to play fair - they feint, they have beat-up (Mechanically, each pokemon gets a hit. In Universe? The Dark pokemon goes to the trainers belt, releases all his friends, cracks his knuckles and says "Let's get to work...") they also have poor sportmanship: Why do you think Bite is now a dark move - it's bad form!
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Jun 28, 2017 05:51
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Let's be real, basically everyone who played RBY projected Gary Oak on Blue. Sure, Blue didn't have a sports car or a mysterious gang of cheerleaders following him, but gently caress him anyway!
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Jun 28, 2017 05:52
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BioEnchanted posted:Also the series already has edgy pokemon - the Dark class are all cheaters and bastards. They aren't dark as an element, that's their personality. They don't beat psychic types due to a block on their powers - they think one thing and do another. They don't beat fighting types at their own game, they refuse to play fair - they feint, they have beat-up (Mechanically, each pokemon gets a hit. In Universe? The Dark pokemon goes to the trainers belt, releases all his friends, cracks his knuckles and says "Let's get to work...") they also have poor sportmanship: Why do you think Bite is now a dark move - it's bad form! One small correction, Fighting beats Dark, because justice always defeats evil (and martial arts is generally seen as heroic). That or the straightforward approach beats trickery. But yeah, Dark is called "Evil" in the Japanese version, and so it encompasses various forms of unsportsmanlike conduct, as well as expressions of evil intent (moves like Dark Pulse aren't so much actual darkness as they are bursts of concentrated killing intent, like Akuma from Street Fighter uses for his Gohadoken).
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Jun 28, 2017 06:07
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EclecticTastes posted:One small correction, Fighting beats Dark, because justice always defeats evil (and martial arts is generally seen as heroic). That or the straightforward approach beats trickery. But yeah, Dark is called "Evil" in the Japanese version, and so it encompasses various forms of unsportsmanlike conduct, as well as expressions of evil intent (moves like Dark Pulse aren't so much actual darkness as they are bursts of concentrated killing intent, like Akuma from Street Fighter uses for his Gohadoken). I knew I probably got one of those mixed up. It's been a while since I played the games myself.
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Jun 28, 2017 06:09
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Bug also beats Dark because of Kamen Rider.
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Jun 28, 2017 06:54
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Onmi posted:And that's why you get all the "LOL YOU'RE THE RIVAL" bullshit. XY and ORAS both run with this, though; while you team up with your rival periodically, you destroy Wally so hard he becomes a smogonite, and if you picked the female protagonist, Brendan straight up quits being a Trainer when you ruin him in the post-Champion battle after the credits. In XY, it primarily shows through your interactions with Caleb/Serena; you can just see them becoming increasingly frustrated and seething that they're doing their best and you can still just walk all over them without even trying - despite the fact that they're the more experienced Trainer, and they've been taught theory by their parents since they were little, you, the new kid, just turn up and demolish them over and over again. Not that that's a bad thing, but it's interesting when you compare it to Blue, Silver, and uh... that guy from BW whose name I forget (the male friend in your trio with Bianca), all of whom have relatively antagonistic interactions with the protagonist and are ultimately forced to reconsider their behavior (Blue has even chilled the gently caress out by the time you fight him as Champion, versus him just straight up being a jerk to you at the start of the game). While that's a positive thing in those games, the XY and ORAS rivals reconsider what they're doing in a way that makes it seem like you've had a negative impact on them, rather than a positive one. SuMo goes in the other direction again by you essentially not having a rival. Hau and Gladion could both fill those roles (Hau probably moreso, as he fulfills the traditional 'also has a starter from your set'), but they play with the formula a lot: Gladion has already had most of his character development, but due to his tough front you don't really realize it until you proceed with the game and start reading text in Aether and talking to people; Hau is interested in getting strong enough to dethrone his grandfather, but he's more interested in having fun - until things get really serious and he shows off how strong he actually is. The character who undergoes the most rival-like arc - changing their opinions, expanding their worldview, and growing as a person through their interactions with you - is Lillie, even though you never actually fight her. I'm interested to see what will happen in SuMo2 with stuff like this.
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Jun 28, 2017 06:55
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EclecticTastes posted:Fighting beats Dark, because justice always defeats evil (and martial arts is generally seen as heroic). This is also why bug typing beats dark. Bugs are also heroic.
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Jun 28, 2017 06:58
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Ace of Aces posted:XY and ORAS both run with this, though; while you team up with your rival periodically, you destroy Wally so hard he becomes a smogonite, and if you picked the female protagonist, Brendan straight up quits being a Trainer when you ruin him in the post-Champion battle after the credits. In XY, it primarily shows through your interactions with Caleb/Serena; you can just see them becoming increasingly frustrated and seething that they're doing their best and you can still just walk all over them without even trying - despite the fact that they're the more experienced Trainer, and they've been taught theory by their parents since they were little, you, the new kid, just turn up and demolish them over and over again. They don't run with it though, that's peoples interpretations, the other interpretations are your fighting with Wally inspired him to better himself as a trainer and pushed him to go out and see the world, not just living in a safe bubble. And with RSE/ORAS and Brendan/May it's just an example of them realizing that being a trainer isn't really their focus, at least not in the battle way. you didn't shatter their dreams by beating them. They were never competing with you. Also Cheren is one of your childhood friends, he's absolutely NOT antagonistic towards the protagonist. I actually have never played XY so I cannot make a comment on Caleb/Serena and again, I would qualify that Blue isn't very antagonistic, he's certainly competitive, but it's very obvious he's your friend as well as your rival. It's far too much people's perceptions of the anime mixing with the limited text of the games that make people think that. Silver is the only antagonistic rival in the series and even he lightens up.
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Jun 28, 2017 07:27
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I'm pretty sure that the RB manual says that Red and Blue were best friends but then had a falling out and Blue became a bully. That said, Blue's never worse than arrogant and while I'd classify him as more antagonistic than pretty much every rival other than Silver, he's not a bad guy. I would be interested in a modern Pokemon game having an antagonist rival again, but I don't think that the friendly rivals that dominate the series are bad in and out of themselves. It's just that when the friendly rivals are bland like the XY ones or Brendan/May all you really feel when you see them is "ugh forced encounter". Barry avoids this by having a personality, Hugh avoids it by having an agenda (even if it's a stupid one) and "I'm going to unleash my rage", and Cheren, Bianca, Hau, and Gladion avoid it by having actual character arcs.
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Jun 28, 2017 08:18
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Onmi posted:Then again, Blue also never 'hated' you. He was clearly your rival and competing with you, but his cruel interactions with you were limited to "Telling his sister not to give you a useless map that she'll give you anyway." and "Saying Smell ya later" ungulateman posted:Bug also beats Dark because of Kamen Rider.
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Jun 28, 2017 08:57
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get that OUT of my face posted:Yeah, Blue's just a jerk, but he's not a bad person. He mellowed with age. I personally subscribe to the idea that Bug beats Dark because it's impossible to trick something that acts entirely on instinct like an insect.
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Jun 28, 2017 10:00
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Waffleman_ posted:Don't forget "This game has only a half hour of content if optimally played and you paid 80 dollars for it" 80 1980/90 dollars, at that.
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Jun 28, 2017 10:05
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Onmi posted:They don't run with it though, that's peoples interpretations, the other interpretations are your fighting with Wally inspired him to better himself as a trainer and pushed him to go out and see the world, not just living in a safe bubble. And with RSE/ORAS and Brendan/May it's just an example of them realizing that being a trainer isn't really their focus, at least not in the battle way. you didn't shatter their dreams by beating them. They were never competing with you. I did play XY and Caleb/Serena do seem to be pretty bummed about how easily you own them, but I don't recall them giving up particularly. The rest of your friends seem to be hyped about how great you are rather than sad that you're better than them; pokedex kid always is impressed rather than upset that you beat him and everyone except Caleb/Serena accepts losing to you in a pokemon battle as a foregone conclusion.
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Jun 28, 2017 12:58
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get that OUT of my face posted:Is that actually the rationale behind Bug > Dark? I know that there's a reason for every type strength and weakness, and some are less obvious than others. That's awesome if that's the case. I don't think there's ever been official 100% confirmation, but "Kamen Riders defeat evil" is a pretty safe bet. At this point Kamen Riders 1 and 2 are ingrained in the cultural consciousness so it wouldn't be hard to put "Bugman fights evil" alongside other more metaphorical type match-ups like "Mind over matter" or "Cold iron harms the fae".
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Jun 28, 2017 16:09
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