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I hope they donate it to a police department.
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Jun 27, 2017 09:01
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So I got sent to Norfolk this week at the last minute for a conference. I was never actually told when and where exactly to show up. The best I got was instructions to wander around a certain building and ask people if I was in the right spot. The best part is, it didn't even seem odd for how these kind of things often work. 
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Jun 27, 2017 12:27
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Another Fitz report, with a little grain of salt though. As has been discussed, it's a lot of rumors and hearsay until we get a complete investigation: http://taskandpurpose.com/report-uss-fitzgerald-warnings-deadly-impact/ quote:In the first detailed account from one of those directly involved, the cargo ship’s captain said the ACX Crystal had signaled with flashing lights after the Fitzgerald “suddenly” steamed onto a course to cross its path. I have to wonder why the ship would signal with light vice the 5+ short blast international danger signal. I also wonder how a lookout didn't see a flashing light.
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Jun 27, 2017 15:27
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I get that these things don't move all that fast, but turning away for 10 minutes doesn't make sense to me. I don't see how they could've been on a collision course at the beginning and end of that.
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Jun 27, 2017 15:29
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That usually means someone is lying, either the container ship crew or the Navy. The investigation will get to the bottom of it. Though I guess if the container ship tried to turn to pass in front of the destroyer instead of turning towards it's stern, that would make a collision all but inevitable. orange juche fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 16:41
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Elendil004 posted:I also wonder how a lookout didn't see a flashing light. When I was on deployment the LHD had OS' guys on radar tracking planes and ships (although these are the guys trying to attempt comms with a drone and baffled why it didn't reply) and FCs who would scan the area with their night vision cameras on their guns (amazing to see how much garbage was in the water they could see like floating fridges wtf) and there were the guys who had the binos (who I am convinced are the fuckers throwing chemlights into the water to make everyone get up at night for man overboard musters to share their misery). Thats like 3 layers of eyeballs that I know of looking at whats going on around us. I don't know how a destroyer works though. Do they only have the lookouts?
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Jun 27, 2017 17:27
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Blackchamber posted:When I was on deployment the LHD had OS' guys on radar tracking planes and ships (although these are the guys trying to attempt comms with a drone and baffled why it didn't reply) and FCs who would scan the area with their night vision cameras on their guns (amazing to see how much garbage was in the water they could see like floating fridges wtf) and there were the guys who had the binos (who I am convinced are the fuckers throwing chemlights into the water to make everyone get up at night for man overboard musters to share their misery). Thats like 3 layers of eyeballs that I know of looking at whats going on around us. Destroyers doing non-training/deployment steaming are probably going to have a skeleton watch crew. Bridge wing lookouts are often not manned 24/7 if at all outside of low vis/special evolutions. Here is likely who all was on watch in the bridge: Officer of the Deck Conning Officer Boatswain Mate of the Watch (BMOW) Quartermaster of the Watch (QMOW) Helmsman Since it was the middle of the night, the BMOW may have very well been inside the skin of the ship routing the CO's night orders to various departments (engineering, combat, etc that were also likely thinly manned) or he could have been rotating the aft lookout and the helmsmen. The QMOW very well could have been in the chart room prepping for a incoming port movement, in the signal shack loving with flags, or asleep in either place. Additionally, both of these people could have been inside the skin of the ship waking up watch replacements. Basically the OOD and the conn are the only ones that are sure to be there 100% of the time and someone should always be at the helm. It's possible to fall asleep standing behind the helm. I've done it and I know others have as well. There's a lot of ways to get complacent at 1 in the morning especially when everyone is about to get off of watch. I could very easily imagine a less than awake helmsman and an OOD & conn bullshitting on the port bridge wing completely missing something on the starboard side of the ship.
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Jun 27, 2017 18:32
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Wouldn't 1am be a fresh crew, relieved around 0030/0045?
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Jun 27, 2017 18:50
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Mr. Nice! posted:I could very easily imagine a less than awake helmsman and an OOD & conn bullshitting on the port bridge wing completely missing something on the starboard side of the ship. What about combat? I've stood plenty of mid CSC watches so I know how alert the average watch team is at that point, especially in friendly waters, but you'd think someone would have seen the contact.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:00
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Elendil004 posted:Wouldn't 1am be a fresh crew, relieved around 0030/0045? Depends on the exact watch rotation, but iirc our watches always relieved at 2 or 3 minus 15-30 minutes depending on which specific watch was getting replaced. The OOD itself would always be the last to assume and on the hour.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:01
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PneumonicBook posted:What about combat? I've stood plenty of mid CSC watches so I know how alert the average watch team is at that point, especially in friendly waters, but you'd think someone would have seen the contact. Combat may have had a CICWO (Combat Information Center Watch Officer) but that junior officer is just supposed to mainly watch chat and deal with comms if they had a CIC watch stood up at all. If you're steaming around home port not doing anything in particular it might not be stood up at all.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:02
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Interesting. I would have assumed 4 hour watches 0000-0400 relieved at quarter/half till or 6 hour watches 0000-0600. I also find it kinda crazy not to have a helm, a lookout, and a deck and/or conn on the bridge at all times. My experience (USCG) is certainly tangential to Navy but I always assumed the navy was an order of magnitude more watch-redundant than us.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:29
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Would either ship have a 'black box' recording sensor information, speed, course and/or what was being said on the bridge?
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Jun 27, 2017 20:19
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Mr. Nice! posted:Combat may have had a CICWO (Combat Information Center Watch Officer) but that junior officer is just supposed to mainly watch chat and deal with comms if they had a CIC watch stood up at all. I have never once been on an aegis ship without combat stood up in some capacity, regardless of location. When I say stood up I don't mean an ensign running around as cicwo.
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Jun 27, 2017 20:25
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Clarence posted:Would either ship have a 'black box' recording sensor information, speed, course and/or what was being said on the bridge? Edit: yes.
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Jun 27, 2017 20:25
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Elendil004 posted:Interesting. I would have assumed 4 hour watches 0000-0400 relieved at quarter/half till or 6 hour watches 0000-0600. I also find it kinda crazy not to have a helm, a lookout, and a deck and/or conn on the bridge at all times. My experience (USCG) is certainly tangential to Navy but I always assumed the navy was an order of magnitude more watch-redundant than us. Triple post due to phone posting. The watch rotation will depend heavily on how many qualified people you have per watch station. Without asking someone on the fitz there's literally no way to know.
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Jun 27, 2017 20:28
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PneumonicBook posted:I have never once been on an aegis ship without combat stood up in some capacity, regardless of location. When I say stood up I don't mean an ensign running around as cicwo. I've been underway with little to no manning in combat plenty of times.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:22
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Mr. Nice! posted:I've been underway with little to no manning in combat plenty of times. Well I guess our anecdotes have landed us at an impasse. The lowest manning we ever had was steaming back from Hawaii after pac, and we still had csc/surface/tic/ids/and a token Senior guy, either Tao or air. PneumonicBook fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 21:28
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PneumonicBook posted:Well I guess our anecdotes have landed us at an impasse. The lowest manning we ever had was steaming back from Hawaii after package, and we still had csc/surface/tic/ids/and a token Senior guy, either Tao or air. Most of the time with only a CICWO was returning from deployment or just overnight steaming that isn't a part of training or an exercise. TAOs would only be on watch if we were actually doing something. Just  if your CO had department heads standing watch 100% of the time you were underway. You had some cranky DHs as a result I'm sure.The bottom line is, though, that only one person here knows the manning setup and he necessarily can't share. You're right they probably had more than just a CICWO in CIC, but I doubt they were fully manned.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:34
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Also all of this varies from fleet to fleet and ship to ship. Every fleet has their own standards and every skipper has his own as well. It's all in an instruction somewhere.
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Jun 27, 2017 21:36
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Mr. Nice! posted:TAOs would only be on watch if we were actually doing something. Just Yea we all thought it was ridiculous at the time. How far out were they? Like 50 nm? I don't know, you'd think in that situation you'd be manned. The lovely part about this is we won't know for sure for like a year. The one guy I know who is actually on the fitz wasnt onboard for that underway, thankfully.
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Jun 28, 2017 00:05
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So random question: Whenever this sort of thing happens the captain is always immediately relieved, correct? I mean I get it, they need to investigate and such. Does the XO take over? If it's found that whatever the incident was, not just ramming another ship, was not the fault of anyone on the Naval ship, does the Captain get his job back?
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Jun 28, 2017 00:15
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Best case for the captain is that he retires at his current rank. Worst case is prison.
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Jun 28, 2017 00:47
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Nostalgia4Dogges posted:So random question: The CO was already relieved by the XO during the incident since he was incapacitated. Also, it's hypothetically possible to get in a collision and not get fired but it's incredibly rare. For example, the CO of the USS SAN JACINTO was not relieved after they ran into the USS MONTPELIER. I mean in that case the sub surfaced right in front of the cruiser so there really wasn't anything that SanJac could do, but there is more thought put into then a simple "crashed->fired".
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Jun 28, 2017 01:56
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Also I feel like since it was 1:00 in the morning and he was asleep there's really no justifying him being relieved if he wasn't injured. But y'know, Navy.
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Jun 28, 2017 04:31
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Anita Dickinme posted:Also I feel like since it was 1:00 in the morning and he was asleep there's really no justifying him being relieved if he wasn't injured. But y'know, Navy. It's more complicated then that. All of the watchstanders draw their authority from him. Basically he's vouching for their professional competency. It's the captain's responsibly to ensure that they are carrying out their duties properly. Thus, if it turns out that the collision is a result of improperly trained or performing watchstanders then ultimately it is the captain's fault. I got to live this dream a few months ago. I was in the verge of being fired for a few of my sailors going off and doing something completely stupid. I was no where near the incident, and if I was I know it wouldn't have happened, but I was still held accountable because I was not intrusive enough with them to really know they knew what they were doing. It's part of the job. The whole thing falls apart if it isn't.
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Jun 28, 2017 04:50
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I was in the Army and both Afghanistan deployments saw some kind of really bad fuckup. Every time, the commanders throw the enlisted under the bus and give themselves letters of reprimand at the very absolute worst except for one O-3 who let his entire company torture POWs and that commander was let go with an other than honorable discharge. I think officers in the army would be less psychotically stupid if they had to be accountable in the same way naval officers are.
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Jun 28, 2017 04:58
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ManMythLegend posted:It's more complicated then that. All of the watchstanders draw their authority from him. Basically he's vouching for their professional competency. It's the captain's responsibly to ensure that they are carrying out their duties properly. Thus, if it turns out that the collision is a result of improperly trained or performing watchstanders then ultimately it is the captain's fault. Frankly, it's something I really like about the Navy and has served me pretty well outside of it (the ownership aspect).
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Jun 28, 2017 04:59
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ManMythLegend posted:It's more complicated then that. All of the watchstanders draw their authority from him. Basically he's vouching for their professional competency. It's the captain's responsibly to ensure that they are carrying out their duties properly. Thus, if it turns out that the collision is a result of improperly trained or performing watchstanders then ultimately it is the captain's fault. For the record I would snitch on my fellow sailors for a few packs of Magic cards.
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Jun 28, 2017 05:20
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Zeris posted:I was in the Army and both Afghanistan deployments saw some kind of really bad fuckup. Every time, the commanders throw the enlisted under the bus and give themselves letters of reprimand at the very absolute worst except for one O-3 who let his entire company torture POWs and that commander was let go with an other than honorable discharge. I think officers in the army would be less psychotically stupid if they had to be accountable in the same way naval officers are. What's the career impact of an LOR? In the Air Force you are done. The only way to get out faster is via court martial.
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Jun 28, 2017 06:53
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LORs stay with you, but depending on when you get it, it can vary as to how it will impact your career. Generally, don't expect to get much further though. As for the recent report from the Master of the Crystal: I do agree that the comment of "We flashed our lights" seems really strange just from a Rules of the Road perspective. I've done 5 short before and man does it get everyone's attention. Everyone in the area just slows down and looks to see what they have going on around them. It's way safer than flashing your light. I have no other comments though on it. As I said before, the investigations have started, so I can't talk about our watch rotations or what manning we had at the time. But being on a Destroyer for my first ship as well, it really varied as to what watches we had stood up. My deployment CO always had Department heads stand TAO and we were always on 5 hour watch rotations. On deployment we did circadian, but it was implemented terribly and we rotated every week. Because CLEARLY that is how the human body works. With my last CO on USS Last Boat unless we were doing major exercises, it was 1st Tour CICWOs standing the watch with CSCs, Surfaces, and a few others (usually OSs). But rarely Air or anything like that. We maybe had one more bridge officer, a JOOW, but I can't even say that we always had that.
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Jun 28, 2017 11:33
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^Thanks for posting what you can. The Valley Stared posted:LORs stay with you, but depending on when you get it, it can vary as to how it will impact your career. Generally, don't expect to get much further though. Interesting. The only person I ever knew who didn't make O-3 on time (until they actually held boards for it) was passed over based on an LOC, which is much less severe. Godholio fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 14:28
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The Valley Stared posted:LORs stay with you, but depending on when you get it, it can vary as to how it will impact your career. Generally, don't expect to get much further though. Circadian is great but changing it every week pretty much defeats the purpose of it.
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Jun 28, 2017 14:30
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Godholio posted:What's the career impact of an LOR? In the Air Force you are done. The only way to get out faster is via court martial. It depends in the Army. If you're about to be up for promotion and it isn't filed locally, but is in your record, you're not getting promoted and will probably be separated from service on your above-zone look for promotion (with full severance pay, mind you, if you've got 6 or more years in). If they hold an officer separation board, because they need numbers down, you're easy pickings for early separation (again, with severance if you have over 6 years in). But let's say you just made O-4 and aren't up for O-5 for years and years? You won't make O-5 ever and will be a pariah, but barring an officer separation board, which is a Department of the Army thing, rather than a local command thing, you can hang out as the dumbass who got in trouble for years on end, unless the letter of reprimand occurs in conjunction with some other form of separation chapter. So I know of an O-4 who is just tucked away in some basement with a dead-end job due to a DUI, because he refuses to get out until he has a solid job offer, but the command didn't quite want to chapter him for bad conduct. On the other hand, I knew an O-3 who was separated early without severance for sleeping with one of his enlisted soldiers administratively as a sort of plea deal to let him avoid UCMJ charges. I've known a lot of dumbass LTs who ended up with local letters that didn't hurt them too much in the long run, but were held to be put into evidence if they hosed up again and the command wanted to separate them from service and wanted extra paperwork to show they were a serial screwup.
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Jun 28, 2017 15:53
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ManMythLegend posted:It's more complicated then that. All of the watchstanders draw their authority from him. Basically he's vouching for their professional competency. It's the captain's responsibly to ensure that they are carrying out their duties properly. Thus, if it turns out that the collision is a result of improperly trained or performing watchstanders then ultimately it is the captain's fault. Did you learn a valuable lesson about personally with your own two hands ensuring Schmuckatelli's wing wang does not go inside a schoolgirl?
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Jun 28, 2017 15:59
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mlmp08 posted:It depends in the Army. If you're about to be up for promotion and it isn't filed locally, but is in your record, you're not getting promoted and will probably be separated from service on your above-zone look for promotion (with full severance pay, mind you, if you've got 6 or more years in). If they hold an officer separation board, because they need numbers down, you're easy pickings for early separation (again, with severance if you have over 6 years in). But let's say you just made O-4 and aren't up for O-5 for years and years? You won't make O-5 ever and will be a pariah, but barring an officer separation board, which is a Department of the Army thing, rather than a local command thing, you can hang out as the dumbass who got in trouble for years on end, unless the letter of reprimand occurs in conjunction with some other form of separation chapter. So I know of an O-4 who is just tucked away in some basement with a dead-end job due to a DUI, because he refuses to get out until he has a solid job offer, but the command didn't quite want to chapter him for bad conduct. On the other hand, I knew an O-3 who was separated early without severance for sleeping with one of his enlisted soldiers administratively as a sort of plea deal to let him avoid UCMJ charges. We do the "shove it in a drawer as a threat thing" with LOCs, but if you did something worthy of an LOR you're hosed. Anything you've got that's already in the drawer is going right to your records along with it. Interesting to hear about these little differences.
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Jun 28, 2017 17:35
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It also depends on the current war's optempo. My old company commander (O3), doped up on ambien, lost accountability of his sidearm on the civilian aircraft taking us home to Ft. Campbell from Afghanistan. He got his second command, running the air assault school, downgraded to a regular staff job as a result. I saw LTs with DUIs get their O-3 and command. They pinned me O-3 when I was 24 years old, with three years time in service. They were shoving everyone up the pyramid because we were testing the "two wars at once" doctrine and not doing well at it, and because everyone eligible to separate was doing so because the experiment wasn't going so well.
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Jun 28, 2017 18:17
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maffew buildings posted:Did you learn a valuable lesson about personally with your own two hands ensuring Schmuckatelli's wing wang does not go inside a schoolgirl? There are more sophisticated things than saltpeter you can put in the water tank these days that will take care of that. And it's less illegal than using government funds to buy Magic cards for snitches.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:05
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last few posts posted:officer stuff Yeah okay, I'll just stay in my cozy E3 corner.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:40
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Anita Dickinme posted:Yeah okay, I'll just stay in my cozy E3 corner. Why the gently caress aren't you cleaning?
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Jun 28, 2017 22:27
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