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FactsAreUseless posted:I've always thought they had cool flavor but they just don't work ever. Just make them work mechanically like a normal tank, except their animations involve lots of dodging
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Jun 28, 2017 19:13
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evasion tanking conceptually just doesn't work though. they're either too good or too bad due to the way the concept has to work. the closest to a tank based on evasion i feel like could work is something like wow's brewmaster, where you stagger a certain amount of damage.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:13
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Magitek Knight tank that eventually goes insane after a certain amount of playtime.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:13
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Reiterpallasch posted:oh, i misinterpreted you then, my bad. you've got the opposite problem going on then where the move is kind of garbage as an holmgang-equivalent, since plenty of tankbusters will straight up apply 5x your hp in damage across multiple hits, though. Yeah there'd be tuning to be done, some sort of short damage taken down buff once it goes off or something, but this is all academic anyway as it's never going to happen. I was just a gigantic BLU nerd in XI and I want it back so, so badly. I finally have my precious RDM back, though, so thats something. FactsAreUseless posted:Magitek Knight tank that eventually goes insane after a certain amount of playtime. That's all tanks though?
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Jun 28, 2017 19:14
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Saint Freak posted:Perhaps you'd like to hear my Gambler Tank idea where they block random amounts of damage. Keep going, I'm almost there.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:14
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Fister Roboto posted:I'm surprised nobody has brought up evasion tanks yet, that's my favorite stupid suggestion. I mean, that's basically what Dancer is, isn't it? The idea can work so long as it's more about themeing around the idea of evasion rather the literally having a tank that relies on RNG defence.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:14
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Oxyclean posted:I mean, that's basically what Dancer is, isn't it? This is how shadow and assassin tanks work in TOR. They just have a stance they can flip on that amounts to "This is totally you being dodgy and evasive, but in practice we're just bumping you up to heavy armor levels and whatnot, tank as any other tank would."
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Jun 28, 2017 19:16
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A DPS called Heal Mage.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:16
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okay well people are usually talking about 'tanks that actually use evasion', not 'tanks that are normal tanks but have the word 'quick' in a lot of their abilities'.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:17
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Fister Roboto posted:Keep going, I'm almost there. LB3 puts everyone at 7777 health
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Jun 28, 2017 19:17
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a tank built entirely around parry-- wait
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Jun 28, 2017 19:19
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Skaw posted:Paladin flows incredibly well now, but it's still really basic. FoF Goring Blade, Circle of Scorn, then Royal Authority until Goring Blade is approaching 6~seconds, reapply Goring Blade and hit Requiescat on your last second of FoF, move in to Holy Spirit spam. This is a couple of pages back, but I wanted to respond because of how I do things different and what I've gathered talking to people. Basically you wanna requiescat first instead of FoF first since it's your biggest burst damage. If I'm MT I'll open with one rage combo, req, holy spirit spam, then FoF and straight into DPS combos to rebuild mana for the next req. Aggro is not an issue so there's no need to FoF on open, plus this takes advantage of all the pull time buffs with your max dps burst. If I'm OT, I start immediately with req, holy spirit spam, then FoF and dps combos.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:19
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FactsAreUseless posted:A DPS called Heal Mage. So a DPS that deals damage through integer overflow wraparound?
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Jun 28, 2017 19:20
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Ainsley McTree posted:LB3 puts everyone at 7777 health Nah, LB3 is slots. 777 = Massive damage to boss and full heal/mp. No match = Bad Breath on the party. 77Bar = Raid wipe.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:21
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:evasion tanking conceptually just doesn't work though. they're either too good or too bad due to the way the concept has to work. Stagger is probably my favorite mechanic for any tank in any game ever. For those not aware, brewmaster tanks' tanking stance gives them X% of stagger damage, where every hit you take has that percentage prevented, and then a dot is placed on the tank for that damage, and it stacks up and up and deals the damage over like 8 seconds or so. The brewmaster has ways to clear the stagger, but on a percentage basis as well, so you let it build up and wipe out half of it, and you can also increase the amount of damage you stagger, so from like 20% to 50% for a period of time (I'm making those numbers up, but iirc they're in the ballpark for what it is). It's a really engaging way of handling evasion flavor tanking and is also amazing when paired with a hot healer like a druid.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:23
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I had a vague idea of Dancer as the Thavnair-themed healer who used thrown needles for attacking/healing via targeting pressure points, and dances as aoe stuff. But I'm not a lifelong FF-fan or anything so I've no idea how that fits and poo poo.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:24
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Post up there reminded me of something. End of MSQ: I know we've said how Zenos is basically Kefka with less clown genes, but it only just occurred to me that the experiments that made him a Resonant possibly drove him mad in the same way Kefka was driven mad my their magitek experiments. Neat parallel. On the same note I wonder if we're gonna have to deal with the Resonant in the future or if that plotline has been nipped in the bud.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:24
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ironically, brewmasters were also cheesing raid mechanics due to getting insane stagger percentages and then purging them.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:24
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A yeti class that attacks by throwing other players.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:26
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:ironically, brewmasters were also cheesing raid mechanics due to getting insane stagger percentages and then purging them. yeah but cheesing raid mechanics is how high level raiding in wow just goes, like the chinese guild that stacked warlocks to get the yogg zero lights world first kill.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:26
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:okay well people are usually talking about 'tanks that actually use evasion', not 'tanks that are normal tanks but have the word 'quick' in a lot of their abilities'. Those people are dumb and don't know what they're taking about, just like the people who suggest support/utility classes "could totally work if Blizzard tried harder" in WoW. Or almost anyone who suggests a super cool idea for their favourite video game that's completely impractical / imbalanced at face value.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:26
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Theyve added every class archetype so far (tank, healer, melee/range/caster dps) so it will be interesting to see what they do next.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:27
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Mr. Nice! posted:This is a couple of pages back, but I wanted to respond because of how I do things different and what I've gathered talking to people. Basically you wanna requiescat first instead of FoF first since it's your biggest burst damage. If I'm MT I'll open with one rage combo, req, holy spirit spam, then FoF and straight into DPS combos to rebuild mana for the next req. Aggro is not an issue so there's no need to FoF on open, plus this takes advantage of all the pull time buffs with your max dps burst. If I'm OT, I start immediately with req, holy spirit spam, then FoF and dps combos. What should you be doing for 3-mob pulls? Does circle of scorn > alternate holy spirit spam do enough aggro to hold the pack, or do you need to blow a little MP on flash too?
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Jun 28, 2017 19:27
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Ciaphas posted:On the same note I wonder if we're gonna have to deal with the Resonant in the future or if that plotline has been nipped in the bud. Well we still have the world's angriest Highlander woman who is also a Resonant in custody which I'm SURE will last.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:28
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Oxyclean posted:I mean, that's basically what Dancer is, isn't it? No? Dancer's thing in tactics is whole battlefield support abilities. Their thing in FF5 is being an idiot that stands around doing nothing, except sometimes they do a ton of damage.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:29
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A Mime DPS class where you just get all the skills of one other random DPS in your party
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Jun 28, 2017 19:30
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SettingSun posted:Well we still have the world's angriest Highlander woman who is also a Resonant in custody which I'm SURE will last. wasn't it implied at some point that resonant isn't permanent?
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Jun 28, 2017 19:30
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Skaw posted:Paladin flows incredibly well now, but it's still really basic. FoF Goring Blade, Circle of Scorn, then Royal Authority until Goring Blade is approaching 6~seconds, reapply Goring Blade and hit Requiescat on your last second of FoF, move in to Holy Spirit spam. DRK doesn't seem all that much more complicated, though, at least on the surface. Biggest reason I can't make up my mind is probably aesthetics, if I'm totally honest.  I'll probably do DRK first just because Sidurgu is best dad and I want to see what dumbassery he has to put up with this time 
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Jun 28, 2017 19:31
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:wasn't it implied at some point that resonant isn't permanent? If that implication was ever made I sure don't remember it.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:31
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Ainsley McTree posted:What should you be doing for 3-mob pulls? Does circle of scorn > alternate holy spirit spam do enough aggro to hold the pack, or do you need to blow a little MP on flash too? When I'm pulling packs I'm usually grabbing 2-3 at a time and AOEing them down. I'll run through packs flashing (circle of scorn on the first if I'm grabbing more than 2 packs), flash them all again when I get them all in a nice pile, FoF, circle of scorn, and then total eclipse everything down. I'll usually flash things to keep the blind debuff up, but no more than that. Once we're down to 3 mobs or less, if I'm not going to need my MP for the next pull (or a boss fight right after) I'll req/holy spirit otherwise I just use dps combos to finish them. I'll throw out shield bashes periodically to interrupt things and build LB up. If I'm just going into a pack of three mobs on, holy spirit spamming around is usually enough to hold hate after the initial flash.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:32
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Stagger is probably my favorite mechanic for any tank in any game ever. For those not aware, brewmaster tanks' tanking stance gives them X% of stagger damage, where every hit you take has that percentage prevented, and then a dot is placed on the tank for that damage, and it stacks up and up and deals the damage over like 8 seconds or so. The brewmaster has ways to clear the stagger, but on a percentage basis as well, so you let it build up and wipe out half of it, and you can also increase the amount of damage you stagger, so from like 20% to 50% for a period of time (I'm making those numbers up, but iirc they're in the ballpark for what it is). It's a really engaging way of handling evasion flavor tanking and is also amazing when paired with a hot healer like a druid. So it's like earthbound/mother 3 where it takes awhile for your hp numbers to go down such that if you take an attack that does more damage than you have health you won't die if someone heals enough damage before your health ticks down to zero? How forgiving. I guess it would be balanced out by having such a class take more damage than other tanks so that in the end it doesn't really matter.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:32
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:wasn't it implied at some point that resonant isn't permanent? It wasn't implied but I wouldn't be surprised if she had it burned out of her after the WoL zapped her with that staff over and over.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:40
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macfam posted:How forgiving. I guess it would be balanced out by having such a class take more damage than other tanks so that in the end it doesn't really matter. Basically - Monks only get leather armour and don't get shields either, so they're going to be kinda squishy if you aren't managing your stagger. Demon Hunters are similar, they're squishier then other tanks but have a lot of ways to regain HP - although last I heard they were less competitive in high end raiding because they have very spiky health.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:42
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macfam posted:So it's like earthbound/mother 3 where it takes awhile for your hp numbers to go down such that if you take an attack that does more damage than you have health you won't die if someone heals enough damage before your health ticks down to zero? How forgiving. I guess it would be balanced out by having such a class take more damage than other tanks so that in the end it doesn't really matter. Actually that gives me an idea for a true caster tank: Time Mage. Instead of the support focus of FF5, it focuses on a damage smearing time shield. It would work a little like stagger, where any damage they take would be converted into a DoT which they can manage in some form of another. Their attack skills can include Comet and that acceleration bomb that Ozma had. Their class gauge could be "Inertia" which increases as their time shield smears damage.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:43
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I mean I didn't know how they'd make a red mage that felt right before Stormblood but I think they pulled that one off pretty well. Red mage's dualcast mechanic is perfect at making them feel very red magey when combined with their melee burst combo and side utility in Vercure/Verraise. I feel confident they could do a Blue Mage tank concept well, how it works mechanically doesn't have to be too off the wall if they pull off it's execution nicely. If it's like the XI Blue Mage with its turban and scimitar it'd fit in nicely with a Near East-themed expansion maybe.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:47
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SettingSun posted:Actually that gives me an idea for a true caster tank: Time Mage. Instead of the support focus of FF5, it focuses on a damage smearing time shield. It would work a little like stagger, where any damage they take would be converted into a DoT which they can manage in some form of another. Their attack skills can include Comet and that acceleration bomb that Ozma had. Their class gauge could be "Inertia" which increases as their time shield smears damage. Implement chronomancer tank, then include characters from Chrono Trigger as NPCs in their class quest, thanks.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:49
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UHD posted:It wasn't implied but I wouldn't be surprised if she had it burned out of her after the WoL zapped her with that staff over and over. I don't think we were stealing her hyper-aether so much as the equivalent of shining a really bright light on her new aether-sensitive vision to disorient her. She's watching for tiny aetheric fluctuations to predict moves and we wave that thing around and cause tidal waves of aether to roll around and it disorients her like someone turning the overhead light on first thing in the morning.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:49
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There is already a class that uses time/space magic.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:50
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fast thread moves fastOxyclean posted:...and is Samurai really all that iconic of a Final Fantasy Job? I mean, I don't doubt the idea is popular, I just don't remember it being a job option in the FF games I've played. I would argue that blue mage is far and away much more iconic than SAM. ImpAtom posted:I can see it. Job quests = go get hit by a thing in this specially-constructed instance. Okay good, now you've learned a monster skill. BLU would have to have more job quests than any other job to make this work, however. And decoupling job abilities from job quests this expansion doesn't help that any. Saint Freak posted:Berserker Tank and Chocobo Knight Healer I always figured that had the class/job system worked out, that Viking/Berserker should have been the Marauder DPS fork, and used dots to trigger a thing that hits for ludicrous amounts of damage, a la Arms Warrior from WoW.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:51
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You could preserve that blue mage feel by letting you get attack "skins" from more exotic sources. Like you can't literally use boss move x, but if you go and get hit by in in EX you can make skill y look like it
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Jun 28, 2017 19:51
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