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Libluini posted:No, I said that massive amounts of nationalization inevitably leads to that. Some nationally owned, or partially owned companies are OK to have. Having only some companies owned by the state doesn't magically change its economy into a planned one! Sorry, I clearly misunderstood what you meant then.
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Jun 28, 2017 16:59
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Now that the French, the Germans and the Brits have their own thread, Europol's finally ready for its true purpose: Belgian politics they're poo poo!
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Jun 28, 2017 17:13
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Still gonna need a thread where all the nations of D&D can come together and accuse each other of being the scum of the earth or the bloody assassin of the working class. Europol will be fine
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Jun 28, 2017 17:22
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R. Mute posted:Now that the French, the Germans and the Brits have their own thread, Europol's finally ready for its true purpose: Belgian politics 
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Jun 28, 2017 17:24
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Still gonna need a thread where all the nations of D&D can come together and accuse each other of being the scum of the earth or the bloody assassin of the working class. Europol will be fine I think it will be more of a thread where everybody claims their nation is the shittiest and scummiest, based on the usual mindset of three average D&D poster.
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Jun 28, 2017 17:31
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Libluini posted:Nope, just the sign of a healthy social market economy. And neither is Flower for Algeria's version socialism. His version is planned economy, which inevitably leads to mismanagement, corruption and total collapse. Of course, the only difference to privately owned companies in a free economy is a matter of scale. In a crisis, individual companies may escape the worst parts and continue working. If a state owning many, many companies enters a crisis, welp. That's it then. Are we talking about the same Soviet Union that went from a burnt-down peasant country to the world's second industrial power in thirty years while also suffering through the worst of the most destructive war in modern history during that time?
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Jun 28, 2017 18:57
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Cerebral Bore posted:Are we talking about the same Soviet Union that went from a burnt-down peasant country to the world's second industrial power in thirty years while also suffering through the worst of the most destructive war in modern history during that time? Are you saying Stalin did nothing wrong?
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Jun 28, 2017 19:21
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GaussianCopula posted:Are you saying Stalin did nothing wrong? 
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Jun 28, 2017 20:13
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Hambilderberglar posted:Kulaks deserved it though? I mean if you follow the Stalinist logic, where the people who were active in the sector of the economy that lost importance get exploited and literally worked to death, so that the new sector can thrive, that can only mean that today's capitalist systems are wrong because they are to forgiving to them. I'm not sure a lot of people would agree with that approach.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:23
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BabyFur Denny posted:I think it will be more of a thread where everybody claims their nation is the shittiest and scummiest, based on the usual mindset of three average D&D poster. No, you have it wrong, everybody's nation is the shittiest and scummiest, except for those fuckers across the border who think they're better than us. Peak DnD.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:29
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GaussianCopula posted:I mean if you follow the Stalinist logic, where the people who were active in the sector of the economy that lost importance get exploited and literally worked to death, so that the new sector can thrive, that can only mean that today's capitalist systems are wrong because they are to forgiving to them. This is a pretty good description of capitalism, but I'm not sure what is has to do with Stalin or much of anything for that matter.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:31
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R. Mute posted:Now that the French, the Germans and the Brits have their own thread, Europol's finally ready for its true purpose: Belgian politics People say that nothing ever gets better in the world but lo and behold. In 2017 both Somalia and Belgium almost have a functioning government again. Miracles do happen!
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Jun 28, 2017 20:37
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Cerebral Bore posted:Are we talking about the same Soviet Union that went from a burnt-down peasant country to the world's second industrial power in thirty years while also suffering through the worst of the most destructive war in modern history during that time? I always find this dodgy logic since Russia before the revolution was growing at a ridiculous pace and with or without Capitalism or Communism it has a gigantic population, vast natural resources and a huge amount of land to work with.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:37
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MiddleOne posted:People say that nothing ever gets better in the world but lo and behold. In 2017 both Somalia and Belgium almost have a functioning government again. Miracles do happen! Belgium worked reasonably well with no government.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:44
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unpacked robinhood posted:Belgium worked reasonably well with no government. It's a failed-state joke. It's still immensely funny to me that Belgium pretty much made it out well of the Eurozone crisis almost exclusively by not having a government that could enact austerity.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:47
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unpacked robinhood posted:Belgium worked reasonably well with no government.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:49
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khwarezm posted:I always find this dodgy logic since Russia before the revolution was growing at a ridiculous pace and with or without Capitalism or Communism it has a gigantic population, vast natural resources and a huge amount of land to work with. It's pretty solid considering that very few other non-western countries with large populations, vast natural resources and a huge amount of land to work with managed to even industrialize properly. Just look at the Congo. Hence the USSR had to have been doing something right. Also the thing that was growing at a ridiculous pace in pre-revolutionary Russia was the agricultural sector, which isn't exactly a recipe for long-term success post-industrial revolution. While industry was growing a lot comparatively, it was still very much a tertiary sector of the economy before the revolution.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:54
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MiddleOne posted:It's still immensely funny to me that Belgium pretty much made it out well of the Eurozone crisis almost exclusively by not having a government that could enact austerity.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:57
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Cerebral Bore posted:It's pretty solid considering that very few other non-western countries with large populations, vast natural resources and a huge amount of land to work with managed to even industrialize properly. Just look at the Congo. Hence the USSR had to have been doing something right. Russia is a much more coherent entity than the Congo ever was, it has a long history as one of the primary powers of Europe and the world that goes back to at least the 16th century, a better comparison might be somewhere like China, but then China was a much more unstable country over the 19th and 20th centuries. Additionally Tsarist industrialization was a very heavily state sponsored affair with incentives provided by the government to try and attract significant amounts of foreign capital, especially from France. Without that industrialization and the rapidly growing industrial working class living in horrific conditions its questionable that the Bolsheviks would have been anywhere near as influential, after all they had little influence in the countryside until the Civil War. Point is, almost everyone in Europe could see Russia's vast potential well before the Bolsheviks took power, to the point that it was serious concern in German foreign policy and military planning, and that potential was starting to become real in the two decades before the war. Petroleum exploitation was skyrocketing, coal production was booming as was steel and iron, most of these industries remained a huge focus of the Soviet economy. I Don't think a continuation of Tsarism would have meant that Russia industrialized with anywhere near the speed it did under the Communists, and that might have been critical to allow it to fight the Nazis but there's no reason to assume that without Communism Russia would not have become a major industrial power. But its not all about industry, part of the problem that the Soviet economy had was that it was poorly balanced and by the 70s it was very vulnerable to changes in the price of commodities like Oil and Gas while the military was sucking up too many resources. I think its safe to say that they could have had a better system.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:32
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Wait, hold the phone here, are you seriously arguing that Tsarist Russia was some kind of unified and coherent polity? As for the rest, the economic data doesn't bear out your supposition. Russia would most likely have ended up as a de facto colony of the western imperial powers without a radical restructuring of the economy and political systems that the Tsarist government simply wasn't capable of achieving. And finally, the original point here was that I used the actual economic history of the USSR as an example of why the claim that state economic planning must necessarily lead to bad outcomes is bullshit, and I don't really see what all this has to do with any of it.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:45
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Cerebral Bore posted:Wait, hold the phone here, are you seriously arguing that Tsarist Russia was some kind of unified and coherent polity? It was unified enough, it could it still claim general authority within its borders until WW1 and conduct business like a genuine government, like I just said it was hugely important in kickstarting the initial wave of industrialization I've been talking about. In any event the nation of Russia existed and exists with or without the Tsar, I find it hard to see the country splintering for any long period of time. It was nowhere near the level of somewhere like Congo which is your example and I think its a major reach to say that Russia would have become a de-facto western colony based on what we see happening by the beginning of the twentieth century, I might as well say Japan was becoming a de-facto western colony. It was clearly in the beginning stages of wide ranging industrialization that had already been underway almost everywhere in Europe and the USA. Point remains that the USSR's economy had a laundry list of problems that couldn't be rectified before the collapse, and probably caused that collapse more than anything else.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:01
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Libluini posted:And I have no idea what Orange Devil was going on about UK, US and planned economy. Was he talking about wartime economies? He can't be that stupid oh wait this is D&D I just answered my own question, right? If we can mobilize the entirety of an international coalition of nation's resources to drop bombs on Nazi's (a noble cause) then why couldn't we do the same to provide education and healthcare to all or to stave off the existential crisis that is climate change? Why the gently caress does anyone need to make a profit out of teaching other people poo poo or helping them not die? Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 22:21
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Cerebral Bore posted:Wait, hold the phone here, are you seriously arguing that Tsarist Russia was some kind of unified and coherent polity? Once again, a teenage communist whiteknighting the loving Soviet Union and Stalin. The irony being that in other threads, you'll be whining about how Trump's wall is the biggest human rights violation ever and how terrible living standards for the poor are in the UK. The USSR is the textbook example of failed central planning, because, you know, it failed. Instead of trying to defend it (which makes you and all other leftists look even more retarded) you could have just said it's not a valid example and then inserted some handwringing.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:25
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Cerebral Bore posted:Wait, hold the phone here, are you seriously arguing that Tsarist Russia was some kind of unified and coherent polity? It did it by having even worse conditions for workers than the west.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:50
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so, to open the 15th Legislature of the Fifth Republic, our députés have to name people to run various tasks and commitees around the Assemblée one of said tasks is to oversee the budget of the Assemblée itself; three people are named for this, and the precedent, going back to 1973, is to give two of those seats to the majority and one to the opposition, which in this case would be Eric Ciotti of Les Républicains' group but then, instead, the whole thing had to go to a vote because the center-right splinter group called "Les Constructifs", who are much more amenable to Macron, brought forward their own candidate in Thierry Solère; and since La République en Marche has the absolute majority, he won that vote in reaction, LR are pulling out from all duties in the Assemblée, meaning that all the candidates for the Vice-Presidency of the Assemblée are all from the majority, which again breaks precedent because usually the opposition gets two of those six seats, and again LREM and the MoDem sweep, and now it's a clusterfuck and everyone is mad it's beautiful https://twitter.com/LCP/status/880183668706299904
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Jun 29, 2017 00:19
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Cerebral Bore posted:Also the thing that was growing at a ridiculous pace in pre-revolutionary Russia was the agricultural sector, which isn't exactly a recipe for long-term success post-industrial revolution. While industry was growing a lot comparatively, it was still very much a tertiary sector of the economy before the revolution. Newsflash: That's how industrialization began in Western countries, too.
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Jun 29, 2017 07:32
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ElNarez posted:so, to open the 15th Legislature of the Fifth Republic, our députés have to name people to run various tasks and commitees around the Assemblée love to see the right making GBS threads it, also gently caress ciotti
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Jun 29, 2017 07:57
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Orange Devil posted:If we can mobilize the entirety of an international coalition of nation's resources to drop bombs on Nazi's (a noble cause) then why couldn't we do the same to provide education and healthcare to all or to stave off the existential crisis that is climate change? Because we can't. A few years of war-footing is incredibly expensive and unsustainable. Case in point for the UK: Their world-spanning empire didn't survive two world wars in a row. The US only survived this 'cause it could draw of the resources of nearly an entire continent on its own. And even then the massive over-production caused by WWII threw the USA into a serious economic crisis after the war ended. A shorter answer would be "Humans.". 
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Jun 29, 2017 08:24
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ElNarez posted:it's a clusterfuck and everyone is mad
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Jun 29, 2017 08:32
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khwarezm posted:It was unified enough, it could it still claim general authority within its borders until WW1 and conduct business like a genuine government, like I just said it was hugely important in kickstarting the initial wave of industrialization I've been talking about. In any event the nation of Russia existed and exists with or without the Tsar, I find it hard to see the country splintering for any long period of time. Except that the country did splinter post-revolution and much of it had to be reconquered by the Red Army? And then it splintered again when the USSR broke up? khwarezm posted:It was nowhere near the level of somewhere like Congo which is your example and I think its a major reach to say that Russia would have become a de-facto western colony based on what we see happening by the beginning of the twentieth century, I might as well say Japan was becoming a de-facto western colony. It was clearly in the beginning stages of wide ranging industrialization that had already been underway almost everywhere in Europe and the USA. No, it wasn't. I suggest you watch this, and then read the book. And the point remains that economic planning is, in fact, a very efficient tool that doesn't necessarily lead to everything collapsing. Hell, there was major economic planning in postwar Europe as well, that didn't lead to collapse. Einbauschrank posted:Newsflash: That's how industrialization began in Western countries, too. Newsflash: What worked at the start of the industrial revolution stopped working once there were mature industrial economies on the global market. Senor Dog posted:It did it by having even worse conditions for workers than the west. I don't see what this has to do with anything except for the tautological observation that poorer countries tend to have lower living standards. EDIT: Or the even more tautological statement that people liging dictatorships tend to have less rights. Geriatric Pirate posted:Once again, a teenage communist whiteknighting the loving Soviet Union and Stalin. The irony being that in other threads, you'll be whining about how Trump's wall is the biggest human rights violation ever and how terrible living standards for the poor are in the UK. lol, hey GP tell me more about how doubling down on neoliberalism is totally going to work this time. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Jun 29, 2017 |
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Jun 29, 2017 08:56
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The Soviet Union only failed because there was not enough computing power to model a perfect distribution of goods and services. The Gosplan would work today.
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Jun 29, 2017 09:02
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Flowers For Algeria posted:The Soviet Union only failed because there was not enough computing power to model a perfect distribution of goods and services.  [citation needed] quote:The Gosplan would work today.  [wait, what?] What kind of numerical computations are you planning to do that were too expensive to perform in 1985?
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Jun 29, 2017 09:20
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Flowers For Algeria posted:The Soviet Union only failed because there was not enough computing power to model a perfect distribution of goods and services. this
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Jun 29, 2017 09:25
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There were definitely problems with the Gosplan (though a lot of them were self-inflicted), and I don't really think it's the model to adopt for building socialism in first-world countries since we kinda don't need to perform a crash industrialization. This certainly doesn't mean that the concept of economic planning should be thrown out, though.
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Jun 29, 2017 09:25
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Cerebral Bore posted:There were definitely problems with the Gosplan (though a lot of them were self-inflicted), and I don't really think it's the model to adopt for building socialism in first-world countries since we kinda don't need to perform a crash industrialization. This certainly doesn't mean that the concept of economic planning should be thrown out, though.  Gosplan isn't even remotely applicable to our modern economies that are 80%+ based on services and are >90% consumer economies. It was a scheme designed to keep pumping out insane amount of arms and heavy industrial goods. In anything related to consumer goods or services it was a complete disaster. The only worthwhile thing that the Soviet economy managed to produce throughout it's history were arms and only because everything in the economy was geared towards that. Its defense spending was absolutely obscene.
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Jun 29, 2017 09:37
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Flowers For Algeria posted:The Soviet Union only failed because there was not enough computing power to model a perfect distribution of goods and services. I'm the script kiddie crashing your system and causing famines on day 3
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Jun 29, 2017 09:41
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:
Well, that and also an enormous increase in living standards due to the whole actually managing to industrialize thing. Problem was that they never managed to shift priorities once the heavy industrial base was in place. Deltasquid posted:I'm the script kiddie crashing your system and causing famines on day 3 Why are you assuming that the planning systems would be connected to the internet? And besides that, a lot of planning goes on in every government in every country across the world, and somehow society hasn't collapsed due to script kiddies as of yet.
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Jun 29, 2017 09:44
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Maybe the Gosplan was bad wrt consumer goods and services because it didn't have the processing power to handle consumers goods and services. Just saying
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Jun 29, 2017 09:47
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Basically what I'm saying is that Communism is Soviet power plus quantum computers
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Jun 29, 2017 09:52
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we need to put our consciouness in communist robots
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Jun 29, 2017 09:53
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