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Digirat posted:So did they actually change sae nijima's heart or not My impression from the story is that you, Joker, changed her heart over the course of the interrogation through the power of being an awesome dude.
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Jun 26, 2017 01:30
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Badger of Basra posted:I was confused about this. Since they were down there being sad and stuff, did that mean stealing their hearts actually was a bad thing? Nah, it just meant that they were part of the general public's subconscious again, instead of being so absorbed up their own assholes that they created their own worlds inside their heads.
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Jun 26, 2017 03:24
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The profound outwards effect of a change of heart is caused by a person's excuses and justifications being stripped away, forcing them to confront the terrible things they did honestly. Speaking to the shadow and causing it to rejoin the conscious mind is a part of this, but it isn't strictly necessary. Just like in Persona 4, when a shadow is beat down and its will is weakened, you can have a truly honest literal heart-to-heart, which allows you to reason with them and offer direction to an extent (though you can't force them into any particular action just by speaking to them). The shadow returning to the conscious is also not permanent, unlike when a person awakens as a persona user. That is why their shadows appeared in Mementos at the end.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:30
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SatansBestBuddy posted:Nah, it just meant that they were part of the general public's subconscious again, instead of being so absorbed up their own assholes that they created their own worlds inside their heads. My interpretation was that while it's good that we destroyed all the palaces, it was also in service of Yaldoboth's aims. Yaldoboth had original believed it could destroy reality by pushing those with strong desires out, but later discovered that those desires were still in the way of it destroying everything and sent you to solve it's problem.
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Jun 26, 2017 05:23
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Deltasquid posted:I'm sorry, did I miss this?? Come explain yourself in the spoiler thread, my man During Real Igor's talk with the main cast, he revealed that there were two intended multiple Persona casters. Akechi who was suppose to fight for chaos and against Yaldabaoth, while the protagonist was suppose to fight for Yaldabaoth. However, things didn't play out like that due to unplanned reasons.
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Jun 27, 2017 08:58
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punk rebel ecks posted:During Real Igor's talk with the main cast, he revealed that there were two intended multiple Persona casters. Akechi who was suppose to fight for chaos and against Yaldabaoth, while the protagonist was suppose to fight for Yaldabaoth. However, things didn't play out like that due to unplanned reasons. He revealed that Yaldy gave two people the Persona power but they were both basically working for him in a game where Yaldy was the only player. I think it was something like that if Akechi won Yaldy would decide "k society can just be destroyed" while if Joker won he'd go "k guess society can come under my direct and complete control". They were both fighting for him basically Though Joker was already planned to be brought into the Velvet Room anyway (as Strength confidant shows Lavensa was expecting him) so he was going to get the wild card and poo poo anyway probably. Tricksters man, they have no allegiances.
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Jun 27, 2017 09:16
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In a way, Changing Hearts is kind of doing the Yaldobath thing, because you are explicitly taking control of humanity, because they are sinful and need to be controlled (thouhg on a smaller scale). Kamoshida and the like (and the indifference humanity shows to them) are basicaly the arguments society makes for 'no, really, look at what humanity does with its free will, Yaldobath has a point'
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Jun 27, 2017 09:58
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SyntheticPolygon posted:He revealed that Yaldy gave two people the Persona power but they were both basically working for him in a game where Yaldy was the only player. I think it was something like that if Akechi won Yaldy would decide "k society can just be destroyed" while if Joker won he'd go "k guess society can come under my direct and complete control". They were both fighting for him basically It's funny because one rank of the Strength SL has the twins go 'man, even Igor didn't know Joker was going to have the Wild Card before they met'. Or maybe it's more of 'Lavenza knew that whoever was going to be used in Igor's game must have the Wild card potential'. Incidentally, I'm playing through the game again and I'm not sure why the PTs never brought up just letting Kaneshiro have a mental shutdown. Sure it's because they have morals and the idea of killing isn't to their liking, but literally nobody would miss him if he were gone.
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Jun 27, 2017 10:10
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ApplesandOranges posted:It's funny because one rank of the Strength SL has the twins go 'man, even Igor didn't know Joker was going to have the Wild Card before they met'. Or maybe it's more of 'Lavenza knew that whoever was going to be used in Igor's game must have the Wild card potential'. Giving him a mental shutdown just means that someone else would take over his scheme, having him confess and turn himself in means the police can take down his whole operation.
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Jun 27, 2017 10:39
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ApplesandOranges posted:It's funny because one rank of the Strength SL has the twins go 'man, even Igor didn't know Joker was going to have the Wild Card before they met'. Or maybe it's more of 'Lavenza knew that whoever was going to be used in Igor's game must have the Wild card potential'. Once you start making the calls who deserves to live and who deserves to die, you've kind of seriously changed how you're handling this thing. And even with Kamoshida, who was a lot more personal and close to home in his abuse, the Thieves balked at killing him. If that rear end in a top hat didn't get them handing out death sentences, I imagine they're dedicated to a 'no kill' run.
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Jun 27, 2017 11:07
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Shogeton posted:Once you start making the calls who deserves to live and who deserves to die, you've kind of seriously changed how you're handling this thing. And even with Kamoshida, who was a lot more personal and close to home in his abuse, the Thieves balked at killing him. If that rear end in a top hat didn't get them handing out death sentences, I imagine they're dedicated to a 'no kill' run. Well, as Ann puts it, there are fates worse than a quick death. Having to live out the rest of their lives suffering with the guilt of their crimes was kind of the point.
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Jun 27, 2017 11:12
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punk rebel ecks posted:During Real Igor's talk with the main cast, he revealed that there were two intended multiple Persona casters. Akechi who was suppose to fight for chaos and against Yaldabaoth, while the protagonist was suppose to fight for Yaldabaoth. However, things didn't play out like that due to unplanned reasons. Replying a bit late, but I don't think any of this implies Akechi knew anything whatsoever about Yaldabaoth, the Holy Grail or even mementos' existence prior to joining the PT. He got played behind the scenes by Shido, the Phantom Thieves and also by Yaldabaoth. He was a chump who was out of the loop from beginning to end.
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Jun 27, 2017 15:28
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SyntheticPolygon posted:He revealed that Yaldy gave two people the Persona power but they were both basically working for him in a game where Yaldy was the only player. I think it was something like that if Akechi won Yaldy would decide "k society can just be destroyed" while if Joker won he'd go "k guess society can come under my direct and complete control". They were both fighting for him basically So more or less what I said? That's a serious question because it seems that some people disagree with what I said. But it seems similar to your summary. Deltasquid posted:Replying a bit late, but I don't think any of this implies Akechi knew anything whatsoever about Yaldabaoth, the Holy Grail or even mementos' existence prior to joining the PT. He got played behind the scenes by Shido, the Phantom Thieves and also by Yaldabaoth. He was a chump who was out of the loop from beginning to end. Akechi likely knew as much as Joker initially, i.e. nothing.
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Jun 27, 2017 16:13
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unsure if this has been linked yet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX-fWELtYPI
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Jun 27, 2017 16:22
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punk rebel ecks posted:So more or less what I said? That's a serious question because it seems that some people disagree with what I said. But it seems similar to your summary. Akechi wasn't ever supposed to be fighting against Yaldy and both were pawns in his game as Yaldy was cool with both outcomes. Akechi moreso than Joker as Joker was apparently going to be entering the Velvet Room anyway and would've gotten a Persona without Yaldy's intervention.
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Jun 28, 2017 11:06
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I don't know. yaldi seems like the guy who'd rather rule than destroy, and he was actually being very helpful to Joker, while he left Akechi to just wander around.
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Jun 28, 2017 11:22
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Finally beat the game. Loved it. I gotta say that for all the talk about Joker there was a disappointing lack of Just give us a DLC mask.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:03
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Turns out Sae was the Old Maid all along.
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Jun 29, 2017 06:34
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Shogeton posted:I don't know. yaldi seems like the guy who'd rather rule than destroy, and he was actually being very helpful to Joker, while he left Akechi to just wander around. Yaldy doesn't actually do anything in the Velvet Room. It's all Caroline and Justine. In previous games it's Igor who does all the fusing and everything but not this time. Probably because Yaldy ain't Igor and y'know can't.
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Jun 29, 2017 07:36
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Oh, of course, but Caroline and Justine are taking orders from him. He could have told them that we were unworthy, etc., but he didn't, and very much encourages them to assist us. And of course, why wouldn't he. We are constantly putting 'escaped prisoners' back into the big prison. Which fits thematically really. Yaldobath's 'case' is 'freedom really sucks. Most of humanity doesn't really use it or want it and prefers to just sit back and leave it to others. And the people who do use it are sinful, evil assholes'
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Jun 29, 2017 09:47
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They explain directly in the game that Yaldy wanted to raise the wild card up and then crush him at his highest point as one final gently caress you to Igor. The thing is literally the collective unconscious's treasure; it innately knew how people would react to the phantom thieves (up until the twins reform and they get a second chance) and Akechi was just another pawn in the rigged game to spur Joker on as far as possible before humanity inevitably turned its back on him.
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Jun 29, 2017 10:11
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Perfect Potato posted:They explain directly in the game that Yaldy wanted to raise the wild card up and then crush him at his highest point as one final gently caress you to Igor. The thing is literally the collective unconscious's treasure; it innately knew how people would react to the phantom thieves (up until the twins reform and they get a second chance) and Akechi was just another pawn in the rigged game to spur Joker on as far as possible before humanity inevitably turned its back on him. You know, that mirrors Akechi's plans interestingly enough. "I assist them to get them as far and high as possible, just so I can make them fall all the harder' Explains also why he's a lot more agreeable than the other Big Bads to make a sweet deal. Crushing Igor's chosen one at his height is sweet, but turning him is sweeter.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:27
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demota posted:Finally beat the game. Loved it. I gotta say that for all the talk about Joker there was a disappointing lack of I was disappointed when Akechi's berserk persona turned out to not be Nyarlathotep. i think that would have been a neat throwback.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:36
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Radish posted:I was disappointed when Akechi's berserk persona turned out to not be Nyarlathotep. i think that would have been a neat throwback. nyarlathotep has better places to be than that chump's brain
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Jun 29, 2017 17:44
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Maybe true but was Tatsuya Sudou really any less of a serial killer loser with a complex about his lovely villainous politician dad?
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Jun 29, 2017 18:01
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Loki is a lot more thematically appropriate though.
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Jun 29, 2017 19:05
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Something that's been bugging me about Iwai's storyline. Why the hell did the Yakuza need a whole big shipment of fake guns? I mean, wouldn't they be more in the business of selling real ones? Especially if you're selling to the Russian Mafia or whoever they were supposed to be for? There's probably some obvious answer I'm not getting, but, it's bugging me all the same.
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Jul 3, 2017 15:12
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the_steve posted:Something that's been bugging me about Iwai's storyline. There is no need to spoiler stuff in the spoiler thread. Anyway the point is that the guy was going for real guns but got tricked so is desperately looking for something to make it look as though he didn't gently caress up.
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Jul 3, 2017 15:17
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Iwai does sell real guns, he can just only sell fake ones to you since you're 16 or something
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Jul 3, 2017 18:52
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Digirat posted:Iwai does sell real guns, he can just only sell fake ones to you since you're 16 or something No he doesn't? Like he's in Tokyo. That's wildly illegal and part of the opening to his social link is about how he almost gets busted for selling too-realistic looking fake guns.
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Jul 3, 2017 19:02
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Sorry if this thread is already chock full of questions about the thieves double crossing Akechi plan, but the one part I didn't understand is why were the cops not confused about there suddenly being a massive casino in the middle of Tokyo that wasn't there before?
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Jul 3, 2017 19:16
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Purple Monkey posted:Sorry if this thread is already chock full of questions about the thieves double crossing Akechi plan, but the one part I didn't understand is why were the cops not confused about there suddenly being a massive casino in the middle of Tokyo that wasn't there before? Presumably yes, but what are they going to do about it? During the early part of your interrogation Sae talks about how she's willing to believe in the metaverse because your story matches up with theirs, so presumably they were debriefed and told to keep quiet. Who'd believe them anyway?
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Jul 3, 2017 19:35
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Zore posted:No he doesn't? well his story makes no sense if the entire thing and everything you see in his store is fake guns haha
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Jul 3, 2017 19:38
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Digirat posted:well his story makes no sense if the entire thing and everything you see in his store is fake guns haha Yeah he tells the Yakuza guy that. But the Yakuza dude is freaking out since he hosed up and lost a real shipment of guns so he's deperately trying to get Iwai to make realistic fakes to shift the blame. Its kinda dumb, but Iwai as presented only does pretty realistic airsoft stuff.
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Jul 3, 2017 19:42
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Digirat posted:well his story makes no sense if the entire thing and everything you see in his store is fake guns haha Yakuza guy lost a shipment of real guns, wants to get real-looking models from Iwai to scam the guys he had a deal with for the real guns.
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Jul 3, 2017 20:04
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Deltasquid posted:Yakuza guy lost a shipment of real guns, wants to get real-looking models from Iwai to scam the guys he had a deal with for the real guns. What did he think would happen when they found out they weren't real?
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Jul 3, 2017 21:21
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Badger of Basra posted:What did he think would happen when they found out they weren't real? He would blame the people that shipped them as scammers.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:26
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Badger of Basra posted:What did he think would happen when they found out they weren't real? Iwai's old Yakuza bro isn't shown to be all that smart. So, yeah. Besides, it wouldn't work thematically with Iwai's insistence on going straight for the sake of his adopted kid if he was selling real guns.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:43
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Plus I suspect that model guns in Japan could still be quite useful. Yakuza games are hardly documentary, but I get a sense that Japanese society, particularly the criminal element, relies on an element of drama for things to run. Having the appearance of power is all one needs. Show up with a dozen guys, all carrying rifles? Makes a statement. But get double-crossed and the cops swarm the meet? Oh, no sweat officer, these are all just very realistic model guns. It's kind of silly, but I also see it making a lot of sense. Gun violence is really, really low in Japan, isn't it?
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Jul 3, 2017 23:50
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Badger of Basra posted:What did he think would happen when they found out they weren't real? Obviously, they would shoot him. But the jokes on them because all their guns are fake! This is as far as he thought it through. Edit: Ask Me For Warez posted:He would blame the people that shipped them as scammers. Yeah, what really happened was he made a million dollar deal and came back with no guns, so if he can show up with fake guns at least he can save some face and blame someone else. DalaranJ fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Jul 4, 2017 |
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Jul 4, 2017 00:08
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