|
Bob le Moche posted:- The entire history of democratically-elected socialist governments and CIA inverventions in Latin America, including the history of such an intervention against the Chavista government in 2002 (vs "this time it's different i know it!") Ok, so we're supposed to not have democracy ever then. Bob le Moche posted:- The funding of a strong USAID presence in Venezuela (Well-documented vector of regime change) There's a well established presence of Cuban revolutionaries and Cuban military officers, well documented vectors of regime change in the region. Bob le Moche posted:- US sanctions on Venezuela (you must be extremely naive to believe that these sanctions are in good faith and that other foreign government officials are judged by the US according to the same standards) Nobody in Venezuela other than billionaire government officials are affected by these sanctions. These government officials had billions of dollars in assets in the US, where do you think they got that money? Bob le Moche posted:- Multiple leaks revealing plans against Venezuela. (Even without the leaks, believing in the non-existence of such plans, given knowledge of history, is again extremely naive) Like loving what? Name one coming from a source that isn't Maduro himself. Bob le Moche posted:- Massive US financial and military support for Venezuela's primary competitor on the international market, a brutal dictatorship that commits countless crimes against its people and numerous war crimes This is the most absurd loving thing I've ever heard. Venezuela's primary competitor isn't Saudi Arabia, they're not competitors, they're in the OPEC. Even then, Saudi Arabia has an entirely different market reach, they eclipse Venezuelan production. Venezuela's competition comes from within the same region, Mexico and Brazil have since exceeded Venezuelan production and aren't bound by the OPEC pact. Bob le Moche posted:- Methods that have been sponsored by the CIA in other instances of regime change, such as phone company movistar spamming people with anti-government texts, or the "green helmets" PR campaign in western media, etc In my 6 or so years of being a Movistar user I never received any such message and the government would have taken down the company immediately if they actually did so. I know a green helmet, he's a childhood friend, they're volunteer paramedics who tend to the people injured in protests, they're not fictitious. Bob le Moche posted:- Friends in Venezuela who share this view, and are not white youtubers or wealthy expats There's people in Venezuela right now, or that lived in Venezuela until last year that are telling you the country is a loving nightmare to live in, riddle me that. Bob le Moche posted:US-based media compagnies like Twitter blocking pro-Maduro Venezuelan accounts as a matter of policy, while allowing literal nazis to use the platform The government blocked all access to social networks yesterday. Bob le Moche posted:- People who get all their ideas from pro-Imperialism outlets continuing to display their ignorance of basic facts about the situation to me, such as ignoring the fact that the parliament was suspended because of electoral fraud, ignoring deaths at the hands of the opposition, etc The parliament wasn't suspended because of electoral fraud, and on the contested seats the CNE never called for new elections. The CNE has also failed to call for regional elections, which were due last year, they've also completely ignored the constitutional requirement to hold a referendum for the constituent assembly, which Chavez himself did when he summoned a constituent assembly. Bob le Moche posted:There is literally nothing I can do as a North American to help with what the Venezuelan people are going through, except opposing my own government's complicity in all of the above. I have no power in Venezuela and no influence over the government there. I also know very well how bad things will get if the opposition gets in power, because again I am not a naive tool with no knowledge of history or the realities of politics. When this happens the rest of you will either reveal yourselves as the fascists that you are and openly support the death squads, or will suddenly lose all interest in what's going on in Venezuela and pretend nothing is happening like the liberal bootlickers that you are. I disagree, I think you're a naive tool with no knowledge of history or the realities of politics, particularly on anything related to Venezuela. Leave the thread, you're way too clueless about the subject and you refuse to actually read the things people are posting to you. You've got nothing but buzzwords. You're supporting actual loving deathsquads; 6 people, aged 18 to 26, were killed yesterday by government forces, 4 of them were shot dead.
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 18:31 |
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:If your supposed leftism consists in supporting tax-funded welfare reforms for the people who have citizenship in your own first-world nation, while simultaneously supporting wars and military action abroad, and imperialist interventions against countries that oppose your nation's domination or threaten the international financial interests of your nation's private businesses, then you are a fascist, sorry. lol
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:22
|
|
|
COME SAVE US BORNEO JIM WE NEED YOU NOW, AT OUR DARKEST HOUR
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:23
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:If your supposed leftism consists in supporting tax-funded welfare reforms for the people who have citizenship in your own first-world nation, while simultaneously supporting wars and military action abroad, and imperialist interventions against countries that oppose your nation's domination or threaten the international financial interests of your nation's private businesses, then you are a fascist, sorry. Ignoring the argument entirely while turning around and attacking the other party for the very same charge? Donald Trump, is that you?
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:24
|
|
|
The other thing that you folks need to understand about all these evil "crazy" brown/oriental dictators that your media keeps warning you about, is that they only get to be where they are in the first place, and to be able to maintain a strong enough base of popular support for their "authoritarian" policies, because they are seen as the only line of defense against foreign imperialism and the brutal pressures of international capitalism. If you want the "strongmen" to go away, you should work towards making your own government stop systematically harassing/threatening/attacking every country that ever questions its hegemony, and allow the people of the world to have some self-determination without policing the outcome.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:32
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:The other thing that you folks need to understand about all these evil "crazy" brown/oriental dictators that your media keeps warning you about, is that they only get to be where they are in the first place, and to be able to maintain a strong enough base of popular support for their "authoritarian" policies, because they are seen as the only line of defense against foreign imperialism and the brutal pressures of international capitalism. If you want the "strongmen" to go away, you should work towards making your own government stop systematically harassing/threatening/attacking every country that ever questions its hegemony, and allow the people of the world to have some self-determination without policing the outcome. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:35
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:The other thing that you folks need to understand about all these evil "crazy" brown/oriental dictators that your media keeps warning you about, is that they only get to be where they are in the first place, and to be able to maintain a strong enough base of popular support for their "authoritarian" policies, because they are seen as the only line of defense against foreign imperialism and the brutal pressures of international capitalism. If you want the "strongmen" to go away, you should work towards making your own government stop systematically harassing/threatening/attacking every country that ever questions its hegemony, and allow the people of the world to have some self-determination without policing the outcome. hrmm yes the people get the dictators they want and deserve 
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:37
|
|
|
In short,Punkin Spunkin posted:COME SAVE US BORNEO JIM
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:38
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:The other thing that you folks need to understand about all these evil "crazy" brown/oriental dictators that your media keeps warning you about, is that they only get to be where they are in the first place, and to be able to maintain a strong enough base of popular support for their "authoritarian" policies, because they are seen as the only line of defense against foreign imperialism and the brutal pressures of international capitalism. If you want the "strongmen" to go away, you should work towards making your own government stop systematically harassing/threatening/attacking every country that ever questions its hegemony, and allow the people of the world to have some self-determination without policing the outcome. I completely applaud this brave post, and brave poster. We need to step back, and let Venezuelans living in the country have some self-determination without policing the outcome. Like, for example, if they don't like the current government and are staging massive protests, we need to say "This is what they choose, they are trying to remove a government they don't like" rather than saying they're all CIA stooges and its a yanqui plot to overthrow an idiot and his gang of thieves. I am glad you have finally come around.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:46
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:The other thing that you folks need to understand about all these evil "crazy" brown/oriental dictators that your media keeps warning you about, is that they only get to be where they are in the first place, and to be able to maintain a strong enough base of popular support for their "authoritarian" policies, because they are seen as the only line of defense against foreign imperialism and the brutal pressures of international capitalism. If you want the "strongmen" to go away, you should work towards making your own government stop systematically harassing/threatening/attacking every country that ever questions its hegemony, and allow the people of the world to have some self-determination without policing the outcome. You aren't even reading this thread are you?
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:49
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:You aren't even reading this thread are you? I think there have been... two? posters who said "we need an armed rebellion/civil war" and the immediate response was "gently caress no, and a double gently caress no to any foreign intervention". Everyone agrees that Venezuelans need to decide their own future. They're trying to do that right now. To then say 'Nah, they don't actually have any agency, they're all just CIA pawns." is so loving mindblowingly tankie stupid, and racist. not everything is about the loving USA. Venezuela has a really bad case of Dutch Disease and Maduro and his cronies are only concerned with holding unto the wealth and power that the oil brings them, and not on trying to continue a socialist government. why are you so devoted to carrying water for Maduro, he's terrible, and he is taking the whole apparatus of the PSUV down with him.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 16:56
|
|
|
Laphroaig posted:Everyone agrees that Venezuelans need to decide their own future. And the only thing that non-Venezuelans can do to ensure that is to be honest and recognize what their own government's interest is in the situation, and work towards preventing it from acting on it and interfering. I couldn't provide material support for Maduro's government even if I wanted to, nobody in Venezuela cares what I think about him. Powerful interests in North America who want to ensure things go their way in Venezuela however do care about the support for intervention or lack thereof.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 17:08
|
|
|
Hey Bob, how about replying to Chuck or Fnox's point by point blows to your earlier post? They're both Venezuelans, with Fnox being on the spot until quite recently. Or are you like Borneo Jimmy, incapable of doing anything besides dancing around and switching the topic when someone presents you with a fact? You're a saint for replying to the tankie equivalent of chavistas, Chuck. Even if they are unwilling to listen to others, at least others following the thread won't think there's any credence to posts like that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 17:08
|
|
|
Still waiting for evidence that the CIA is involved in this particular situation. The CIA doing hosed poo poo in the past is not evidence that they're doing it now.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 17:15
|
|
|
Saladman posted:Hey Bob, how about replying to Chuck or Fnox's point by point blows to your earlier post? They're both Venezuelans, with Fnox being on the spot until quite recently. Half of these answers make no sense to me. Like "Ok, so we're supposed to not have democracy ever then.", what? How did you get there?? I was also responding to someone asking me why I thought the CIA was involved and most of these answers are "but Maduro's regime did bad things too" which I never contested and wasn't what we were talking about. Other things that I am not contesting: the fact that things are really bad in Venezuela or that there are massive opposition protests.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 17:19
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:Other things that I am not contesting: the fact that things are really bad in Venezuela or that there are massive opposition protests. If you know that things are really bad in Venezuela why the gently caress would you be against a change in government?
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 17:21
|
|
|
fnox posted:If you know that things are really bad in Venezuela why the gently caress would you be against a change in government? Clearly the opposition is led by zombie CIA agent Pol Pot.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 17:22
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:Half of these answers make no sense to me. Try growing up and then coming back.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 17:30
|
|
|
fnox posted:If you know that things are really bad in Venezuela why the gently caress would you be against a change in government? I am obviously not against any change in government in the abstract but I do know that were the opposition to seize power within the present conditions, it would make things a lot worse for the most vulnerable in Venezuelan society, because I understand where power lies in the movement and what it stands for, what is at stake, who stands to gain, and which interests are trying to make things go their way, and because I have knowledge of Latin American history and an understanding of the realities of politics under capitalism. The opposition is led primarily by the middle and upper class, by business owners and the privileged; it is backed by imperialist interests including the CIA, and will assert its power over the country with the utmost violence and repression once it obtains it, secure in the knowledge that the US and international media will let them get away with anything and remain completely silent about their abuses, and that they have the full support of the most powerful country on earth and of international capital. This scenario has all played itself out many times before and in many other places around the world.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 17:54
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:I am obviously not against any change in government in the abstract but I do know that were the opposition to seize power within the present conditions, it would make things a lot worse for the most vulnerable in Venezuelan society, because I understand where power lies in the movement and what it stands for, what is at stake, who stands to gain, and which interests are trying to make things go their way, and because I have knowledge of Latin American history and an understanding of the realities of politics under capitalism. So you're guessing, then?
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:01
|
|
|
Using the historical record, facts, methods that have proven themselves, and critical reasoning to come to a conclusion is not "guessing". Ignoring all of the above and going "it's gonna be different this time, I have faith" is not really guessing either but it's naive, wrong, and insane according to one popular definition of insanity.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:04
|
|
|
madeintaipei posted:So you're guessing, then? And projecting to boot. Sub "the CIA" and "right wing authoritarians" for "the KGB" and "communists" and suddenly you've got a pro Pinochet poster.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:06
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:Using the historical record, facts, methods that have proven themselves, and reasoning with a critical mind to come to a conclusion is not "guessing". You are not saying anything.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:06
|
|
|
Quorum posted:And projecting to boot. Sub "the CIA" and "right wing authoritarians" for "the KGB" and "communists" and suddenly you've got a pro Pinochet poster. It's very clever how you figured out that politics is a thing that exists
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:08
|
|
|
I legit miss borneo jim at this point
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:10
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:It's very clever how you figured out that politics is a thing that exists What, exactly, do you mean by this? e: I have made a mistake by engaging. I am sorry Venegoons, please keep posting regardless of this mess. madeintaipei fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jun 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:13
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:I am obviously not against any change in government in the abstract but I do know that were the opposition to seize power within the present conditions, it would make things a lot worse for the most vulnerable in Venezuelan society, because I understand where power lies in the movement and what it stands for, what is at stake, who stands to gain, and which interests are trying to make things go their way, and because I have knowledge of Latin American history and an understanding of the realities of politics under capitalism. How the gently caress is 80% of the population part of the middle/upper class? Would you seriously defend a government that kills its own people and treats them like poo poo while stealing whatever remains of the country's coffers, over ANYTHING else? How are you not seeing that the current government is exactly what you think an opposition government will become, just not CIA backed? You keep saying "Oh I know Latin America", "Oh I know politics", "oh I'm so intelligent", but you straight up refuse to answer any question that is too hard to reply with anything other than "but the empire!".
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:40
|
|
|
fnox posted:How the gently caress is 80% of the population part of the middle/upper class? Because Chavez cut poverty so hard. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:41
|
|
|
fishmech posted:Because Chavez cut poverty so hard. We are all equal in death.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 18:44
|
|
|
I don't really expect to change the minds of any of you folks who are being super vocal against me in this thread. All I hope is that once things eventually play out the way that I laid out above, and when most of you suddenly go completely silent about the situation, some people will question why they didn't see all this coming and hopefully will decide to think more critically and to try to stop this all from happening again in the future.madeintaipei posted:What, exactly, do you mean by this? What I mean is that you need to stop pretending like the role of government is about nothing more than the rational and enlightened management of society by elites for the good of all. We live in a world of slaves and slaveholders, a world where violence is the norm for most and is only the exception for a privileged few who get to live in their bubble and moralize while remaining oblivious to the realities of the lives of the people who clothe, feed, and care for them. You need to start recognizing that there are irreconcilable interests within capitalist society, that it's impossible for the masters and the workers to be at peace, and that the masters have shown time and time again throughout history to that they will stop at nothing to safeguard their position, that they will use the most abhorrent violence and the most devious manipulation to get their way and protect their interests. This is why it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that leftists and reactionaries hate and oppose each other. This is why throughout history some people turn to communism or anti-imperialist "strongmen" for hope and support, and others rely on the CIA, fascist movements, NATO, puppet states, etc to defend the status quo. The only people who get to pretend that picking a side is wrong, and that Pinochet supporters and anti-imperialists are the same, or who buy into similar horseshoe theory bullshit, are people so privileged and with their head so far up their own rear end that they can't tell what's at stake and why others understand this as a struggle over life and death. And this is also why it shouldn't be surprising and should be completely expected that when a socialist government gets elected democratically by a population living in poverty and with a mandate to redistribute wealth and private property; then business owners, ruling class people, international capital, and other powerful interests will never just politely accept the outcome, but in fact will accurately understand this as a threat to their domination and will use every measure available to them to discredit/attack/sabotage such a government and reassert power, with not the slightest consideration about the lives that will be destroyed in the process and the suffering that it will produce. When you deny this reality, when you pretend like these things don't happen or don't matter, you are doing a disservice to the oppressed in their struggle for liberation and are in fact picking a side, the side of the powerful, who are the only ones who benefit from this ideological narrative. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jun 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:15
|
|
|
Except for the part where they lost the most recent election. And then the PSVU and the Maduro government refused to seat the Amazoninias deputies, denying the indigenous regions representation because the election went so bad lmao
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:And this is also why it shouldn't be surprising and should be completely expected that when a socialist government gets elected democratically by a population living in poverty and with a mandate to redistribute wealth and private property; business owners, ruling class people, international capital, and other powerful interests will never just politely accept the outcome, but in fact will accurately understand this as a threat to their domination and will use every measure available to them to discredit/attack/sabotage such a government and reassert power There are not currently democratic elections in Venezuela, because the regime knows it would lose and does not accept that outcome
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
Lmao at least Borneo Jimmy attempted to answer, this guy straight up dodges any hard questions.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:24
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:What I mean is that you need to stop pretending like the role of government is about nothing more than the rational and enlightened management of society by elites for the good of all. We live in a world of slaves and slaveholders, a world where violence is the norm for most and is only the exception for a privileged few who get to live in their bubble and moralize while remaining oblivious to the realities of the lives of the people who clothe, feed, and care for them. You need to start recognizing that there are irreconcilable interests within capitalist society, that it's impossible for the masters and the workers to be at peace, and that the masters have shown time and time again throughout history to that they will stop at nothing to safeguard their position, that they will use the most abhorrent violence and the most devious manipulation to get their way and protect their interests. This is why it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that leftists and reactionaries hate and oppose each other. This is why throughout history some people turn to communism or anti-imperialist "strongmen" for hope and support, and others rely on the CIA, fascist movements, NATO, puppet states, etc to defend the status quo. The only people who get to pretend that picking a side is wrong, and that Pinochet supporters and anti-imperialists are the same, or who buy into similar horseshoe theory bullshit, are people so privileged and with their head so far up their own rear end that they can't tell what's at stake and why others understand this as a struggle over life and death. And this is also why it shouldn't be surprising and should be completely expected that when a socialist government gets elected democratically by a population living in poverty and with a mandate to redistribute wealth and private property; then business owners, ruling class people, international capital, and other powerful interests will never just politely accept the outcome, but in fact will accurately understand this as a threat to their domination and will use every measure available to them to discredit/attack/sabotage such a government and reassert power, with not the slightest consideration about the lives that will be destroyed in the process and the suffering that it will produce. When you deny this reality, when you pretend like these things don't happen or don't matter, you are doing a disservice to the oppressed in their struggle for liberation and are in fact picking a side, the side of the powerful, who are the only ones who benefit from this ideological narrative. hosed up if true.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
Quorum posted:There are not currently democratic elections in Venezuela, because the regime knows it would lose and does not accept that outcome What is the point of having seperate legislative, executive, and judiciary branches of government in your opinion, and what is the proper process and the proper action to take when evidence of electoral fraud & irregularities emerges? Imagine how different things would be in a country like the USA if it had a functional judiciary that was willing to prosecute politicians and hold them accountable for subverting democracy
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
I agree which is why we should take the criticisms that the current PSVU attorney general Luisia Ortega has leveled seriously. Wouldn't want a judicial witch hunt against her for Reasons.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:41
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:What is the point of having seperate legislative, executive, and judiciary branches of government in your opinion, and what is the proper process and the proper action to take when evidence of electoral fraud & irregularities emerges? Bob, you have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously. There is no separation of powers in Venezuela. The judicial branch is 100% controlled by the executive right up to the Supreme Court. I don't have the time to explain all of that to you right now, but I think the onus is on you to become informed on what you're talking about. The attorney general is currently being impeached (and she was banned from leaving the country and had her assets frozen by a Supreme Court order yesterday) because she had the guts to criticize the regime for murdering protesters. I actually agree with you that the U.S. should not be involved in Venezuela (or anywhere else). We're on the same side. But you're clearly profoundly ignorant about the Venezuelan situation. Do yourself a favour and do some research.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:43
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:I don't really expect to change the minds of any of you folks who are being super vocal against me in this thread. All I hope is that once things eventually play out the way that I laid out above, and when most of you suddenly go completely silent about the situation, some people will question why they didn't see all this coming and hopefully will decide to think more critically and to try to stop this all from happening again in the future. This a pretty damning description of Maduro and especially yourself at the end there, but I'm not sure why it's supposed to make us think better of you or your dumb opinions. You do understand everyone in this thread is like super against the oligarchic wealthy slaveholding antidemocratic elite ruling class discrediting, attacking and sabotaging the government to reassert power without concern for the lives destroyed and this is, in fact, why they are opposed to Maduro? Because that is literally what he is doing?
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:Bob, you have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously. There is no separation of powers in Venezuela. The judicial branch is 100% controlled by the executive right up to the Supreme Court. I know this very well and what I'm talking about is the events that led to this situation. I assumed other people knew this already and I didn't have to explain it, just like I assumed when people say there are no elections in Venezuela they are in fact aware of the 2013 presidential election and the 2015 parliementary, and I don't need to point out that they happened.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 18:31 |
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:I know this very well and what I'm talking about is the events that led to this situation. I assumed other people knew this already and I didn't have to explain it, just like I assumed when people say there are no elections in Venezuela they are in fact aware of the 2013 presidential election and the 2015 parliementary, and I don't need to point out that they happened. You seem to have a real problem understanding the concept of "that things have happened in the past does not mean they are happening now" You also know nothing very well at all.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2017 19:51
|
|