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Volmarias posted:The canonical rant is "PHP: A fractal of bad design". Jesus Christ it just keeps going 
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Jun 29, 2017 03:43
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Fellatio del Toro posted:Jesus Christ it just keeps going Yeeeaaah PHP is seriously and legitimately Just That Bad. Personally it's the singular programming language I will never, ever touch. I'd write Assembly before I'd write PHP.
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Jun 29, 2017 04:05
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Assembly at least has the excuse of a few video games made of it.
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Jun 29, 2017 04:13
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Pollyanna posted:Assembly at least has the excuse of a few video games made of it. The only thing that makes Assembly painful is how incredibly tedious it is. It's really consistent in how it behaves it just takes for freaking ever to do anything. PHP is just like...you write your code and hope for the best. Which never happens because you wrote your code in PHP.
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Jun 29, 2017 04:36
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Please stop.
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Jun 29, 2017 04:40
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SuddenExpire posted:PHP is a great language if you dare to use it properly Agreed. Use real modern PHP and a good framework, and its a great language for what's intended (server side programming) Most people who HATE PHP barely knows it and keep complaining about functions nobody even uses anymore It does have its design flaws, but I much rather write a REST API in PHP with a good framework than in java, python or C#. But then again, Ive been getting paid to write PHP for more than 10 years, so maybe Im biased, or maybe Im a terrible retarded programmer for not using a REAL language
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Jun 29, 2017 13:07
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Elias_Maluco posted:maybe Im a terrible retarded programmer for not using a REAL language Admitting you have a problem is the first step 
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Jun 29, 2017 13:32
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Elias_Maluco posted:Most people who HATE PHP barely knows it and keep complaining about functions nobody even uses anymore rarely used functions, like the esoteric "=="
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Jun 29, 2017 13:58
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Hard to believe that post is more than five years old now 
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Jun 29, 2017 14:10
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My issue with PHP other than it being a terrible language? I don't think any other server side language can just be as transparently mixed in with HTML as PHP can correct?
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Jun 29, 2017 14:17
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ratbert90 posted:My issue with PHP other than it being a terrible language? ColdFusion (yes it's still around and yes it's much worse than PHP), ASP.NET, Classic ASP... I'm sure there are others.
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Jun 29, 2017 14:19
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GutBomb posted:ColdFusion (yes it's still around and yes it's much worse than PHP), ASP.NET, Classic ASP... I'm sure there are others. ColdFusion is garbage as you said. ASP is Microsoft, which isn't so great for embedded Linux work. 
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Jun 29, 2017 14:20
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GutBomb posted:ColdFusion (yes it's still around and yes it's much worse than PHP), ASP.NET, Classic ASP... I'm sure there are others. But why? In what server-side development context is a client-side view your fundamental unit of composition?
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Jun 29, 2017 14:39
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"Hey group I know you're working on a few different things that we want done by the end of next week but here's something that we haven't even explored the possibility of making and may or may not be doable with your current architecture!!! No hard date to get it done but you have one month. Also here's a whole bunch of poo poo we want done in that time range too." Eat my entire dick, gently caress you.
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Jun 29, 2017 16:01
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Jun 29, 2017 16:04
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Elias_Maluco posted:Agreed. Use real modern PHP and a good framework, and its a great language for what's intended (server side programming) Talk about the horrible things PHP has managed to fix all you want, it's still one of the worst possible server side programming languages you can pick. Why bother when C#, Java, NodeJS, Ruby(barf) are all way better, free, and cross platform?
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Jun 29, 2017 16:31
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Skandranon posted:Talk about the horrible things PHP has managed to fix all you want, it's still one of the worst possible server side programming languages you can pick. Why bother when C#, Java, NodeJS, Ruby(barf) are all way better, free, and cross platform? It's probably a combination of really old code-bases and people using what they know.
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Jun 29, 2017 16:46
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I don't really get why Ruby/Rails has such a bad reputation around here. From what I've seen of discussion here, I'm supposed to avoid it, but I don't see a major difference between it and other MVC frameworks.
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Jun 29, 2017 16:51
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Dev goons - How hosed am I if my new job (essentially head of product) has a completely bespoke stack built in Groovy (Grails) and no real documentation and the developers are in an Eastern European country My initial thought is "pretty hosed"
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Jun 29, 2017 16:51
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Pollyanna posted:I don't really get why Ruby/Rails has such a bad reputation around here. From what I've seen of discussion here, I'm supposed to avoid it, but I don't see a major difference between it and other MVC frameworks. It's a dead platform. Very few new projects use it, meaning you're stuck doing maintenance work.
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Jun 29, 2017 16:59
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:It's a dead platform. Very few new projects use it, meaning you're stuck doing maintenance work. True. I don't see it being the new hotness at all. The idea that I'd only be doing maintenance work worries me a bit, but I'm also aware that I need to focus more on good mentorship and self-growth. I just don't wanna end up pidgeonholing myself into Ruby/Rails  The recruiter I spoke to yesterday implied that what I should do is continue to build and get experience in the tech I've used commercially, i.e. focus on getting good at Rails cause that's what companies wanna see. I'm not so sure that's where I wanna go, but I naturally distrust recruiters anyway.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:03
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Pollyanna posted:I don't really get why Ruby/Rails has such a bad reputation around here. From what I've seen of discussion here, I'm supposed to avoid it, but I don't see a major difference between it and other MVC frameworks. The technology isn't so bad (better than PHP!), but the culture around it is very insular. And it's strong point was always that it was free, which it no longer the case with NodeJS eating it on the free end and .NET Core/Java eating it on the enterprise end. Future is not great for Ruby, do not invest in it.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:19
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Pollyanna posted:I don't really get why Ruby/Rails has such a bad reputation around here. From what I've seen of discussion here, I'm supposed to avoid it, but I don't see a major difference between it and other MVC frameworks.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:31
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I still use Rails for plenty of new stuff. I try to stick to a policy of only using one new piece of technology per project, and there are plenty of more interesting components than just the backend application framework. I think there's a good amount of confirmation bias going on with people who say that Rails is "dead". Hacker News has moved on, sure, and there are plenty of hotter options. But remember that Rails is just one piece of an application. It's still a great option for building new things.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:34
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Right, and that was one of the reasons I wanted to move away from Rails work. The feedback I got yesterday implied that I was only able to claim skills for Rails because it and JS are the bulk of my commercial/resume-backed experience, as opposed to personal learning of Elixir (and Phoenix) and Clojure, so I was wondering how I move away from it if it's most of what I have proven myself to do. But I guess that I mostly do React now, so I might already be on my way.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:35
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Skandranon posted:Talk about the horrible things PHP has managed to fix all you want, it's still one of the worst possible server side programming languages you can pick. Why bother when C#, Java, NodeJS, Ruby(barf) are all way better, free, and cross platform? Ruby gets a "(barf)" but not Node.js? JavaScript isn't even designed to be running server-side, and is covered in stupid language warts. Pollyanna posted:The recruiter I spoke to yesterday implied that what I should do is continue to build and get experience in the tech I've used commercially, i.e. focus on getting good at Rails cause that's what companies wanna see. I'm not so sure that's where I wanna go, but I naturally distrust recruiters anyway. Being good at something is important. Best is if you're good at something highly in-demand. Worst is if you're inexperienced at 200 different things. Being good at something unpopular is in the middle. A good PHP developer gets plenty of jobs even if everyone makes fun of PHP (and they can use those jobs to creep into new technologies). Someone who knows how to do "hello world" in Go, Rust, Elixir, and Julia but can't design a complete application in any of them is not going anywhere.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:56
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Mniot posted:Ruby gets a "(barf)" but not Node.js? JavaScript isn't even designed to be running server-side, and is covered in stupid language warts. Well, I forgive Node for a lot of that because I use JavaScript a lot these days. However, if something was really important, I would not use it over C#. Maybe Java.
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Jun 29, 2017 18:13
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Clamps McGraw posted:Dev goons - How hosed am I if my new job (essentially head of product) has a completely bespoke stack built in Groovy (Grails) and no real documentation and the developers are in an Eastern European country it depends. if they listen to you you'll probably be fine. no documentation is a bad signal but it's pretty typical in the industry
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Jun 29, 2017 23:28
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Pollyanna posted:The feedback I got yesterday implied that I was only able to claim skills for Rails because it and JS are the bulk of my commercial/resume-backed experience, as opposed to personal learning of Elixir (and Phoenix) and Clojure. By completely ignoring your recruiter's implication.
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Jun 29, 2017 23:59
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geeves posted:By completely ignoring your recruiter's I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
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Jun 30, 2017 00:23
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Mniot posted:Ruby gets a "(barf)" but not Node.js? JavaScript isn't even designed to be running server-side, and is covered in stupid language warts. When I first heard about Node my immediate response was a horrified "WHAT?!? Why? Why would anybody want that?" I guess there's something to be said about the front end and back end being in the same language but...ugh. I only use JavaScript if I have to. It's tolerable for simple front end stuff but I by no means would ever want to build an actual application in it. PHP is terrible but it still runs like half of the internet. That's probably partly inertia; it came out in 1995. Personally I just wish that C# was more popular. I really like C# but I do Java for a living right now.
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Jun 30, 2017 01:12
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Personally I just wish that C# was more popular. I really like C# but I do Java for a living right now. You will hate it once you see the ecosystem around it. The package manager is a joke, the build system is completely brain dead, the libraries (as few as they are) are ... written by toddlers or ask a bazillion $ if they got a grown-up in there somewhere and Microsoft itself is doing their best to destroy the will to live of any developer crazy enough to try out their platform (they're clearly winning this game against Oracle, not that Oracle is not trying too). Compared to Java, the .NET platform is a mess, to put it lightly. C# as a language ... yes, is fine. The rest isn't.
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Jun 30, 2017 01:51
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PHP type comparison tables
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Jun 30, 2017 01:56
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Volguus posted:You will hate it once you see the ecosystem around it. The package manager is a joke, the build system is completely brain dead, the libraries (as few as they are) are ... written by toddlers or ask a bazillion $ if they got a grown-up in there somewhere and Microsoft itself is doing their best to destroy the will to live of any developer crazy enough to try out their platform (they're clearly winning this game against Oracle, not that Oracle is not trying too). Yeah as much as I prefer C# to Java as a language I have to admit the 80 trillion free and useful Java libraries are an incredible perk.
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Jun 30, 2017 02:38
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Rails is cool and good, and I use it to contribute big features to a growing product. I'm nowhere near maintenance mode. I dunno where the hate comes from. Performance doesn't seem like an issue, but it may be the number of transactions im dealing with. Other than that, it's one of the best languages and platforms ive used. The ecosystem around it is great too, community seems mature and the style convention's make it really easy to work in.
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Jun 30, 2017 02:48
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I find Rails tends to encourage a monolithic architecture, which makes for an app that's a motherfucker to break apart when it becomes complex, which you will eventually need to if it keeps growing. Its relatively poor performance also means that you'll sooner reach the threshold where microservices start to look really appealing. Slow monoliths are a perfect fit for prototypes, however, and getting something easy to understand up and running very quickly is what Rails excels at for many other reasons as well.
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Jun 30, 2017 02:55
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Pollyanna posted:I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'm saying that the recruiter implying that only being able to claim knowledge you gain in a work setting being valuable is laughable. So you have to come correct. If you go home at night and tinker and write (for example) a wordpress competitor with Elixir/Phoenix and Clojure that's really solid, that's all in your favor. You've done enough with them that you can speak intelligently about them. I would't hesitate for a second to list a side project on my resume with something that I wanted to do or enjoyed using. Working with Rails/Ruby and JS in an enterprise setting gives you the experience for how to develop in an enterprise setting with a team. Language starts to become arbitrary. In the end, either you know something or you don't. It's all part of the game.
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Jun 30, 2017 05:13
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It's been a long day and I need to take a minute to vent. For the past year or so we've been moving away from Postgres to Solr, a change which I was rather opposed to. It has turned out... okay. More and more, though, our application feels like it's built upon twigs. We've removed what I think was a good, solid foundation made of concrete, with solid iron IO pipes and instead taped on this popsicle stick Solr thing which is connected with leaky plastic tubes. Fortunately for me, I can mostly ignore the horrifying thing that our application has become and I can focus on more interesting things like research. However, as I've been the only backend dev on staff the past couple of weeks, I've been unable to avoid the unpleasant reality. I've spent three solid days trying to figure out why this HTTP call to Solr's ELB is failing. OPS insists that the nodes are fine and the ELB is performing as expected. The calls fail intermittently. Same code. Same call. Intermittent failure. Fire ten of the same request, get back 2 replies and 8 400-errors. They say they don't see the timeouts. If I switch things up and point them at a node directly instead of the load balancer, all the requests magically work. Between that and the intermittent nature of the failure, it seemed pretty compelling evidence that there was something FUBAR'd with the load balancer. Again, though, OPS is very insistent it's fine and the problem is in our application. I can suck it up, bite my tongue, and try to find someone that will work with me. Today, though, all the Solr cloud instances went down. Again. In all our applications. I'm out of ideas on how to approach this. I have the result traced to a single line in our code: where we make the POST request. It happens with CURL, too, but they say the problem is in our app.  I'm dancing the line between wrathfully angry and completely out of energy.
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Jun 30, 2017 06:34
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unfortunately it's gone from a technical problem to a social problem. if a correctly formatted post done with curl reproduces the failure, then obviously the issue is not in your code - so all you can do is figure out how best to convince people of this. having siloed ops divisions sucks.. is it a situation where you can tell your manager "my work is blocked by these people, could you organise a meeting for us to communicate and resolve it"?
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Jun 30, 2017 07:20
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Jo posted:
You sound burned out, tread carefully. For your health.
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Jun 30, 2017 07:22
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