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What is the best flav... you all know what this question is: This poll is closed. |
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| Labour |
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907 | 49.92% |
| Theresa May Team (Conservative) |
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48 | 2.64% |
| Liberal Democrats |
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31 | 1.71% |
| UKIP |
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13 | 0.72% |
| Plaid Cymru |
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25 | 1.38% |
| Green |
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22 | 1.21% |
| Scottish Socialist Party |
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12 | 0.66% |
| Scottish Conservative Party |
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1 | 0.06% |
| Scottish National Party |
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59 | 3.25% |
| Some Kind of Irish Unionist |
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4 | 0.22% |
| Alliance / Irish Nonsectarian |
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3 | 0.17% |
| Some Kind of Irish Nationalist |
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36 | 1.98% |
| Misc. Far Left Trots |
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35 | 1.93% |
| Misc. Far Right Fash |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Monster Raving Loony |
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49 | 2.70% |
| Space Navies Party |
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39 | 2.15% |
| Independent / Single Issue |
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2 | 0.11% |
| Can't Vote |
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188 | 10.35% |
| Won't Vote |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Spoiled Ballot |
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15 | 0.83% |
| Pissflaps |
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312 | 17.17% |
| Total: | 1817 votes | ||
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Basically the big deal here is that people can only campaign on so many issues at once, and for a lot of people in Labour campaigning for a socialist Britain is more important than staying in the EU. If you want to campaign for hard Remain power to you, but you have to square that with the fact that life was poo poo for a lot of people even with us being in the EU and so your message probably isn't going to appeal to people other than those who are happy with the status quo. Which is not exactly a lot of people right now.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:22
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Borrovan posted:Okay, don't waste my time by claiming that you do then. What do you think would be the effect of telling 52% of the electorate that you don't respect them? I've claimed no such thing. I expect some would be angry because they want to vote labour and have a hard Brexit. More would be happy because they want to vote labour and have a soft Brexit.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:25
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Regarde Aduck posted:We're not lemmings. We've moved on. We've done the despair and the anger. If only someone were capable of bargaining.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:25
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Be honest tho flaps if Corbyn was pushing hard-remain you would be posting here daily on the need to leave the single market.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:26
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Borrovan posted:No, that's called "doing the barest minimum to technically comply with the result". Respecting the result includes noting that the main concerns that leave-voters had were free movement and sovereignty. Keeping free movement and surrendering legislative power is the opposite of this. here's the thing:
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Jun 30, 2017 11:27
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Tesseraction posted:Be honest tho flaps if Corbyn was pushing hard-remain you would be posting here daily on the need to leave the single market. Unlike some here I don't let personality preferences dictate my political opinions.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:30
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Pissflaps posted:Unlike some here I don't let personality preferences dictate my political opinions. Two years of whining about Corbyn only to be proven wrong suggests otherwise.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:33
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Pissflaps posted:I've claimed no such thing. You literally just said that your approach is respecting the referendum, and I went to the effort of writing a post to rebut it. Also I was quite obviously talking about leave voters, who probably don't want to vote Labour and have a soft brexit. I kinda hoped you'd do the math and realise that handing over a blank cheque to any far right nationalists who want to capitalise on a colossal and unambiguous gently caress you to the majority of the electorate might be a bad idea, but eh, gently caress it, I'm out.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:33
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Pissflaps posted:Unlike some here I don't let personality preferences dictate my political opinions. In light of recent events, maybe you should reconsider your methodology.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:36
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Borrovan posted:You literally just said that your approach is respecting the referendum, and I went to the effort of writing a post to rebut it. Also I was quite obviously talking about leave voters, who probably don't want to vote Labour and have a soft brexit. I kinda hoped you'd do the math and realise that handing over a blank cheque to any far right nationalists who want to capitalise on a colossal and unambiguous gently caress you to the majority of the electorate might be a bad idea, but eh, gently caress it, I'm out. No, you mentioned respecting the result. I responded explaining that the result could be respected while remaining in the single market. Remaining in it would be taken as a 'gently caress you' by many Leave voters, and as a blessed relied by many more. That I don't personally respect the referendum or the result makes no difference to this.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:37
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Borrovan posted:You literally just said that your approach is respecting the referendum, and I went to the effort of writing a post to rebut it. Also I was quite obviously talking about leave voters, who probably don't want to vote Labour and have a soft brexit. I kinda hoped you'd do the math and realise that handing over a blank cheque to any far right nationalists who want to capitalise on a colossal and unambiguous gently caress you to the majority of the electorate might be a bad idea, but eh, gently caress it, I'm out. It's not the majority of the electorate. It's the majority of the electorate who expressed a preference and without full possession of the facts. We're drifting away from that. We're already in the position where a majority who express a preference favour Remain, and most Remain voters "support" Brexit only in the sense of supporting democracy.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:44
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I'm not sure people quite get that people who voted leave didn't do it because of the single market. They did it because they wanted more border controls and less EU laws Superseding our own. It does not matter if they were right, wrong, racist or confused to think this, but the fact is that if the government got it's thumb out of it's arse and actually explained what the single market is in non-patronising terms that everyone can understand then everyone would be for it. This is the problem with the remain campaign and the Tories in general. They think the general public is stupid, so withhold information that people could use to make up their own minds, and simply go "DO WHAT WE TELL YOU TO DO WE KNOW BEST" and then wonder why people tell them to gently caress off with a vote the other way.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:47
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Has Corbyn come out against putting the negotiated deal to a referendum or plebiscite?
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Jun 30, 2017 11:47
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learnincurve posted:I'm not sure people quite get that people who voted leave didn't do it because of the single market. People are attempting to justify Labour's recent hard Brexit stance, not understand the motives or desires of Leave voters.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:49
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Has Corbyn come out against putting the negotiated deal to a referendum or plebiscite? I'm not sure how this works. Is it a vote on the terms of Brexit, or a new EU/Uk trade deal? The eu says the first comes before the latter, but we couldn't delay Brexit beyond two years if we were waiting on the result of trade deal talks. It only seems to work if they both conclude at the same time, which seems unlikely. Pissflaps fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Jun 30, 2017 |
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Jun 30, 2017 11:51
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Welcome back Pissflaps I guess. Brexit is dumb as poo poo but thumb people don't change their minds by being told that, they do so by experience. Also, sociologically it was loving obvious Brexit was going to happen from the early 90's onwards.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:52
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Pissflaps posted:I'm not sure how this works. Is it a vote on the terms of Brexit, or a new EU/Uk trade deal? The eu says the first comes before the latter, but we couldn't delay Brexit beyond two years if the were waiting on the result of trade deal talks. It would have to be on the terms of Brexit surely? There wouldn't be a new EU/UK trade deal if you were going to retain membership of the customs union. It also just seems saner not to conduct referenda on trade deals, but then Brexit itself was a bad idea.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:54
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People were using Switzerland and Norway as examples for how you can be well off outside of the EU during the campaign. Although now that I think about it, there was one guy insisting that Switzerland's wealth came from not having any immigrants. I wanted to shake him.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:55
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It would have to be on the terms of Brexit surely? There wouldn't be a new EU/UK trade deal if you were going to retain membership of the customs union. But retaining membership of the customs union seems unlikely at this point.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:56
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Pissflaps posted:But retaining membership of the customs union seems unlikely at this point. Isn't it Labour policy?
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Jun 30, 2017 11:57
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Isn't it Labour policy? Nope.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:58
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Coohoolin posted:Although now that I think about it, there was one guy insisting that Switzerland's wealth came from not having any immigrants. I wanted to shake him. That and providing surreptitious financial services for the shits of the world.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:59
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Well as Mark Blyth said, only Switzerland can be Switzerland, doesn't work if everyone tries to do it...
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Jun 30, 2017 12:02
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Pissflaps posted:Nope. Well if someone can explain what the gently caress having 'the exact same benefits of the customs union' means when it doesn't involve membership in the customs union I'll assume it's vaguely Labour policy to stay in, because to me that doesn't mean much and seems to be written explicitly to placate both sides.
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Jun 30, 2017 12:04
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Isn't it Labour policy? Pissflaps posted:Nope. http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/manifesto2017/brexit Ctrl+F "Customs Union"
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Jun 30, 2017 12:06
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Well if someone can explain what the gently caress having 'the exact same benefits of the customs union' means when it doesn't involve membership in the customs union I'll assume it's vaguely Labour policy to stay in, because to me that doesn't mean much. Labour just whipped an abstention on a vote for remaining in the single market. It's not policy to remain in the customs union.
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Jun 30, 2017 12:06
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It's basically safe to assume that when pissflaps says it's not Labour policy, what he means is that Labour hasn't proudly declared it'd going to have its cake and eat it too, so therefore their policy is hard leave, exiting even the WTO and also mandatory union jacks.
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Jun 30, 2017 12:07
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Pissflaps posted:Labour just three line whipped an abstention on a vote for remaining in the single market. It's not policy to remain in the customs unions. I don't see how one follows from the other.
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Jun 30, 2017 12:08
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Tesseraction posted:http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/manifesto2017/brexit He's just posted what the manifesto says.
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Jun 30, 2017 12:08
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Pissflaps posted:Nope. Labour policy is not to stay in, or to leave, the single market or the customs union. Labour's policy is to pursue tariff free access to the single market and an end to free movement of persons. e: lol, rightly beaten, but god drat Brexit talk is dull, there must be a lot of remain voters out there who'd get out this minute if it just meant we could stop loving going on about it Borrovan fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Jun 30, 2017 |
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Jun 30, 2017 12:09
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Uh, I was going to post this last night and then fell asleep, sorry it's completely out of context and will probably not be read by the person it's aimed at Hi Lord_Adonis, I can't help noticing everyone's poking fun at your posting style but nobody's giving you any concrete suggestions for improving it. Here are some tips that will instantly make you sound more human and relatable if that appeals to you. 1) Get rid of superfluous "that"s. Most people throw these in occasionally but Jesus your writing is absolutely turgid with them. Lord_Adonis posted:I think 2) Forum posts are highly informal writing. It's fine and good to use contractions where appropriate. Lord_Adonis posted:I think we might be talking past one another. It seems to me your example demonstrates people can believe 3) Cut down on hedging and meaningless phrases. It makes your writing stodgy and indigestible. Lord_Adonis posted:I think we 4) Stop using long words and phrases when short ones will do. Lord_Adonis posted:I think we're talking past one another. Your example Old Lord_Adonis:  I think that we might be talking past one another. It seems to me that your example demonstrates that people can believe that they are helping, when they in fact are doing the opposite, rather than a situation where people are constrained in their ability to help by a lack of resources. Let me put it another way: How does one give something that one does not have in the way of help?New improved Lord_Adonis:  I think we're talking past one another. Your example shows people can believe they're helping when they're not, rather than people being constrained in their ability to help by a lack of resources. How do you give something you don't have in the way of help?Pissflaps:  How do you give something you don't have?
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Jun 30, 2017 12:10
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Tesseraction posted:It's basically safe to assume that when pissflaps says it's not Labour policy, what he means is that Labour hasn't proudly declared it'd going to have its cake and eat it too, so therefore their policy is hard leave, exiting even the WTO and also mandatory union jacks.
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Jun 30, 2017 12:10
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Whats the 'drawbacks' to staying the EU Custom union as far as leavers are concerned? Isn't it just tariff free/paperwork free trade within the EU area + turkey?
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Jun 30, 2017 12:11
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Midnight- posted:Whats the 'drawbacks' to staying the EU Custom union as far as leavers are concerned? Can't gently caress yourselves over with free trade deals, which is obviously bad somehow ???
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Jun 30, 2017 12:11
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Guavanaut posted:A second van covered in flags has just crashed into the World Trade Organization. Big Nige been out on the lash again. Probably drinking continental beers, too.
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Jun 30, 2017 12:11
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I don't see how one follows from the other. Is it possible or desirable to have customs union membership without single market membership or vice versa?
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Jun 30, 2017 12:12
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Pissflaps posted:Is it possible or desirable to have customs union membership without single market membership or vice versa? I don't know if it's desirable, but Turkey does it. I'd imagine not having to negotiate your own trade deals and relying on the collective bargaining of the entire EU would be of benefit.
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Jun 30, 2017 12:14
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Midnight- posted:Whats the 'drawbacks' to staying the EU Custom union as far as leavers are concerned? I think the Express argument is something to do with lightbulbs. Also that we'll have to follow EU regs if we want to sell to them. Which would be the case anyway.
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Jun 30, 2017 12:14
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Guavanaut posted:Depends on the type of leaver. An internationalist might say that it binds us in terms of deals with non-European and emerging markets. So if we stay in the custom union, that stops us from making our own trade deals with other, non-eu, countries?
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Jun 30, 2017 12:16
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Midnight- posted:So if we stay in the custom union, that stops us from making our own trade deals with other, non-eu, countries? Yes.
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Jun 30, 2017 12:21
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