Germany Thread: KEIN FASCHISMUS LEUDE BIDDE

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Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Decius posted:

Ehe f�r Alle had a majority of 75 and 83 % in the last surveys I've seen. The people getting their knickers in a twist are a small minority of Ewiggestriger.

I think the CDU/Merkel are in the interesting situation that there is no gain for them in the issue; too many of their voters are in favour, or at least against being against it (get what I mean? Basically, they wouldn't do a thing to make life better for gay people, but they'd also be disturbed by somebody actively making life worse for them.). But the AfD might be in a situation where they can solidify their base on this - might; if I'm reading the stats right, even AfD voters are majority in favor.

dogboy posted:

You don't have to be on the far-right spectrum to be somewhat/massively annoyed by the Genderwahnsinn. Especially what they propose to do to the language.

IMHO more damaging to feminism than helping it progress.

Also: Ehe f�r alle

I agree a few feminists are dumb and have dumb ideas, and a few feminist proposals are bad. (Just consider the ludicrous alternative: anything any feminist ever did is perfectly good!) That's, I believe, usually about as relevant as Hitler reportedly being nice to animals, ie., not.
But a lot of the time when somebody uses the word "Genderwahnsinn", they're not making a very measured argument against certain particularly dumb forms of feminism, but a bad reactionary argument.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:20

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# ? May 26, 2024 18:02

Bistromatic: Oct 3, 2004; And turn the inner eye
To see its path...

dogboy posted:

Is this important for you? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschlechtergerechte_Sprache

If yes: why?

Bonus points: Make a classic poem of your choice gender neutral and then recite it and try to keep a straight face.

Halts maul du Penner.

It's important to me because men should not be the default with women being treated as the different ones in everydays language. It's just one aspect of gender equality but every single one is important. Not even a little discrimination is okay.

I'd very much like to have a linguistic option like the neutral they in english or the swedish hen. Sadly all attempts i've seen in german seem to be unpopular and awkward.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:21

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Bistromatic posted:

unpopular and awkward

Sounds pretty German.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:22

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Bistromatic posted:

Halts maul du Penner.

It's important to me because men should not be the default with women being treated as the different ones in everydays language. It's just one aspect of gender equality but every single one is important. Not even a little discrimination is okay.

I'd very much like to have a linguistic option like the neutral they in english or the swedish hen. Sadly all attempts i've seen in german seem to be unpopular and awkward.

Yeah I very much like the singular-they in English, and the swedish Hen. I wish we had something like this. I don't think we do, and as long as we don't, while I don't disagree with anyone using the "awkward" forms, my personal preference is to 1. stick with the non-awkward forms we have, 2. try to avoid speaking German :v:

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:23

Lunar Suite: Jun 5, 2011; If you love a flower which happens to be on a star, it is sweet at night to gaze at the sky. All the stars are a riot of flowers.

Perestroika posted:

https://twitter.com/FraukePetry/sta...-alle-bundestag
"It's terrible that the established parties use their influence to constantly overrule the will of the people. But in this case they totally should have!"

Frau Petry wird auf Twitter aber gerade �belst bedient.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:23

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

dogboy posted:

Is this important for you? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschlechtergerechte_Sprache

If yes: why?

Bonus points: Make a classic poem of your choice gender neutral and then recite it and try to keep a straight face.

wow that's a new and interesting opinion. why don't you make it gender neutral and shove it up your butt

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:24

Goa Tse-tung: Feb 11, 2008; ;3; Yams Fan

Bistromatic posted:

Halts maul du Penner.

echt ma

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:34

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:

The good thing about the AfD is that they are way too incompetent and disorganized to do any verfassungsklags

It's more that they literally are not allowed to do am "abstrakte Normenkontrollantrag" because they would either need to be the Bundesregierung, 1/4 of the Bundestag or a Landesregierung.

The only other way to challenge the law before the Verfassungsgericht would be if they can demonstrate that they themselves are damaged by it, which is rather difficult.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:38

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

I don't think we need to insult anyone for having political opinions we disagree with.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:45

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Goa Tse-tung posted:

echt ma

Stammtischparolen, -weisheiten und -analysen don't work outside Stammtisch, what a surprise

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:48

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Will polygamy (and polyandry) become a progressive issue now? Cause I've been seeing my genderbending friends bring that up on facebook now, and I'm not really looking forward to the pink-black-glass alliance of cultural far-left, ultraconservative muslims and Silicon Valley hipsters, nor to the "see? this is what you get when you're nice to gays!" response from the hard right.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:50

Randler: Jan 3, 2013; ACER ET VEHEMENS BONAVIS

Cingulate posted:

I don't think we need to insult anyone for having political opinions we disagree with.

People tend to take silence as consent. So it is important to regularly voice disapproval, like e.g. telling botany to gently caress off to North Korea if he loves communist dictatorships so much and gets aniexty from laws protecting liberals as well.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:51

Wengy: Feb 6, 2008

I'm not a linguist because lol, but even bigger lol if you don't believe that the way we use language shapes the way we actually think, hence geschlechtergerechte Sprache isn't a Schikane but makes total sense. See here: http://www.zeit.de/zeit-wissen/2012/06/Sprache-Worte-Wahrnehmung/komplettansicht

Also, congratulations on being able to gay marry the Atomausstieg, we're way behind you (heh), but might yet make it to the 21st century at some point over the coming years.

Wengy fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Jun 30, 2017

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:55

Randler: Jan 3, 2013; ACER ET VEHEMENS BONAVIS

Wengy posted:

I'm not a linguist because lol, but even bigger lol if you don't believe that the way use language shapes the way we actually think, hence geschlechtergerechte Sprache isn't a Schikane but makes total sense. See here: http://www.zeit.de/zeit-wissen/2012/06/Sprache-Worte-Wahrnehmung/komplettansicht

Also, congratulations on being able to gay marry the Atomausstieg, we're way behind you (heh), but might yet make it to the 21st century at some point over the coming years.

So you're saying reddit was right about feminists trying to secretly brainwash men by changing the language? :v:

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:57

Wengy: Feb 6, 2008

Randler posted:

So you're saying reddit was right about feminists trying to secretly brainwash men by changing the language?

It's for our own good, Freund :colbert:

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:58

Lunar Suite: Jun 5, 2011; If you love a flower which happens to be on a star, it is sweet at night to gaze at the sky. All the stars are a riot of flowers.

Cingulate posted:

Will polygamy (and polyandry) become a progressive issue now? Cause I've been seeing my genderbending friends bring that up on facebook now, and I'm not really looking forward to the pink-black-glass alliance of cultural far-left, ultraconservative muslims and Silicon Valley hipsters, nor to the "see? this is what you get when you're nice to gays!" response from the hard right.

are you seriously citing the slippery slope argument
no, they won't. The state has no interest in legislating relationships between more than two people because rather striking gender specific language from existing laws it would require coming up with regulations for an entirely new dimension of relationship.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 12:59

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

Hambilderberglar posted:

Does anyone really say "abendl�ndischen Kultur" irl outside of the AfD? It's probably perfectly fine German but it sounds incredibly weird and offputting.

It's perfectly fine in a casual conversation if the words are followed by wet fart noises, other than that, no.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 13:02

Smirr: Jun 28, 2012

Wengy posted:

I'm not a linguist because lol

ouch

# ? Jun 30, 2017 13:07

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Lunar Suite posted:

are you seriously citing the slippery slope argument
no, they won't. The state has no interest in legislating relationships between more than two people because rather striking gender specific language from existing laws it would require coming up with regulations for an entirely new dimension of relationship.

I need some legal advice for a friend: if primates got legal status as incompetent persons, like some organizations are demanding, would it be theoretically legal to marry them? I mean, I know it's practically not possible cause you can't marry an incompetent person, but what about the theoretical aspect of it?

It would have been really funny if it was legally possible to marry a chimpanzee but totally unconstitutional for two gay people to do so.

Again, this is asking for a FRIEND. Not for me.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 13:14

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

Randler posted:

People tend to take silence as consent. So it is important to regularly voice disapproval, like e.g. telling botany to gently caress off to North Korea if he loves communist dictatorships so much and gets aniexty from laws protecting liberals as well.

okay seriously what is it with you thinking i am in favor of dictatorships

# ? Jun 30, 2017 13:18

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Lunar Suite posted:

are you seriously citing the slippery slope argument

1. I'm reporting what I just saw my friends do, 2. the issue here is that removing the "man and woman" part in favour of "two consenting adults" or whatever does indeed raise the question of removing the "two" part too. I mean, I don't actually have a good moral argument against it. Why, morally speaking, shouldn't 3 women marry each other? "The laws would be complicated!" ... Ok.
But more generally, I have a suspicion you want to put me into some anti-marriage equality, homophobic corner here, and that would be obviously idiotic.

Lunar Suite posted:

no, they won't. The state has no interest in legislating relationships between more than two people because rather striking gender specific language from existing laws it would require coming up with regulations for an entirely new dimension of relationship.

I don't see how "the state has no interest" would argue against it becoming an issue for groups who do not think too much of the state in the first place.

Wengy posted:

I'm not a linguist because lol, but even bigger lol if you don't believe that the way we use language shapes the way we actually think

Being a linguist, I have to report that this claim is hotly contested amongst linguists; IIRC one guy was banned from the linguistics thread for yelling too much at those linguists who think the idea that language shapes thought is not entirely ridiculous (i.e., me).
What is I think rather well established is that gendered pronouns evoke the relevant gender, even if they're used in the default sense.

Randler posted:

People tend to take silence as consent. So it is important to regularly voice disapproval

Yes, but you can do that in a respectful and sachliche manner.

Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:

I need some legal advice for a friend: if primates got legal status as incompetent persons, like some organizations are demanding, would it be theoretically legal to marry them? I mean, I know it's practically not possible cause you can't marry an incompetent person, but what about the theoretical aspect of it?

It would have been really funny if it was legally possible to marry a chimpanzee but totally unconstitutional for two gay people to do so.

Again, this is asking for a FRIEND. Not for me.

... am I inferring correctly your gay friends want to add a chimpanzee to their marriage?
Now that ain't right.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 13:22

System Metternich: Feb 28, 2010; But what did he mean by that?

I don't want to marry a chimpanzee

Getting married by a chimpanzee Standesbeamter however would be totally loving rad

# ? Jun 30, 2017 13:34

Lunar Suite: Jun 5, 2011; If you love a flower which happens to be on a star, it is sweet at night to gaze at the sky. All the stars are a riot of flowers.

Cingulate posted:

But more generally, I have a suspicion you want to put me into some anti-marriage equality, homophobic corner here, and that would be obviously idiotic.

That was not my intention. The argument is one of the top 10 arguments used against marriage equality, so repeating it in the current conversational context did indeed make me associate you with the people who usually espouse it. I apologise if that association is erroneous.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 13:39

Wengy: Feb 6, 2008

Smirr posted:

ouch

hehehehehe

dogboy posted:

Being a linguist, I have to report that this claim is hotly contested amongst linguists; IIRC one guy was banned from the linguistics thread for yelling too much at those linguists who think the idea that language shapes thought is not entirely ridiculous (i.e., me).
What is I think rather well established is that gendered pronouns evoke the relevant gender, even if they're used in the default sense.

Right, and as the article I quoted shows, 'gendered' words will also automatically evoke the relevant gender (the example with the cartoon voices in which speakers of German tended to want to give a fork a female voice, because "die Gabel") - so it matters if you only address "Professoren" or "Studenten", for example, and the mitgemeinte Frauen aren't automatically mitgedacht. That alone is reason enough to cultivate at least some degree of gender-sensitivity in one's use of language.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 13:40

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

https://twitter.com/HeikoMaas/status/880705567148445697

I hope no one is considering to vote for this person and/or his party.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 13:45

Smirr: Jun 28, 2012

gently caress ME that's cringey

# ? Jun 30, 2017 13:54

Lunar Suite: Jun 5, 2011; If you love a flower which happens to be on a star, it is sweet at night to gaze at the sky. All the stars are a riot of flowers.

I dare not watch. What's he doing?

# ? Jun 30, 2017 13:55

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Lunar Suite posted:

I dare not watch. What's he doing?

I'm sorry but words are not able to describe that gif

# ? Jun 30, 2017 13:57

Sereri: Sep 30, 2008; awwwrigami

Lunar Suite posted:

I dare not watch. What's he doing?

# ? Jun 30, 2017 14:00

Hambilderberglar: Dec 2, 2004

JaucheCharly posted:

It's perfectly fine in a casual conversation if the words are followed by wet fart noises, other than that, no.

Thank god. We have some PEGIDA clowns here and I was worried for a hot second it was becoming popular.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 14:06

Wengy: Feb 6, 2008

What the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

# ? Jun 30, 2017 14:11

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

Lunar Suite posted:

I dare not watch. What's he doing?

but for gay marriage

# ? Jun 30, 2017 14:17

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

System Metternich posted:

Getting married by a chimpanzee Standesbeamter however would be totally loving rad

Überqualifiziert für die Beamtenlaufbahn *monkey sigh*

# ? Jun 30, 2017 14:50

Cingulate: Oct 23, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Lunar Suite posted:

That was not my intention. The argument is one of the top 10 arguments used against marriage equality, so repeating it in the current conversational context did indeed make me associate you with the people who usually espouse it. I apologise if that association is erroneous.

No problem.
I know slippery slope arguments, but as I said, in this case, it was brought up by a I think non-binary friend of mine (like, hormones-and-legal-name-change non-binary), asking when it would be time for the poly people to get theirs. And I think it's hard to claim there's no line here.
I don't even know what my opinion on this is. Is poly good or bad? I don't know. I guess we shouldn't hate, but should we support? I have no idea.

GaussianCopula posted:

https://twitter.com/HeikoMaas/status/880705567148445697

I hope no one is considering to vote for this person and/or his party.

Cringey != bad. The "HAY GUIZE" tone deafness is embarrassing, but we shouldn't vote for these people cause they have taste anyways, but cause they support good causes.

Not that I'd want to convince anyone to lend Heiko Maas their support, just in general.

# ? Jun 30, 2017 14:51