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HonorableTB posted:As a native Southerner, I often have found myself in a conflicted state over the past few years. I'm huge into history, especially military history, and growing up in a small rural Georgian town next to the border of Alabama means that from the time I was born until the day I moved to Seattle (so 24 years or so), I was inundated with pro-Confederate thought, culture, history, and all that. What people don't seem to understand is that in the south, especially super rural areas, this poo poo is so deeply ingrained that it has come to represent southerners as a cultural and historical identity across the region. People are so used to seeing the Confederate battle flag literally everywhere (flying from buildings, porches, trucks, bumper stickers, shirts, literally anything you could think of) that to most people in the south, it no longer represents the Confederacy itself, or slavery, or "states rights", or really anything beyond "this is a southern symbol, it symbolizes who we are and our country/rural/southern lifestyle, down home cookin', huntin', shootin', sweet tea and cornbread" and has become, itself, an idea of what our entire region is, was, and will be. Well, you're aware of your problem, and you know that one side of it is right. Increased exposure to those directly on the receiving end of the damages of "southern identity" might help you tip the scales. 
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Jul 3, 2017 21:19
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Racism isn't unique or special culture. It's racism. I'm too black to not see the stars and bars for anything other than "I hate niggers and want to own them."
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Jul 3, 2017 21:20
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What if we put up monuments honoring Confederate soldiers, but they only celebrate the ones who shot the wicked traitor Stonewall Jackson.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:20
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Sure, you took the time to explain why cultural symbols can be pernicious and carry emotional weight far beyond what they should, but I'm going to reply by telling you to go gently caress yourself because I don't understand your perspective and don't want to try. This makes me better than you.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:20
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The UK is starting to get a similar movement in terms of monuments to imperialists (I'm not using the word "imperialists" to criticize capitalism here; I mean actual literal imperialists) https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/28/cecil-rhodes-statue-will-not-be-removed--oxford-university Unlike the US South, the UK tends not to celebrate the Empire, but is in complete denial about its existence or how bad it was. We are uncomfortable with it, so it's basically vanished from history. We don't learn about it in schools.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:21
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I don't understand.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:21
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BarbarianElephant posted:Unlike the US South, the UK tends not to celebrate the Empire Really now? Did they remove the memorials to battles won in the name of the Empire? Did they return the Elgin Marbles and the other prizes from the empire? Did they rename the Rhodes scholars yet?
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Jul 3, 2017 21:23
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Invalid Validation posted:Who makes political cartoons? Do they make money at all? People with artistic skills. They sell them to newspapers. I doubt it pulls much scratch, they definitely need to be doing OTHER things to not die.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:23
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Doctor Butts posted:I don't understand. It's currently thirty-something. He wants it to be
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Jul 3, 2017 21:24
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Doctor Butts posted:I don't understand. Current top tax bracket is taxed at 39 point something percent, meaning Bannon wants to increase taxes on the rich.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:25
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:There aren't any German memorials at Stalingrad. Why should there be Confederate memorials at Gettysburg? I was in Nha Trang, Vietnam, where they have a memorial to the war casualties. Some idiot goddamn American had the temerity to ask sarcastically of the tour guide where the memorial was for the American dead. Ugh.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:25
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Trabisnikof posted:Really now? Did they remove the memorials to battles won in the name of the Empire? Did they return the Elgin Marbles and the other prizes from the empire? Don't jump down my throat assuming I was being jingoistic. I was criticizing the lack of awareness of what we did wrong - not celebrating it! The current way of dealing with it is to ignore it, head in the sand. I'm not saying that is *better* Mr Reading Comprehension - just a different sort of wrong.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:26
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AceOfFlames posted:Current top tax bracket is taxed at 39 point something percent, meaning Bannon wants to increase taxes on the rich. .......why? Not as in why increase taxes on the rich, but why is Bannon advocating for it?
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Jul 3, 2017 21:26
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Doctor Butts posted:I don't understand. Saint Celestine posted:.......why? Bannon wants to raise taxes on the top to: - Punish "elites" - Raise money to redistribute to whites - Raise money to spend on infrastructure and "national greatness" projects like the wall. - The previous 2 will make a new "American Nationalist" coalition. - The success of this program will reshape the Republican Party to remove power from elites that favor multiculturalism and globalists. Bannon is not an orthodox conservative and wants a Le Pen-style White Nationalist Welfare State and national unity. He thinks a constant focus on cutting taxes for rich people and cutting spending distracts from their ability to build the wall or rally whites to their nationalist/anti-elites/anti-globalist cause.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:27
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Saint Celestine posted:.......why? He's actually something of an economic progressive as long as it mostly benefits white people / advances his dream of white Christian American fascism.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:28
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Bannon wants to raise taxes on the top to: He's a bit of a socialist. Specifically, a national one.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:28
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https://twitter.com/Scout_Finch/status/881935058063564800
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Jul 3, 2017 21:29
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Bannon wants to raise taxes on the top to: I always have a moment of bemusement when you make actual good posts. 
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Jul 3, 2017 21:30
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HonorableTB posted:As a native Southerner, I often have found myself in a conflicted state over the past few years. I'm huge into history, especially military history, and growing up in a small rural Georgian town next to the border of Alabama means that from the time I was born until the day I moved to Seattle (so 24 years or so), I was inundated with pro-Confederate thought, culture, history, and all that. What people don't seem to understand is that in the south, especially super rural areas, this poo poo is so deeply ingrained that it has come to represent southerners as a cultural and historical identity across the region. People are so used to seeing the Confederate battle flag literally everywhere (flying from buildings, porches, trucks, bumper stickers, shirts, literally anything you could think of) that to most people in the south, it no longer represents the Confederacy itself, or slavery, or "states rights", or really anything beyond "this is a southern symbol, it symbolizes who we are and our country/rural/southern lifestyle, down home cookin', huntin', shootin', sweet tea and cornbread" and has become, itself, an idea of what our entire region is, was, and will be. Speaking as a direct descendant of General Bragg, people know exactly what it represents and exactly what The Heritage is. They long for it. They'll never openly say it but when they think it's safe... Of course not everyone thinks that, but anyone speaking fondly of the Confederates or hanging the battle flag are well aware why they are, in my experience.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:30
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BarbarianElephant posted:Don't jump down my throat assuming I was being jingoistic. I was criticizing the lack of awareness of what we did wrong - not celebrating it! You said the U.K. doesn't celebrate the empire, that doesn't seem true. That's what I'm saying.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:30
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If they allow states to eliminate Medicaid I could totally see some states eliminating Medicaid for prisoners or people who are felons or have a drug conviction. I could also see a if you lose Medicaid once you can never have it again being passed in a lot of those states. Basically eliminate Medicaid then fund charity hospitals at a fraction of the cost and that's what the poor rely on.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:31
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HonorableTB posted:As a native Southerner, I often have found myself in a conflicted state over the past few years. I'm huge into history, especially military history, and growing up in a small rural Georgian town next to the border of Alabama means that from the time I was born until the day I moved to Seattle (so 24 years or so), I was inundated with pro-Confederate thought, culture, history, and all that. What people don't seem to understand is that in the south, especially super rural areas, this poo poo is so deeply ingrained that it has come to represent southerners as a cultural and historical identity across the region. People are so used to seeing the Confederate battle flag literally everywhere (flying from buildings, porches, trucks, bumper stickers, shirts, literally anything you could think of) that to most people in the south, it no longer represents the Confederacy itself, or slavery, or "states rights", or really anything beyond "this is a southern symbol, it symbolizes who we are and our country/rural/southern lifestyle, down home cookin', huntin', shootin', sweet tea and cornbread" and has become, itself, an idea of what our entire region is, was, and will be. The association is absolutely there for a great deal of people in the South and for almost everyone in the other 3/4 of the country, dude. You can feel loyalty to your home state and your roots and still realize that the Confederate flag is a symbol of treasonous racists who threw a tantrum because they wanted to keep owning black people. It should disappear and die, existing only as a relic in history books. I realize that racism isn't something limited to the South--hell, I live in Massachusetts, and Boston was one of the most racist cities in the Northeast for the latter part of the 20th century. You seem to realize that one side of the equation is objectively wrong, so I'd ask you to think about one thing. Say you were a German Jew after 1950 or so, and certain people in your neighborhood wanted to keep flying the Nazi flag because "it's part of our history!" How would you feel then?
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Jul 3, 2017 21:31
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Jul 3, 2017 21:33
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Good news everyone. Trump ran those ethics concerns by The President and they decided that it wasn't a big deal. “could result in enormous personal financial loss for the president.” No poo poo? Like, uuuh, that's, hmm. Kind of the point?
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Jul 3, 2017 21:34
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Captain Invictus posted:If you feel personally attacked when someone shits on the Confederate flag you are a bad person. Gut level opinions instilled in you by your culture growing up are very hard to change, no matter what you may know or feel about them as an adult. This is far from a uniquely southern thing, most people feel embattled when bad opinions they have held from childhood are challenged, even if they wholly agree with the thing the speaker said on an intellectual level. It's a quirk in the way humans think. It takes a long period of exposure to really properly get over.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:35
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Trabisnikof posted:You said the U.K. doesn't celebrate the empire, that doesn't seem true. That's what I'm saying. Not in the way the South does. We don't have "Empire reenactment days" or anything like that. It's a little creepy how much it is Not Mentioned. Compare to Germany where the sins of WW2 are absolutely acknowledged and confronted, not swept under the carpet.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:35
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Self-deportation from life. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 21:36
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BarbarianElephant posted:Not in the way the South does. We don't have "Empire reenactment days" or anything like that. It's a little creepy how much it is Not Mentioned. THEY WERE INVITED! PUNCH WAS SERVED! CHECK WITH POLAND!  Seriously, though, Germany has dealt with its demons from WW2 in a much more admirable way than the South has in America. They clamp down VERY hard on any mention of anti-Semitism there, and neo-Nazis are, if possible, even more hated there than they are here.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:38
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BarbarianElephant posted:Not in the way the South does. We don't have "Empire reenactment days" or anything like that. It's a little creepy how much it is Not Mentioned. You're completely wrong and you don't even realize how constantly praised the empire is. The British Museum is a tribute to the Empire. Greenwich being the UTC is a tribute to the Empire. You're right you don't call it the empire, you call it your history. But you certainly celebrate it. As far as reenactments go, you'll find just as many idiots in the UK dressing up as red coats as you'll find southerners wearing confederate gray.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:41
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...b69b7071abc9d1/ He gazed up at the enormous article. One hundred and sixty four days it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Donald Trump.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:42
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HonorableTB posted:People are so used to seeing the Confederate battle flag literally everywhere (flying from buildings, porches, trucks, bumper stickers, shirts, literally anything you could think of) that to most people in the south, it no longer represents the Confederacy itself, or slavery, or "states rights", or really anything beyond "this is a southern symbol, it symbolizes who we are and our country/rural/southern lifestyle, down home cookin', huntin', shootin', sweet tea and cornbread" and has become, itself, an idea of what our entire region is, was, and will be. That's quite a lot of words to express "I will ignore the parts of the past that included slavery." I grew up in the south, and I don't get queasy when someone denigrates that traitor's rag. e- To be more clear, what that flag symbolizes for white southerners is utterly irrelevant. KickerOfMice fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 21:42
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Alter Ego posted:THEY WERE INVITED! PUNCH WAS SERVED! CHECK WITH POLAND! Germany had what in the American context you might call a complete and full Reconstruction, along with war crime tribunals. No such thing happens in the American South, and after only a couple of decades the pre-war administrations were effectively back in place. Slavery was gone but they wasted no time in implementing as close a facsimile as they could manage. I don't know that the political will for a completed reconstruction ever existed, but if nothing else it should definitely have included the continued disenfranchisement of all Confederates, or at the very least a much longer sunset time.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:44
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Groovelord Neato posted:the actual conflict in this country is between the 99 percent and the 1 percent and he's on the wrong side. No, the conflict is between the liberals and the regressives. A poor regressive amazingly doesn't want to help people. I know that the idea that the poor aren't all noble and good and everyone with money doesn't just want to burn everything down hurts you, but you have to accept it. La Brea Carpet posted:My main objection to Zuck, beside him possibly being an android, is that he has control over the way that a large chunk of the US population gets its news and information. Right. It would be like finding a way to fight back against the right wing propaganda engine and crush it. And people are wringing their hands saying that oh, that would be such a bad thing. We might end up doing something unethical, like forcing voters to acknowledge Republicans as monsters in every election. Oh, the violating of political courtesy of it all! FuturePastNow posted:I don't like Zuckerburg because Facebook is complicit in the downfall of modern civilization. I recall people claiming the exact same thing about Trump and regressive causes. And yet, trans rights are being burned to the ground under him.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:45
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They added a plaque to the Lee and Jackson statue at my local park that calls it out as racist propaganda, which is a step in the right direction, but I'm really hoping they just get rid of it entirely. It's not even a particularly nice statue.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:45
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No news from Mueller's investigation this week? You'd think there's been progress since Comey's testimony last month.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:47
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Fulchrum posted:
Of all your dumb defense of Zucks, this takes the cake. You're saying that since Trump is regressive as gently caress and people said he might not be that bad, therefor Zucks has to be a true progressive. Impeccable logic, especially when you consider Trump's lifetime of regressive acts and Zucks lack of a lifetime of progressive acts.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:50
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Grouchio posted:No news from Mueller's investigation this week? You'd think there's been progress since Comey's testimony last month. I'm pretty sure the Mueller investigation will end up being a nothingburger anyway.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:51
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Pollyanna posted:I'm pretty sure the Mueller investigation will end up being a nothingburger anyway. One does not hire every top-level justice department lawyer dealing with financial crimes and public corruption in the service of a nothing investigation.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:53
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Crow Jane posted:They added a plaque to the Lee and Jackson statue at my local park that calls it out as racist propaganda, which is a step in the right direction, but I'm really hoping they just get rid of it entirely. It's not even a particularly nice statue. I'm fine with the plaque sort of solution. It's not quite as good as a more comprehensive "this is why the Confederacy sucks" thing, but for little monuments? I think I might like it better than shelving them forever. I maintain that eg the New Orleans stuff needs to wind up perfectly preserved in a Museum of Traitor and White Supremacist Scum Propaganda, though.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:53
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Pollyanna posted:I'm pretty sure the Mueller investigation will end up being a nothingburger anyway. Anything less than Trump resigning or being impeached is a nothingburger to you right?
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Jul 3, 2017 21:54
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