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Disinterested posted:The word games about strains of anarchism and libertarianism are really boring I mean anarchism at it's core is about wanting a world without oppression or hierarchies That's not what ancaps want at all, they just borrowed the popular definition of anarchy of "no rules" and stapled it onto libertarianism
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Jul 3, 2017 20:24
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Jazerus posted:a "night watchman" state is just feudalism rather than the warlordism of ancaps Feudalism and warlordism are not really as distinct as is commonly depicted. fishmech posted:States rule. I mean, by definition yeah.
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Jul 3, 2017 20:32
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fishmech posted:States rule. 
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Jul 3, 2017 20:36
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Goon Danton posted:Feudalism and warlordism are not really as distinct as is commonly depicted. 
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Jul 3, 2017 20:37
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Disinterested posted:We have a tendency to treat libertarianism as an anarchist position itt, I've noticed, rather than a night watchman state one Only if you take the anti-statism part of anarchism and leave the rest on the floor. An anarchist would probably oppose being ruled by a DAO or even a landholder, but DAOs and feudalism ("landlords aren't a state I swear!") are like ancap bread and butter. Social anarchism clearly opposes the ancap idea that an individual's property rights are the only rights that matter And the reason that we mostly talk about ancaps is two-fold: A) they're maybe the funniest kind of libertarian, since they naively expect specific positive outcomes based on their complete misreading of human nature, and B) the forum for many years had a resident libertarian who was an ancap, but eventually he threatened to commit credit card fraud against Lowtax and get permabanned for it QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 21:37
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Disinterested posted:Not really, it's just classical liberalism (another more worthwhile intellectual tradition most libertarians ignore) Indeed, Whether it's the true founders of the tradition like Adam Smith, or more modern proponents like Hayek, they don't seem nearly as evil as modern Libertarians. I blame Rothbard, who seems to have a bit of a cult following. Meanwhile, Hayek is labeled as a "socialist" by some modern Libertarians I read.
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Jul 3, 2017 21:51
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QuarkJets posted:A) they're maybe the funniest kind of libertarian, since they naively expect specific positive outcomes based on their complete misreading of human nature I always understood it as them reading human nature correctly ("everyone is inherantly selfish,") but then drawing utterly absurd conclusions from that ("therefore, if freed from the burdensome regulations of the nanny state, everyone will act with an eye towards greatest long-term prosperity!")
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Jul 3, 2017 21:55
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I think it's a correct reading of some aspects but an incorrect reading of others, for instance assuming that businesses would definitely not discriminate against black customers because surely they would get boycotted and go out of business, and ignoring the tragedy of the commons like you said
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Jul 3, 2017 21:58
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Typically the miscalculation is not about whether human beings are inherently selfish but to what extent they're inherently rational.
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Jul 3, 2017 22:00
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don't usually use forums or Reddit, I usually just post comments on Ancap blogs like Molyneux or Cantwell's blog, but they didn't seem appropriate places to post my story. So here goes, I just wanted to share this with all of you. Nov 3 I flew to Europe for a Eurotrip type tour. Not a guide or packaged deal, just going around by myself. I paid for half of the trip with the wages I earned over the last two years, my dad paid for the other half. I am 19, I guess that is normal starting college and all. (Before that I worked for my dad's company part time, so I guess you could say he paid for all of it, lol). I did France and then Italy and then Greece next. I am an Ancap so I wanted to see anarchists in these places. Yes, I know they are different kinds of "anarchists" and not really full anarchists like us. I went to an anarchist book store in Italy and it had a lot of English books, but no Rothbard or Ancap. Like I said, I expected that, not a surprise. I went to Greece, which everyone knows is famous for its revolutionary anarchism, its economic crisis and everything going on right now. Here I found directions for a local anarchist center. I went and didn't see anybody, but it was covered in graffiti, mostly in Greek so I couldn't read it. Whatever, I started taking pictures. Then some people came out and confronted me. This should have been my first warning sign something was not right, because photography is not a crime. They were not violent, but they were not friendly, like asking who I was, what I wanted. They all spoke good English actually. Not uncommon in Greece. I said I was a tourist and an anarchist and I just wanted to take pictures. Then they got friendly and told me I should have asked first (but pictures are no NAP violation so I don't know why, but I didn't say anything) and they invited me inside. We hung out for a while and smoked hash (there is no good dank in Europe as you might find out like in Cali, everyone smokes hash with tobacco which isn't as cool as it sounds). We started talking about politics and anarchism. I was trying to talk about the state, they were like yeah no doubt the state was bad. But they wanted to talk about capitalism, capitalism this and that. This is when we started to get into a debate. I told them that what they called capitalism is different from the free market. They said capitalism is free markets. And I said I agreed. That is what I am saying. Real capitalism is free markets. And they said yes, that is what we are trying to get rid of. And I said no, but we don't even have that right now. We need more free markets. And everyone at the same time was like "nooo" we are anarchists, we are against capitalism. Anarchists oppose capitalism. And I said but not anarcho-capitalists. Anarcho-capitalists are the anarchists who support capitalism. I had a fanny pack (yeah, lame I know) for my camera and in that I had this yellow and black bowtie (also super lame, it was a joke but I wasnt wearing it). And I said look, these are the Ancap colors, yellow and black, like versus the communist red and black. Well, these guys had a lot of red and black in the building already so I thought they would get it. I think that is when it started to get a really bad vibe, really tense in the air. The free market thing was funny, we disagreed but I think they thought I was just confused. Everyone was uncomfortable now. Then someone said markets wont work with democracy. And I said exactly, that's it, democracy is against anarchism. And they kind of agreed, and said yes, we don't have real democracy, just governments, and we needed more democracy. I said no, we need less democracy, democracy is the enemy. And we need to end democracy to have anarchy. Then they were all like "noooo" again. You know that thing people do in groups when everyone all says "nooo" or expresses some disapproval at the same time. And one of them said "but we do want to stop democracy" and then they kind of spoke back and forth in Greek. I didn't really understand it. And they asked me what I meant. So I said okay, I had the floor, I was going to tell them about ancapism. And I tried to explain to them some Rothbard and Hoppe. I said the natural order in anarchy is that the best rise to the top, the market picks who is the best. They compete and are peaceful. They said what do we want instead of anarchy. I said we want private owners to own their own land and businesses, and to employ people. They said that is what we have now. I said no, it would be even better. One of the guys said it was like feudalism. And I said it is not feudalism. Eventually one of the guys spoke up and I thought he was Greek, but he spoke English perfectly so he may have not been. He said he knew what anarcho-capitalism was and that we were basically fascists. He asked me if I thought everything should be private. And I said yes. And he asked me if I thought people were unequal. And I told him yes. And that not everyone would have equal rights. I said everyone has the right to own property and not be done aggression against. But that not everyone had to be treated equally by the owners. He said what about immigrants and racism. And I said that would not happen in a free market, but yes property owners could be racist if they wanted to. They had to respect property. Then he called me a fascist again, and someone else said I was a fascist. And then they basically all started shouting fascist at me, and one of them grabbed me by the wrists. They pulled me out the door, it was up three floors, and basically drug me down the stairs on my back. It hurt really bad and I remember yelling "you're breaking the NAP" and things like that. "Stop initiating force against me." Then they kicked me around on the ground in the hallway, before they took my camera and threw me outside. I was crying and stuff, I just sat there. I was in shock because it was so sudden. Looking back there were warning signs though. I think they felt bad for me and gave the camera back, but when I looked later they stole the memory card with all of my Greek photos. So they initiated force and theft. They broke the NAP. I knew the left anarchists were not real anarchists, but I never knew they would do something that bad. I wasnt seriously hurt, just kicked around a little, lots of bruises and little cuts. I am fine guys so don't worry. Just needed to share.
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Jul 3, 2017 22:01
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I knew what it was from the first words and it never stops being good, everyone hates ancaps
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Jul 3, 2017 22:01
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I find ancaps funny because they're endlessly arguing that a private entity that owns land, makes the laws of that land, and enforces those laws with an army is somehow magically not a state.
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Jul 3, 2017 22:09
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NikkolasKing posted:Indeed, Whether it's the true founders of the tradition like Adam Smith, or more modern proponents like Hayek, they don't seem nearly as evil as modern Libertarians. I blame Rothbard, who seems to have a bit of a cult following. Meanwhile, Hayek is labeled as a "socialist" by some modern Libertarians I read. He was branded by Ayn Rand a 'dangerous compromiser'. It's a hallmark of libertarians that they throw away all of the better-credentialed exponents of their own beliefs in favour of the most base dipshits available.
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Jul 3, 2017 22:20
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Halloween Jack posted:I find ancaps funny because they're endlessly arguing that a private entity that owns land, makes the laws of that land, and enforces those laws with an army is somehow magically not a state. I don't see the word "taxes" there anywhere. I guess you'd be "free" to not pay the "army bill" and then... uh, freedom ensues.
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Jul 3, 2017 23:04
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Kochs like Hayak that alone would put some competing groups off him
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Jul 3, 2017 23:52
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QuarkJets posted:I think it's a correct reading of some aspects but an incorrect reading of others, for instance assuming that businesses would definitely not discriminate against black customers because surely they would get boycotted and go out of business, and ignoring the tragedy of the commons like you said this is why it was hilarious to watch the libertarians cry foul when Mozilla got boycotted in a genuine worldwide disgusted customer uprising because Brendan Eich is an unrepentant homophobe. "no no, we didn't mean boycotting us"
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Jul 3, 2017 23:53
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divabot posted:this is why it was hilarious to watch the libertarians cry foul when Mozilla got boycotted in a genuine worldwide disgusted customer uprising because Brendan Eich is an unrepentant homophobe. The Market taketh. 
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Jul 4, 2017 00:04
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Halloween Jack posted:I find ancaps funny because they're endlessly arguing that a private entity that owns land, makes the laws of that land, and enforces those laws with an army is somehow magically not a state. You voluntarily pay to live on that entity's land. Alternatively they fantasize about being that entity. That don't want to abolish the state; they want to be the state. The idea is that if you own land it's 100% yours and nobody can tell you what to do with it. So you can just ban absolutely everybody else from it or rent chunks of it out or whatever. Owning land as far as they're concerned makes you the state. Of course they just ignore that you'd end up with some need of a government to enforce land ownership or you'd have to actively defend the land because somebody will come take it from you if there's nothing preventing it.
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Jul 4, 2017 01:04
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ToxicSlurpee posted:or you'd have to actively defend the land because somebody will come take it from you if there's nothing preventing it. You say this like there aren't a bunch of nutters out there that want exactly that.
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Jul 4, 2017 01:23
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ToxicSlurpee posted:You voluntarily pay to live on that entity's land. Alternatively they fantasize about being that entity. That don't want to abolish the state; they want to be the state. Well hey you could also pay out enough protection money that the bandits will keep any other bandits out of the territory just to keep anyone else from loving up their sure thing and hey does this sound a lot like literal feudalism because there's a reason people remark that ancapistan comes out to literal feudalism.
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Jul 4, 2017 01:28
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reignonyourparade posted:Well hey you could also pay out enough protection money that the bandits will keep any other bandits out of the territory just to keep anyone else from loving up their sure thing and hey does this sound a lot like literal feudalism because there's a reason people remark that ancapistan comes out to literal feudalism. That or it's like "hey let's just bring back the mob rule and boss system of the prohibition era" and it's like loving no. That went away for a reason.
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Jul 4, 2017 02:36
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ToxicSlurpee posted:That or it's like "hey let's just bring back the mob rule and boss system of the prohibition era" and it's like loving no. That went away for a reason. Obligatory Rothbard essay. Uncle Murray's going on one of his rants at Thanksgiving again posted:The key to The Godfathers and to success in the Mafia genre is the realization and dramatic portrayal of the fact that the Mafia, although leading a life outside the law, is, at its best, simply entrepreneurs and businessmen supplying the consumers with goods and services of which they have been unaccountably deprived by a Puritan WASP culture.
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Jul 4, 2017 03:08
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The part you quoted is hilarious because the movies literally in dialogue makes it explicit that our main characters are poo poo because they run their family businesses the same way politicians run a country and the that one of the reasons the hyper masculine capitalism libertarians love sucks rear end forever is because the racism built into it in the US is what isolated these characters in the first place. After the events of the first movie getting endorsed repeatedly by people who represent the state is the only reason the family even continues to exist. Like I know libertarian so yeah the person's delusional and there's no nuance but libertarian readings of movies are always amazing. Like how do you even write that many words and be so wrong. His bit about Goodfellas is amazing too because that movie is frankly extremely accurate to reality.
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Jul 4, 2017 03:47
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Let's bring this into the 21st century have a libertarian fail at understanding a video game.
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Jul 4, 2017 05:26
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Curvature of Earth posted:Let's bring this into the 21st century have a libertarian fail at understanding a video game. the comments are a delight
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Jul 4, 2017 08:08
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Stinky_Pete posted:Land ownership in general has always been very fishy to me. I guess that's why I'm a neogeoist
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Jul 4, 2017 09:04
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Curvature of Earth posted:Let's bring this into the 21st century have a libertarian fail at understanding a video game. Looks like someone else got stuck on Lugdunum too
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Jul 4, 2017 10:17
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"Al Capone reduced violence to a minimum" -- an idiot
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Jul 4, 2017 22:43
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It's probably my favorite of his essays just for how consistently stupid he is about literally everything. And that last paragraph, perfection. 
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Jul 4, 2017 23:06
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Goon Danton posted:It's probably my favorite of his essays just for how consistently stupid he is about literally everything. Something something self-ownership 
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Jul 4, 2017 23:24
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wasn't the whole plot of that movie that don corleone wasn't going to sell drugs
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Jul 4, 2017 23:24
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If government regulation is so beneficial, then why can't a complete a childrens' video game?
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Jul 4, 2017 23:45
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The game is bad and I definitely was not an incompetent ruler due to a mixture of flawed ideology and nonexistent self awareness.
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Jul 5, 2017 08:38
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The best part is when he starts to talk about how great the Godfather III is going to be.
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Jul 5, 2017 11:02
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Curvature of Earth posted:Let's bring this into the 21st century have a libertarian fail at understanding a video game. He's actually mad that there's not an option to let the game play itself.
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Jul 5, 2017 11:09
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Alhazred posted:He's actually mad that there's not an option to let the game play itself. Any game with that option would logically go libertarian. I remember setting both teams to CPU control in NFL2K1 and they immediately formed Galt's Gulch.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:00
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What do libertarians think about the death of the author? Did Rothbard think Coppola is an ancap or was he simply offering his superior, market oriented interpretation?
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Jul 5, 2017 20:16
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White Coke posted:What do libertarians think about the death of the author? Did Rothbard think Coppola is an ancap or was he simply offering his superior, market oriented interpretation? The Vosgian Beast posted:Let us also never forget his hilariously terrible review of Star Wars
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Jul 5, 2017 20:38
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That's incredible. Found the full text of it:quote:First came the hype. That Star Wars is going to be the biggest popular film success since Jaws means very little. So every season is going to have its oversold smash hit, so what? But the difference, the new hype, with Star Wars was its overwhelming acclaim among the critics. Usually the masses whoop it up for a Jaws while the critics go ape over Bertolucii or Fassbinder. Yet here they were in joint huzzahs, with the critic from Time flipping his wig to such an extent as to call it the best movie of the year and making Star Wars the feature of that week’s issue.
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Jul 5, 2017 21:07
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QuarkJets posted:(pasted ancap in greece story) I liked his "the best will rise to the top" and "not everyone is equal, and not everyone deserves equal rights" immediately preceding his forcible ejection from an unwelcoming host's land. Who other than the Greek co-owners hosting that dork can define proportional response on the land-claim of those same selfsame parties? And if a light beating and theft isn't just, why does an outsider's thoughts and feelings override the law of said land? If I'm bigger and stronger than an anCap (and claim the land he's on) then how would his magic words of NAP prevent me from getting rough with him? With no state keeping standard mutually-recognized records of residents and properties, who's to say he and his property ever really existed and that his body is hidden somewhere on my new (completely private NO TRESPASSERS) plot of land...
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Jul 5, 2017 21:09
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