|
It is safe to assume that all demons are apostles. This no reason to think otherwise. However, mythical creatures like trolls, fairies, and merfolk are not demons and not apostles. Mozgus appears to be something other, like angels.
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2017 19:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 00:31 |
|
|
Zeruel posted:Was Mozgus really an apostle priest? Huh. Apostle spawn. Just like the slug-count's guard captain in the Black Swordsman arc, but significantly more badass.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2017 19:38
|
|
EmmyOk posted:I forgot his body turned into an old man! I wonder about Zodd so. There's a crazy fan theory that Zodd is Guts' dad, based entirely on the fact that they have similar hair and ears. Personally, I'm fine with never learning what Zodd's deal is. I don't really want to find out that he, too, is just a lovely old man or like a useless baby or something. Zodd is fine as Zodd and if he ever dies I hope his corpse just gets exploded before we can see it.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2017 23:30
|
|
|
That's dumb, Zodd's been alive and sighted on battlefields for centuries. It's like the first thing the manga ever says about him.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2017 23:34
|
|
|
I probably won't read the Millennium Falcon Arc until next weekend but that gives me plenty of time to let the previous two arcs percolate in my brain. My current pet theory or more accurately what I am currently trying to make sense of in my mind is the Skull Man. When the gang descended the tower to save Griffith the princess dropped a torch and it landed on a corpse with the sacrificial brand at the bottom of the pit. At the time I assumed it meant this would be where the eclipse occurred as it was a holy demonic site but then I forgot about it when they escaped with Griffith. The following I know are facts At the bottom of the pit there are many bodies at least one of whom has the brand and presumably they all do. An emperor unified all of the warring midlands to make a great empire but its capital city was smashed up by God and thrown into the pit The Skull Man is supernatural and does not like the inhumans. He's also all but explicitly (possibly even explicitly stated to be the emperor) So my theory initially was that the Emperor offered up his entire city to the Godhand to gain immense power as a demon. This explains why the Skull Man is now supernatural and also why that amazing city effectively disappeared overnight. The problems with it though are that the Skull Man hates the Godhand and is actively fighting them which wouldn't make sense if he had sought power from them. Perhaps he gained power from them and wanted to overthrow them which is why he saved Guts too, an ally in his war with the Godhand. In this scenario he's not actually a good guy he's just looking for allies to aide his own evil machinations. I don't think that's right though because he also saved Luca which was totally unnecessary and not what you'd expect from a secret baddy. This leads me to believe that somehow someone else sacrificed the whole city for power but this leaves two new questions. Firstly it is understandable that the emperor could sacrifice his demesne but it'd be weird if one of his citizens or even ministers did it. Secondly if he didn't offer up his kingdom or something as sacrifice then where did he get his power from? I'm guessing either way that ancient city was on the receiving end of a similar event to the one where Griffith became Femto. Nuebot posted:There's a crazy fan theory that Zodd is Guts' dad, based entirely on the fact that they have similar hair and ears. That would be quite strange and I hope it's not the case because I prefer Guts being all human and standing up to these supernatural beings despite being "just human". Zodd has been around 500 years or so therefore if he was Guts dad it'd be after he became a demon.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2017 23:46
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:That's dumb, Zodd's been alive and sighted on battlefields for centuries. It's like the first thing the manga ever says about him. It is very dumb and goofy. The ear thing is the only real link between them but "kind of pointy ears" doesn't mean they're any more related than Grunbeld and Isidro who both have red hair. EmmyOk posted:Secondly if he didn't offer up his kingdom or something as sacrifice then where did he get his power from? I'm guessing either way that ancient city was on the receiving end of a similar event to the one where Griffith became Femto. Skullomania is a cool and mysterious dude. He seems to know a lot about the brand and has a beef with Void.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2017 23:54
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:That's dumb, Zodd's been alive and sighted on battlefields for centuries. It's like the first thing the manga ever says about him. Being centuries old doesn't render you unable to gently caress. Just ask Slan.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2017 23:56
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Being centuries old doesn't render you unable to gently caress. Just ask Slan. Oh you know I read that differently, I thought they were saying that Zodd was Gambino.  I guess he could be Guts' biological dad, but, uh, there's no particular reason to think so.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 00:01
|
|
|
The prevailing theory is that Skullomania is indeed King Gaiseric, but he and his kingdom were sacrifices for Void. He's basically walking the same path that Guts is on, just much further down.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 00:16
|
|
|
Begemot posted:The prevailing theory is that Skullomania is indeed King Gaiseric, but he and his kingdom were sacrifices for Void. He's basically walking the same path that Guts is on, just much further down. Yeah that's where I am at the minute because he Void is the one he refers to directly. I wonder how he's become supernatural then. I wonder if Guts will get any new Demon fighting gear now that Griffith is back.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 00:19
|
|
|
By the way the Millennium Falcon arc is like, twice as long as the Golden Age iirc.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 01:06
|
|
|
EmmyOk posted:
I am fairly sure that they address this somewhere in the tower of conviction arc - Gaiseric (the emperor) imprisoned a high ranking priest who then sacrificed the kingdom to become Void. Gaiseric somehow survived (and was likely branded too) and became the Skull Knight over time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 06:21
|
|
|
IN A WORLD full of death, one man would sacrifice everything in order to achieve his dreams. BERSERK. Coming to theaters this fall. temple posted:It is safe to assume that all demons are apostles. This no reason to think otherwise. However, mythical creatures like trolls, fairies, and merfolk are not demons and not apostles. Mozgus appears to be something other, like angels. Is it safe to assume? Apostles are dudes from earth. During the eclipse it seemed like there were a poo poo ton of demons just chilling in the not-reality space that the godhand exist in. Non-human demons. I could be wrong though. Could be those demons were all the apostles from like years and years and years built up. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Jul 4, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 06:37
|
|
|
Zodd being an old Apostle who's been going around for centuries having dust ups with Skully and looking for great fights is all he needs to be and anything beyond that would be less good.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 06:43
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:IN A WORLD full of death, one man would sacrifice everything in order to achieve his dreams. I think they were all apostles, you can see the Slug Count and the hot woman apostle Guts kills on like the first page of Berserk during the Eclipse.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 07:11
|
|
|
Josuke Higashikata posted:Zodd being an old Apostle who's been going around for centuries having dust ups with Skully and looking for great fights is all he needs to be and anything beyond that would be less good. Why are Zodd and Skull Knight fighting anyway? Zodd presumably fights "the powerful" "just because", but was made an apostle. SK has a clear thing with Void, but conversations with Zodd don't negate some previous event, particularly if SK no longer really cares. Prior to the intertwining of the planes, however, only Zodd, Wyald, the Count, and the Egg are noted as apostles, though I guess others talk of many of the new band of falcon's members in the past tense after the fact. Since the Godhand only seem to require some sacrifice to grant apostlehood, nothing prevents a weird situation where Zodd became an apostle at the same time Void went Godhand, or shortly thereafter. "May not want what you want", says Skull Knight, of Casca... but in reference to what past experience? ^^^ Oh yeah, slut woman quasi-apostle or something. Well, it still seems strange that there aren't really apostles "around" other than Zodd until after Griffith ascends.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 07:17
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:I could be wrong though. Could be those demons were all the apostles from like years and years and years built up. I don't think apostles have to be grand, those demons could all be regular people that received a behelit.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 07:23
|
|
|
Googled Femto and wikipedia has this to say about femtograms. "The HIV-1 virus weighs about 1 x 10−15 g or 1 fg"
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 07:23
|
|
|
Also I'm pretty sure Rosine from Mist Valley shows up at the Band of the Hawk's injured people camp before the eclipse but I don't think she shows up during it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 07:39
|
|
|
temple posted:I don't think apostles have to be grand, those demons could all be regular people that received a behelit. Oh no they're not all grand. It just seems like a ton of demons if they're really all people who got behelits. That's like, thousands of thousands of behelits. Would make sense to me if there were demons just living outside of reality, or if the godhand could just manifest demons at will that don't require a human origin. GodFish posted:I think they were all apostles, you can see the Slug Count and the hot woman apostle Guts kills on like the first page of Berserk during the Eclipse. Yeah definitely could be. PhantomOfTheCopier posted:^^^ Oh yeah, slut woman quasi-apostle or something. Well, it still seems strange that there aren't really apostles "around" other than Zodd until after Griffith ascends. Yeaaaah, but Miura's been pretty honest that he was making up a ton of the story as he went along. The band of the hawk didn't even exist until several issues into the series. He kinda filled in that story later so it could be that there are apostles all around pre-eclipse its just they weren't really shown because of retcons. Or alternatively pre-eclipse they were all in hiding and pretending to be humans / saints / angels whatever, and it was the eclipse that brought them all out of the woodwork. The eclipse definitely summoned a ton of apostles to the scene so that's feasible. PhantomOfTheCopier posted:Why are Zodd and Skull Knight fighting anyway? Zodd presumably fights "the powerful" "just because", but was made an apostle. SK has a clear thing with Void, but conversations with Zodd don't negate some previous event, particularly if SK no longer really cares. Prior to the intertwining of the planes, however, only Zodd, Wyald, the Count, and the Egg are noted as apostles, though I guess others talk of many of the new band of falcon's members in the past tense after the fact. Since the Godhand only seem to require some sacrifice to grant apostlehood, nothing prevents a weird situation where Zodd became an apostle at the same time Void went Godhand, or shortly thereafter. "May not want what you want", says Skull Knight, of Casca... but in reference to what past experience? Zodd serves Griffith and the Godhand, so before Femto he probably just did Void's bidding and probably hosed with SK because Void told him to. Or maybe just because SK is the biggest badass around 
Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Jul 4, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 08:25
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Oh no they're not all grand. It just seems like a ton of demons if they're really all people who got behelits. That's like, thousands of thousands of behelits. I'm pretty sure there are actually thousands of behilits. You can see a bunch of them being made by the Idea of Evil in the deleted chapter. Turning into an apostle seems to prevent death by aging, so unless apostles are being killed at regular intervals, you are going to have a ton of them by the time the Eclipse happens 800-something years after the first member of the Godhand was born. If anything, the number of apostles there for the Eclipse seems too small.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 08:44
|
|
|
Begemot posted:The prevailing theory is that Skullomania is indeed King Gaiseric, but he and his kingdom were sacrifices for Void. He's basically walking the same path that Guts is on, just much further down. I don't think Skull Knight has a brand, which I guess is why he isn't outside of fate like Guts and Casca.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 09:55
|
|
|
RatHat posted:I don't think Skull Knight has a brand, which I guess is why he isn't outside of fate like Guts and Casca. How would you tell? He's a skeleton completely encased in armor!
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 10:53
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:How would you tell? He's a skeleton completely encased in armor! That's how he beat the brand! He took his skin off.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 12:41
|
|
|
GodFish posted:Also I'm pretty sure Rosine from Mist Valley shows up at the Band of the Hawk's injured people camp before the eclipse but I don't think she shows up during it. I think Rickert sees her on the lake? Along with a bunch of other monsters; having to escape from them is what keeps him from entering the Eclipse IIRC. Maybe the area around the Eclipse was a little affected too, like it bent reality around itself just enough to let them run a little wild? The fantasy stuff being around a little prior to the world transforming always confuses me a little when I reread...
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 17:17
|
|
|
RatHat posted:I don't think Skull Knight has a brand, which I guess is why he isn't outside of fate like Guts and Casca. It's incredibly questionable whether "being outside of fate" is even really a thing given Guts' actions ultimately led to Griffith's physical rebirth.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 17:21
|
|
|
Genocyber posted:It's incredibly questionable whether "being outside of fate" is even really a thing given Guts' actions ultimately led to Griffith's physical rebirth. Nah, Eggbert would have done that eventually anyway. What Guts and Caska bring to the table is the Baby following them around, and Eggs adding the Baby to the mix was definitely not part of the plan.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 17:58
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Oh no they're not all grand. It just seems like a ton of demons if they're really all people who got behelits. That's like, thousands of thousands of behelits. What? Of course there were apostles pre-eclipse. We directly see two of them, Zodd and Wyald, and that eclipse doesn't, like, fundamentally change the world or anything. There are old legends about behelits, and just based on the number of God Hand there were FOUR other eclipses. Narratively, it makes perfect sense. Guts is slowly introduced to the sort of nightmare of these weird demons first with Zodd, and then with Wyald, and then in the eclipse. After that, he is literally going around hunting apostles. That's why there are more apostles in the series. He's not a mercenary going around fighting in wars, he's specifically hunting down monsters. The reason there are so many apostles at the eclipse when it doesn't seem like there are that many before is that the world is big. The God Hand could summon every apostle on the whole planet to the eclipse, to celebrate the induction of a new member. It's a weird alternate dimension, that doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility. Across the WHOLE WORLD, there could be hundreds of apostles but they wouldn't necessarily be super common in every day life.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 18:07
|
|
|
Begemot posted:Across the WHOLE WORLD, there could be hundreds of apostles but they wouldn't necessarily be super common in every day life.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 19:00
|
|
|
Begemot posted:What? Of course there were apostles pre-eclipse. We directly see two of them, Zodd and Wyald, and that eclipse doesn't, like, fundamentally change the world or anything. There are old legends about behelits, and just based on the number of God Hand there were FOUR other eclipses. I *never* said there weren't apostles pre-eclipse so I have no idea where you're getting that. Re-read my post or something. The thing we were discussing was whether ALL the demons were apostles. That would thus require all the eclipse demons to have been apostles from pre-eclipse. I was saying that's entirely possible but its also possible there are non-apostle demons. No part of that has anything to do with "no apostles pre-eclipse" what the gently caress dude. I literally said quote:so it could be that there are apostles all around pre-eclipse its just they weren't really shown because of retcons. Or alternatively pre-eclipse they were all in hiding and pretending to be humans / saints / angels whatever, and it was the eclipse that brought them all out of the woodwork. The eclipse definitely summoned a ton of apostles to the scene so that's feasible. What do these words mean? Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jul 4, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 20:27
|
|
|
Ah yeah, I totally misread, my bad. I don't think the eclipse really changed anything for apostles in general though, they just didn't appear in the story because that's not where the focus was. Also I firmly believe that all the demons in the eclipse are apostles, if only because at that point in the story there was no other kind of monster they could be. Trolls and goblins and whatnot were all introduced later. If they were retconned, it would be away from apostles, not to them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 20:39
|
|
|
Begemot posted:Ah yeah, I totally misread, my bad. I don't think the eclipse really changed anything for apostles in general though, they just didn't appear in the story because that's not where the focus was. yeah that's what I was saying, its not what Guts was looking for before then, he didn't even know about them. He knew Zodd but he wasn't really looking for Zodd and didn't fully know what Zodd was. Like I said, its totally possible they're all apostles. And I don't think they're trolls or anything. What I was saying was I think they're demons from the god hand dimension that never started as humans. The god hand are referred to like they're the authors of fate, they can manifest whatever they wish into reality (with some limits) so I don't see why they couldn't just create demons from thin air too if they wanted. But certainly at least a few of them are apostles, that can't be denied. Its just a question of some or all, and it seems like it could go either way. At least until we see the godhand create demons or something like that, its probably safe to assume they're all apostles.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2017 20:44
|
|
Pyrotoad posted:I think Rickert sees her on the lake? Along with a bunch of other monsters; having to escape from them is what keeps him from entering the Eclipse IIRC. They show up early, I assume because they just live in the general area? Her and slug dude. I think she says something about being greedy or impatient for it to start when the skullknight shows up and saves Rickert. I always thought the implication that the Eclipse was a big deal and just called Apostles from all over the globe, hence why there were like thousands. Because a lot of the dudes that were there at the finale show up again in later chapters serving Griffith.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2017 04:03
|
|
|
I think Griffith's eclipse was meant to be a big deal so there was ceremony and all the apostles. They don't do that for other demons and they appear to be egalitarian. So, apostles could be made every day but it not going to be as monumental as the eclipse. Plus, there were so many because there wasn't anyone going around and thinning their numbers. At this point of the story, I bet eclipse turnout would be significantly smaller. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2017 05:18
|
|
|
Is it even a certainty that the behilits still function as they once did in Fantasia? There's no tunnel to make, the astral plane is already omnipresent.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2017 07:26
|
|
|
Only the shallower levels of the interstice overlap with reality, the majority of the astral planes are still fairly far removed from the physical realm, as I understand it. Thinking about it, reaching Elfhelm might have been significantly trickier if the fantasy nuke hadn't gone off (thanks skull knight).
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2017 07:49
|
|
|
The fusion depth has to be fairly significant, elsewise the Godhand wouldn't be fully manifested in the real world.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2017 07:55
|
|
|
It's also possible there's some time fuckery going on and when a member of godhand is welcomed at an eclipse and all the apostles that ever were show up because reality is broken at this specific spot.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2017 08:09
|
|
|
Zasze posted:It's also possible there's some time fuckery going on and when a member of godhand is welcomed at an eclipse and all the apostles that ever were show up because reality is broken at this specific spot. If that was true we prolly would have seen wyald there. I'm thinking all apostles that could get there went there. Zodd showed us that they dont have to go. We didn't see any kushan apostles there either. Well we only know of the emperor and shadow mask guy, but they werent there. (prolly because miura hadn't thought of em yet) Captain_duck fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Jul 5, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2017 09:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 00:31 |
|
|
Wasn't it hinted at that the Skull Knight turned into a spectral being by excessive use of the berserker armor?
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2017 11:15
|
|
