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FishFood posted:I was always hoping New Vegas would get more into Utah, being the dirty Salt Lake Cityite I am. It was alluded to a whole bunch, and I think the Followers of the Apocalypse are based there, but seeing it would be rad. I think Honest Hearts was based partially in Zion, but still. I want to see that post-nuclear temple. Salt Lake City itself got hit by something like 13 nukes because I guess everyone got sick of the Mormon's poo poo. New Canaan was built out of the ruins of Ogden and became a new Mormon city until one of the local crazy tribes destroyed it to suck up to Caesar. Honest Hearts takes place all in Zion national park. You pick up a decent amount about the SLC area since the main story NPCs are two of the few remaining Mormons from New Canaan. The Followers of the Apocalypse are from California iirc. Liquid Communism posted:Yeah, then look at Boston. North Atlantic coast, ocean's still right there no matter how much you nuke it, but here we are with 200+ year old dessicated skeletons posed everywhere and half-naked settlers in rags because Bethesda can't give up the 'everything is the mojave' desert aesthetic. Right, it stinks that Bethesda is content with what it produces now. It'd be fun to have a loving-around post apocalypse game where you'd get fall or snow and gun down super mutants in a blizzard. Kibner posted:Mutant rougarou rise to prominence, replacing super mutants. That would make perfect sense, too! The super mutants on the east coast came out of a vault experiment and the ones on the west coast came out of the main villain from Fallout 2 making a super army. Other mutants would become more dominant in the parts of the US that weren't overrun by the super mutant experiments.
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Jul 4, 2017 16:54
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Nuns with Guns posted:Right, it stinks that Bethesda is content with what it produces now. It'd be fun to have a loving-around post apocalypse game where you'd get fall or snow and gun down super mutants in a blizzard.
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Jul 4, 2017 16:58
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Nuns with Guns posted:Right, it stinks that Bethesda is content with what it produces now. It'd be fun to have a loving-around post apocalypse game where you'd get fall or snow and gun down super mutants in a blizzard.
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Jul 4, 2017 16:59
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Jul 4, 2017 17:01
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Evil Mastermind posted:I don't know if that's as much Bethesda as the high probability of the True Fans flipping out that a new Fallout game doesn't take place in an irradiated desert with ramshackle settlements all over the place and no attempt to fix any sort of infrastructure even though it's been 200+ years since the bombs dropped. I thought all the true fans jumped ship because Fallout 3 & 4 already undermined the first two games where rebuilding and moving on was a thing?
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Jul 4, 2017 17:20
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Nuns with Guns posted:I thought all the true fans jumped ship because Fallout 3 & 4 already undermined the first two games where rebuilding and moving on was a thing? I mean, I remember people flipping out because the game was going first-person, so I know that was a thing?
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Jul 4, 2017 17:24
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I just want a Fallout game that takes place outside of the United States.
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Jul 4, 2017 17:28
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Evil Mastermind posted:Was that what the first two games were about? I admit I never played them due to not having a PC at the time, so I thought the current situation was always the case. Fallout 2 is something like 90 years later and that little farming village is now a large city and the capital of a regional government. Then, some 200 years later than THAT in DC and Boston people are squatting in badly patched up pre-war trailers they never bothered sweeping.
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Jul 4, 2017 17:38
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Evil Mastermind posted:I don't know if that's as much Bethesda as the high probability of the True Fans flipping out that a new Fallout game doesn't take place in an irradiated desert with ramshackle settlements all over the place and no attempt to fix any sort of infrastructure even though it's been 200+ years since the bombs dropped. Literally all of the good Fallouts (1, 2 and NV) take place in a setting where there's working infrastructure, with the scale of that infrastructure getting but with each game, though.
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Jul 4, 2017 17:49
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Nuns with Guns posted:That would make perfect sense, too! The super mutants on the east coast came out of a vault experiment and the ones on the west coast came out of the main villain from Fallout 2 making a super army. Other mutants would become more dominant in the parts of the US that weren't overrun by the super mutant experiments.
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Jul 4, 2017 17:53
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Evil Mastermind posted:Was that what the first two games were about? I admit I never played them due to not having a PC at the time, so I thought the current situation was always the case. Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas are all about the rebuilding of the world in the aftermath of the apocalypse. In the first game, the central conflict revolves around the Master, who plans to forcibly mutate the denizens of the Vaults into a new race of strong, intelligent, and powerful beings-"The next stage in human evolution"-and then take over the world, eradicating war, hunger, and disease. The game also features locations like Junktown, Shady Sands, and the Hub, which are towns built up after the apocalypse where people are simply doing their best to survive, and factions like the Brotherhood of Steel and the Followers of the Apocalypse, who hope to use the knowledge of the past to prevent new conflicts in the future (Either by collecting and guarding advanced technology, or by spreading knowledge and education). In Fallout 2, the game introduced the New California Republic, the proclaimed successor to the old United States, and the Enclave, the actual pre-War American government. Set 80 years after the first game, Fallout 2 furthered the concept of post-war rebuilding, as the makeshift bottlecap currency in the original Fallout was exchanged for NCR dollars, and major quests dealt with the NCR's expansion into neighboring regions as it sought to spread democracy across California, all while haunted by the lurking specter of the resurgent Enclave. And, of course, New Vegas deals with the idea of resurgent civilizations, brought into conflict between differing ideologies of the best way to build a new nation-under Democracy, Fascism, or Authoritarianism, each one flavored by the history and ideals of the Old World. Fallout 3 and 4 rehash a lot of the imagery and ideas from the old games, but without really understanding what those games were really about. There's no grand statements about the future or nature of humanity, or indeed any real stated impact on the player character's influence on the wasteland in the decades to come-everything is about a singular, immediate conflict, be it the fight over the water purifier in 3 or the Institute's Synth-o-rama in 4. The actual scope of the games feel much smaller as a result, and the player character's actions have far less tangible impact. They're still fun games, but they are very far from what the old Fallouts (plus New Vegas) used to be.
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Jul 4, 2017 18:02
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Is FO3 really set after 1 and 2? It reaaaaaally seems like it takes place a lot closer to when the bombs fell.
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Jul 4, 2017 18:09
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The really weird thing about the water purifier in Fallout 3 is that like, nobody besides the bums sitting around you can give water to for karma seem to have any problems staying hydrated.food court bailiff posted:Is FO3 really set after 1 and 2? It reaaaaaally seems like it takes place a lot closer to when the bombs fell.
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Jul 4, 2017 18:17
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Father Wendigo posted:It'd be nice to stumble across one of the few intelligent Super Mutants left over from the Master's crusade in FO1, just drifting back and forth coast to coast looking for purpose and ball gags. That, or the FEV causing a gradual increase in intelligence to one of the 3(?) different strains of muties, effectively making them more than just renamed orcs with guns and explosives. The Mariposa mutants (the west coast ones) sort of have that going for them, but I'll be surprised if we see any follow-up on that after NV. food court bailiff posted:Is FO3 really set after 1 and 2? It reaaaaaally seems like it takes place a lot closer to when the bombs fell. haha nope, Fallout 1 starts in 2161, Fallout 2 starts in 2241, Fallout 3 starts in 2277, New Vegas starts in 2281, Fallout 4 starts in 2287. Also I just realized I somehow flipped the plots for Fallout 1 and 2 before 
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Jul 4, 2017 18:18
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food court bailiff posted:Is FO3 really set after 1 and 2? It reaaaaaally seems like it takes place a lot closer to when the bombs fell. 2277, exactly two hundred years after the bombs fell. The original Fallout is set in 2161, 84 years after the Great War, and Fallout 2 is set in 2241, 80 years after that. Very little about Fallout 3 actually makes sense. e:f;b
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Jul 4, 2017 18:18
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food court bailiff posted:Is FO3 really set after 1 and 2? It reaaaaaally seems like it takes place a lot closer to when the bombs fell. The war happens pretty much entirely on October 23, 2077. Then FO1 takes place in 2161, FO2 is 2241, FO3 is 2277, New Vegas is 2281, and FO4 is 2287. Also, according to the timeline (and FO3 propaganda) the US will not be habitable until 2377. e: wow, hella beaten.
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Jul 4, 2017 18:23
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas are all about the rebuilding of the world in the aftermath of the apocalypse. In the first game, the central conflict revolves around the Master, who plans to forcibly mutate the denizens of the Vaults into a new race of strong, intelligent, and powerful beings-"The next stage in human evolution"-and then take over the world, eradicating war, hunger, and disease. The game also features locations like Junktown, Shady Sands, and the Hub, which are towns built up after the apocalypse where people are simply doing their best to survive, and factions like the Brotherhood of Steel and the Followers of the Apocalypse, who hope to use the knowledge of the past to prevent new conflicts in the future (Either by collecting and guarding advanced technology, or by spreading knowledge and education). Fallout 1 is not about the rebuilding of the world (though that has happened since the world went boom), it is about emerging from isolation and seeing what's become of it while you are on a (lovely, timed) mission. Fallout 3 does exactly the same thing and is a reboot of 1, complete with water plot, and is about as good as 1, with the lovely main quest's timer replaced with a lovely ending to the main quest. Fallout 2 introduces governments with varying claims to continuity with the old world. Fallout 4 does the same thing. New Vegas is its own thing and I do not understand why people like it so much more than the other ones. Aside from having a better-thought-out "main plot" and ending than the rest of them, it seems about the same to me. The main thing I always appreciate is that it's a "smaller" story not about Saving The Entire World.
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Jul 4, 2017 18:33
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homullus posted:New Vegas is its own thing and I do not understand why people like it so much more than the other ones. Aside from having a better-thought-out "main plot" and ending than the rest of them, it seems about the same to me. The main thing I always appreciate is that it's a "smaller" story not about Saving The Entire World. I think the smaller story works to its benefit, since it makes this particular slice of the setting feel more plausible and coherent in a way. Still, the story gets a bit more praise than it deserves, given that in the end you basically get to choose between USA v2.0, rear end in a top hat Capitalist and Literally Hitler. The factions in FO4 were a lot better, insofar as they had some ideological points to make but were all fundamentally flawed in some way.
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Jul 4, 2017 19:15
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Comrade Koba posted:The factions in FO4 were a lot better, insofar as they had some ideological points to make but were all fundamentally flawed in some way.  Okay, this I just have to disagree with. What ideological points were the Institute making? What did the Minutemen do other than exist?
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Jul 4, 2017 20:08
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The thing that annoyed me about fo4 is that there was no way to reconcile the railroad and the brotherhood, because the brotherhood was super bull headed about synths. The institute were 100% the problem and absent of them, synths were just people with metal in them, but nope, allying with one faction means you need to obliterate the other two off the face of the earth with nuclear fire because the plot won't advance any other way.
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Jul 4, 2017 20:25
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Comrade Koba posted:I think the smaller story works to its benefit, since it makes this particular slice of the setting feel more plausible and coherent in a way. Still, the story gets a bit more praise than it deserves, given that in the end you basically get to choose between USA v2.0, rear end in a top hat Capitalist and Literally Hitler. I think you're forgetting the best option.
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Jul 4, 2017 22:04
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
I interpreted their main point as being that the benefits of science and technology, carefully applied, will eventually lead to the betterment of humanity. At least that seems to be what they themselves believe. I should've clarified I don't count the Minutemen as a proper faction, since they lack any conviction or agency and literally just go along with whatever the player does. Serf posted:I think you're forgetting the best option. Well, yeah, killing everyone and taking their stuff is always the best option in any Fallout game. 
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Jul 4, 2017 22:30
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Comrade Koba posted:I interpreted their main point as being that the benefits of science and technology, carefully applied, will eventually lead to the betterment of humanity. At least that seems to be what they themselves believe. Yes, but their definition of "humanity" starts and ends with them and them alone.
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Jul 4, 2017 22:34
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Kurieg posted:Yes, but their definition of "humanity" starts and ends with them and them alone. As I said, fundamentally flawed.
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Jul 4, 2017 22:39
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I like to note that FO4 somehow included iradiated desert themed cranberry bogs in an open world where it rains. Often.
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Jul 4, 2017 23:26
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I'm playing the Last of Us and that starts in post-apocalyptic Boston and it's so much prettier looking to see all the wildlife reclaiming everything than in Fallout 4 where everything is a turd-colored brown.
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Jul 4, 2017 23:33
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SunAndSpring posted:I'm playing the Last of Us and that starts in post-apocalyptic Boston and it's so much prettier looking to see all the wildlife reclaiming everything than in Fallout 4 where everything is a turd-colored brown. Enslaved: Odyssey to the West does this too, it's far post-apocalyptic where nature is retaking the ruins of the previous civilization and it's honestly pretty gorgeous in places. Irrespective of their stories and the quality thereof, I've always found the modern first-person Fallout games to be fantastically ugly.
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Jul 4, 2017 23:52
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Everybody knows the post-apocalypse looks like Mad Max.
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Jul 5, 2017 00:50
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Bongo Bill posted:Everybody knows the post-apocalypse looks like Mad Max. Ironically the recent Mad Max video game looks far prettier than the contemporary Fallouts despite taking place entirely within different variations of sandy desert wasteland, in large part because they had some stellar art direction and managed to infuse a lot of the game's regions with different varieties and styles of sandy desert wastelands which added a lot more visual diversity than you'd expect.
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Jul 5, 2017 01:12
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Speaking of Post Apocalyptic Games. Horizon: Zero Dawn. It''s got the nature reclaiming the works of man thing, but still has remnants of the apocalypse with the robots all over the place. The robots are all styled after animals though, so they still fit in a more organic way and more importantly their forms give you clues on how to fight them. Like there's a giant crab robot and you need to take out its 'claws' or else you can't attack it from the front. Enemies have canisters on their bodies filled with different elemental fuels, at first just fire but there's also cryogenic and electric fluids. And the art direction and design is just unimaginably gorgeous, it's the prettiest looking game I've ever encountered on PS4.
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Jul 5, 2017 01:41
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Liquid Communism posted:I like to note that FO4 somehow included iradiated desert themed cranberry bogs in an open world where it rains. Often. Fallout 4, like Fallout 3 before it, is really improved with weather and vegetation mods. Comrade Koba posted:I interpreted their main point as being that the benefits of science and technology, carefully applied, will eventually lead to the betterment of humanity. At least that seems to be what they themselves believe. But "Science is good" isn't an ideology, and there's nothing to their society but "Science is good". There's certainly directions you can take "a completely unethical science and research based society" (The Think Tank from New Vegas is a closely related example), but aside from vague platitudes there's no real vision for the future aside from a focus on the immidiete conflict of destroying the Brotherhood and the Railroad. Compare and contrast this to New Vegas, where each of the factions has a distinct structure, ideology, and plan for the future-the NCR is an expansionist and imperialist power, but it's a democracy, and its citizens enjoy greater freedoms and access to resources than anywhere else in the country. Caesar's Legion is a brutal slaving empire, led by a calculating student of history who saw the NCR's flaws, and believes the only path forward is to subjugate the NCR under the Legion and integrate these civilizations into a new Roman Empire. And, of course, Mr. House is a cold, calculating businessman, a literal icon of the pre-war era, a crossover of Charles Foster Kane and Howard Hughes who fervently believes in the power of his own intellect and his inherent right to rule over New Vegas and its environs-of which he has a legitimate claim, being the one responsible for the salvation of Vegas itself. I mean, the New Vegas thread has argued these factions back and forth for years, and inherently there's no right answer except for what the player himself decides. Fallout 4's factions, by contrast, are much smaller in scale and in ideological scope, and don't really offer any kind of tangible future for the Commonwealth, being wholly focuses on the Synth problem (Which inherently is a very dumb conflict). I mean, I like Fallout 4, and I still play it every so often, but it's so... dumb. At least Far Harbor was cool.
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Jul 5, 2017 02:33
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A big issue with both New Vegas is that they wanted to have a pure bad guy faction, but also wanted to have moral ambiguity where none of the factions were really good guys. So you get a bunch of bits where they try to go "But who's to say the NCR or the Brotherhood are really better than the Legion?" This is similar to the Coalition apologia in RIFTS, where they forget how horribly evil they made that faction, to the point where the NCR could literally kick puppies off the top of Hoover Dam and still come off as the nicer guys. It's still a much better story than Fallout 3 or 4, but it's not without its issues.
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Jul 5, 2017 02:37
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At some point, every SA thread will be about Fallout.
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Jul 5, 2017 02:43
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
What difference does it make whether they have a capital-I-ideology? Their "real vision for the future" is very clear: synthetic life, to restore the world that was lost, and to overwrite the societies that have taken root above ground. They are doing what they think is right. Factions need only motivations to be good, not ideologies.
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Jul 5, 2017 02:48
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Serf posted:I think you're forgetting the best option. Yeah, he hasn't listed Caesar and his promise to bring stability and peace to the Mojave
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Jul 5, 2017 02:50
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JackMann posted:A big issue with both New Vegas is that they wanted to have a pure bad guy faction, but also wanted to have moral ambiguity where none of the factions were really good guys. So you get a bunch of bits where they try to go "But who's to say the NCR or the Brotherhood are really better than the Legion?" This is similar to the Coalition apologia in RIFTS, where they forget how horribly evil they made that faction, to the point where the NCR could literally kick puppies off the top of Hoover Dam and still come off as the nicer guys. That's not really what they were going for, though. New Vegas isn't about good versus evil, or grey versus grey. It's about the clash of two civilizations, with two wild cards (House and the Courier) mixed in. The NCR has shades of grey not because Obsidian was deliberately trying to make the argument that the Legion was a moral equivalent, but because they wanted to create a faction with good ideals that was realistically dragged down by inequality and rampant expansionism, much like the United States the NCR deliberately emulated. Caesar's Legion is basically evil because, historically, slave armies commanded by absolute dictators who form a personality cult around themselves don't exactly adhere to the codes of the Geneva Conventions. Like all good RPGs, the choices New Vegas offers aren't intended to be moral decisions for the player, but moral decisions for their character. Josh Sawyer himself said that he didn't intend for many people to personally be swayed by Caesar's arguments, or for anyone to find the Legion to be the moral equivalent of House or the NCR-but they're fleshed out enough so that certain Couriers who aren't insane baby-kicking shitheads can find reasons to back them other than deliberately taking all the bad-karma options. Maybe they're a cold-blooded mercenary who thinks Caesar's Legion offers the best chance for steady work and prefers pay in precious metals (Which is a thing in-game, by the way). Maybe they're disillusioned with the NCR and are convinced by Caesar's argument that the only way to save the NCR is to destroy it. Maybe they're an NCR patriot who hates Kimball, and thinks working with Caesar is the only way to curb the NCR's expansionism. In the end, it all comes down to what the player's character believes is the right option, and there's plenty of reasoning provided in the game to provide for a number of different interpretations. There are certainly a lot of points where New Vegas falls flat, but when you dig down you can tell they put a lot of work and effort into the portrayal of each faction, and it shows. Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 02:57
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Bongo Bill posted:Everybody knows the post-apocalypse looks like Mad Max. Did you play the recent Mad Max game? It looks like that, but actually justifies why it does so much better than Fallout's east coast forays that it's ridiculous. Running 90 miles an hour in a beat to poo poo hot rod down a sandy plain that used to be the shallows off Australia is amazing.
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Jul 5, 2017 03:41
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Acebuckeye13 posted:There are certainly a lot of points where New Vegas falls flat, but when you dig down you can tell they put a lot of work and effort into the portrayal of each faction, and it shows.
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Jul 5, 2017 03:44
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Dr. Quarex posted:Wrong, there is no way to lead the Powder Gangers to supremacy Well, yeah, they suck. They're doomed to fail no matter what because they're a bunch of random convicts who found dynamite and decided "WE RUN BARTERTOWN NOW" despite everyone else protesting to the contrary and the actual major players having them way outnumbered and outgunned. e: seriously, it makes perfect sense that a faction you can almost completely depopulate at level 1 straight out of Goodsprings ain't exactly hot poo poo.
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Jul 5, 2017 03:51
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Dr. Quarex posted:Wrong, there is no way to lead the Powder Gangers to supremacy Go Independent Vegas, meet the Vault 19 Powder Gangers, complete the quest for the NCRCF Gangers. The Powder Gangers become a scourge on the Mojave for years to come 
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Jul 5, 2017 03:57
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