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I think Dead Reckoning would have a point if there was only one drug company and California had to make sure the deal was made with them. The company could tell California to gently caress off, and the state would be screwed. But, that is not the world we live in and there is more than one drug company, so there will always be someone wanting to cut a deal.
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Jun 28, 2017 18:08
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...have you never heard of a patent or something
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Jun 28, 2017 18:12
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Mordiceius posted:I think Dead Reckoning would have a point if there was only one drug company and California had to make sure the deal was made with them. The company could tell California to gently caress off, and the state would be screwed. But, that is not the world we live in and there is more than one drug company, so there will always be someone wanting to cut a deal. Yes, because the FREE MARKET will fix all of the problems when it comes to health care. If California wants to fix this problem they need to make a state owned pharmacy distribution system so that the state of California becomes a monopsony to negotiate with PhRMA. Anything else is just a half assed attempt that will probably lead to failure.
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Jun 28, 2017 18:13
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I'm for it. We can nationalize (state-ize?) PG&E while we're at it.
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Jun 28, 2017 18:17
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The Wiggly Wizard posted:I'm for it. We can nationalize (state-ize?) PG&E while we're at it. this but also SCE
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Jun 28, 2017 18:19
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karthun posted:If California wants to fix this problem they need to make a state owned pharmacy distribution system so that the state of California becomes a monopsony to negotiate with PhRMA. Anything else is just a half assed attempt that will probably lead to failure. There seems to be a lot of Californian chauvinism going on when thinking about potential single-payer. "We're California! We're so big and important that no drug company would dare turn us down!" I hate to break it to you, but drug companies can and do decline to sell their drugs at the rate that single-payer plans are willing to pay. There are certain drugs/treatments that you just aren't able to get in certain countries (unless you're willing to go private and pay out of pocket). That's one of the trade-offs of a single-payer system. So the arguments should be about if this trade-off is worthwhile, not trying to argue that it won't exist in California (unlike every other single-payer system in the world).
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Jun 28, 2017 18:35
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Instant Sunrise posted:If you're Merck, are you really going to let a customer with 38 million patients walk away from the table to switch to a different medication that Phizer offers just because you're too intractable about prices? Mordiceius posted:I think Dead Reckoning would have a point if there was only one drug company and California had to make sure the deal was made with them. The company could tell California to gently caress off, and the state would be screwed. But, that is not the world we live in and there is more than one drug company, so there will always be someone wanting to cut a deal. Instant Sunrise posted:Yeah the amount per patient is in all likelihood going to be lower, but you're still dealing with losing 40 million customers at once.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:54
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LanceHunter posted:There are certain drugs/treatments that you just aren't able to get in certain countries (unless you're willing to go private and pay out of pocket). That's one of the trade-offs of a single-payer system. So the arguments should be about if this trade-off is worthwhile, not trying to argue that it won't exist in California (unlike every other single-payer system in the world). I've never heard of these, so if we're going to argue about the trade-off, could you give an example of what would be traded off: a drug or treatment not covered by a single-payer system?
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Jun 28, 2017 19:56
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karthun posted:Yes, because the FREE MARKET will fix all of the problems when it comes to health care. Nationalize (Statize? Stationize? Stateez?) the Pharma industry
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Jun 28, 2017 20:18
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The Glumslinger posted:Nationalize (Statize? Stationize? Stateez?) the Pharma industry
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Jun 28, 2017 20:41
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Dead Reckoning posted:And now we're back at "nation states have options for cost control that California does not." I almost wish we could look into a parallel dimension where the California bill moved ahead just so we could see how the federal government twists the commerce clause to prevent CA's system. That poor clause resembles a pretzel after all these years.
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Jun 28, 2017 20:50
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Lol Rendon's voice mail for SB562 is now full I called back to speak to staff and they put me on hold for a minute but I got through
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Jun 28, 2017 20:57
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Sundae posted:we could see how the federal government twists the commerce clause to prevent CA's system. part of republicans healthcare plan is to force insurance to be sold across state lines. its not clear if that would have to apply to CA'S SP system but lol you can bet like hell they would try
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Jun 28, 2017 21:05
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Doc Hawkins posted:I've never heard of these, so if we're going to argue about the trade-off, could you give an example of what would be traded off: a drug or treatment not covered by a single-payer system? There are examples of this in the UK all the time. (Here's another.) Ultimately, there has to be a cost/benefit analysis done and some treatments just don't make the cut. It's still better than a lot of what we have now, but it seems like a lot of people seem to think that single-payer is some perfect solution, not recognizing that it definitely has its own problems.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:05
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You misunderstand, the progressive agenda in California cannot fail, it can only be failed.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:09
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The Glumslinger posted:Nationalize (Statize? Stationize? Stateez?) the Pharma industry You already have the State of California doing a massive amount of biomed research at state universities and massive number of patents that are created only to be sold off to Pharma for massive amounts of money. California could just decide to keep and develop its state owned assets rather then selling them to the highest bidder. Forget about some cocked up attempt of nationalization of a patent that the State of California sold off. Not to mention that 80% of all medication is out of patent generics. There is no reason to nationalize a generic medication, just make the drat pill. It isn't quite a sexy as burn PhARMA to the ground but its the State of California that wants to have its cake and eat it too, they want a billion dollars cash for the patent of a drug which will sell 100,000 pills in a year and are surprised when the pills cost 1,000 each for 10 years. If California were to instead put the pill into production at a state owned generic pill factory then it would cost $0.50 per pill. But then you don't get to have the billion USD of deficit reduction to continue to pay for the stupidity that is California tax law.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:17
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LanceHunter posted:There are examples of this in the UK all the time. (Here's another.) Ultimately, there has to be a cost/benefit analysis done and some treatments just don't make the cut. It's still better than a lot of what we have now, but it seems like a lot of people seem to think that single-payer is some perfect solution, not recognizing that it definitely has its own problems. That seems like the same decisions that insurance companies are making now, but without their profit motives. It's still people not getting the treatment they need, just less of it than we have now.
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Jun 28, 2017 21:53
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Assembly Speaker Rendon's social media staff really hasn't caught on that trying to post articles defending his actions on Facebook is just giving people more posts to comment on. Anyway, just called, pressed 3, and said, "This is urgent. Move the bill forward and amend it."
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Jun 28, 2017 23:29
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snyprmag posted:That seems like the same decisions that insurance companies are making now, but without their profit motives. It's still people not getting the treatment they need, just less of it than we have now. I think you'll find that the many many more people denied treatment by private insurance are just lazy.
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Jun 29, 2017 00:26
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Dead Reckoning posted:You misunderstand, the progressive agenda in California cannot fail, it can only be failed. I'd don't know about you, but I'd rather that single payer in CA fail because it gets tried but ultimately proves unworkable than because it was procedurally ratfucked by a single assemblyman.
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Jun 29, 2017 01:32
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I'd don't know about you, but I'd rather that single payer in CA fail because it gets tried but ultimately proves unworkable than because it was procedurally ratfucked by a single assemblyman. To be fair, it's likely to be procedurally ratfucked by some other politician instead. The one strong argument Dead Reckoning has is that we are not a sovereign country and anyone can simply stick their boot up our rear end and then blame it on us. That's politics. Not that that means we shouldn't do it, of course. Poor optics are worth potentially preserving and extending health coverage to millions of people. DR simply doesn't understand trying and failing is better than not trying, despite the thousands of aphorisms designed to help him learn it.
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Jun 29, 2017 16:00
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Here is your semi-regular reminder that California is objectively The Best State.vox posted:California decided it was tired of women bleeding to death in childbirth  Read the whole article, etc.
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Jun 29, 2017 16:27
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Lemming posted:Lol Rendon's voice mail for SB562 is now full I called Harris and Feinstein. For shits and giggles I called Pelosi, too, since she's my house rep (and the only one that picked up). The person on the other side was really not very pleasant. Seemed to be in a great hurry to end the call. Me: "Can Rep Pelosi offer and social pressure or public comments to move the bill forward?" Office: "It's a Senate Bill, not a house bill." Me: "I'm aware. I'm not asking for a vote on it, I'm asking for her help in pressuring Rendon." Office: "It's Rep Pelosi's policy not to interfere in Senate issues." Me: "Could I get at least a comment on whether or not it's a bad thing?" Office: "All of Rep Pelosi's stances are on her website." Me: "Is this block a good thing?" Office: "I cannot speak for Rep Pelosi." Me:  "Okay. Thanks for your time."
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Jun 30, 2017 16:24
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"If you can't speak for her why do you answer her phone? Give me the # for her direct line"
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Jun 30, 2017 16:27
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"You work for her. Can you ask her, please? I will be calling again until you are able to give me an answer."
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Jun 30, 2017 16:31
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Are we mixing up state representatives with US reps?
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Jun 30, 2017 16:33
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Possible they are calling about the Death Bill in the Senate right now and not 562.
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Jun 30, 2017 16:51
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CopperHound posted:Are we mixing up state representatives with US reps? Definitely distinct. I don't fault them for being particular. I still would like her to call him out on Twitter or _something_.
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Jun 30, 2017 20:25
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I guess The Intercept is now on the side of the neoliberals. 2017, eh? https://theintercept.com/2017/06/30/california-single-payer-organizers-are-deceiving-their-supporters-its-time-to-stop/
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Jul 1, 2017 10:05
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So the bill is dead yes?
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Jul 1, 2017 16:37
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Gen. Ripper posted:I guess The Intercept is now on the side of the neoliberals. 2017, eh? Put up a prop that makes a single payer tax immune to 98 and also not touchable for any reason other than healthcare. Two birds with one stone to make it pretty possible and also shut down the "BUT THEM STATE GUYS DON'T KNOW HOW TO NOT TOUCH MONEY."
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Jul 1, 2017 17:33
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Woof Blitzer posted:So the bill is dead yes? It's merely sleeping forever, silly voter. Also shut the gently caress up. Gen. Ripper posted:I guess The Intercept is now on the side of the neoliberals. 2017, eh? A political campaign exaggerated something! We need to stop trying to give people healthcare.
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Jul 1, 2017 18:14
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Woof Blitzer posted:So the bill is dead yes? Serious question: I thought we had until the 13th to call about it, no? Is it actually dead? 
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Jul 2, 2017 00:47
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Dead Reckoning posted:
Expand. You appear to be hand waving it away. What can Canada do? Surely pharma can skull gently caress Canadians to ensure Germany pays up.
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Jul 2, 2017 04:03
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Pharmaceutical companies would absolutely blink first, the idea that they could deny 40 million people drugs at profitable prices because they want to squeeze even more profit out of the corpses, and survive the PR backlash is ludicrous. They would have no choice but to suck it up, just like they do for Medicaid and the VA, and they know it. There's a reason they spent $100 million to defeat the initiative and why they're always buying legislators to make sure Medicare is banned from negotiating drug prices.
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Jul 2, 2017 04:20
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Jo posted:Serious question: I thought we had until the 13th to call about it, no? Is it actually dead? Rendon can move it to committee at any time, he just won't because a ballot measure means the legislature can wipe their hands of it
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Jul 2, 2017 04:45
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Rendon can move it to committee at any time, he just won't because a ballot measure means the legislature can wipe their hands of it
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Jul 3, 2017 00:40
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Cicero posted:Is a proposition on the table? And if it isn't, how do we get it on there?
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Jul 3, 2017 01:07
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No, don't
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Jul 3, 2017 02:40
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I'd don't know about you, but I'd rather that single payer in CA fail because it gets tried but ultimately proves unworkable than because it was procedurally ratfucked by a single assemblyman. Cup Runneth Over posted:Not that that means we shouldn't do it, of course. Poor optics are worth potentially preserving and extending health coverage to millions of people. DR simply doesn't understand trying and failing is better than not trying, despite the thousands of aphorisms designed to help him learn it. Boot and Rally posted:Expand. You appear to be hand waving it away. What can Canada do? Surely pharma can skull gently caress Canadians to ensure Germany pays up.
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Jul 4, 2017 21:22
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