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Piriwi posted:Wasn't it hinted at that the Skull Knight turned into a spectral being by excessive use of the berserker armor? Pretty sure it was explicitly stated by the old witch matriarch, wasn't it?
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Jul 5, 2017 11:29
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Genocyber posted:It's incredibly questionable whether "being outside of fate" is even really a thing given Guts' actions ultimately led to Griffith's physical rebirth. Through the freak accident of actually surviving as a baby born from a corpse in the middle of no where, causality has done its damnedest to kill Guts off once and for all but he JUST WON'T DIE. His chance encounter and use by Griffith was Causality utilizing him and trying to find a purpose but even then, he won't go down after getting a destiny of branded. Like Skull said, he still can be caught up in the whirlpools and current of causality like anyone else, but his interactions can make the plan possibly go completely off script even in the slightest, but most significant way.
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Jul 5, 2017 12:52
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Piriwi posted:Wasn't it hinted at that the Skull Knight turned into a spectral being by excessive use of the berserker armor? It could just be that he killed demons a lot. Like how Guts' sword has spectral presence because he's used it to kill so many apostles and ghosts. But yeah, given that the berserker armor works by using any means to hold your body together, I could see it eventually turning you into some weird murder-revenant.
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Jul 5, 2017 16:26
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Begemot posted:It could just be that he killed demons a lot. Like how Guts' sword has spectral presence because he's used it to kill so many apostles and ghosts. It did eventually kill its previous owner, so I wouldn't put it past the Witch of the Woods to essentially bound his od/spirit to a similar kind of armor that became Skull Knight. Especially since according to her, death really isn't that big of a thing for magic users. So he's probably a monster killing ghost.
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Jul 5, 2017 16:29
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But does anyone know the endgame here? It seems like the best possible outcome is Casca gets her mind back, the world stays overrun by unholy monsters, and the most a human or "good" person can hope for is a moment of peace before being devoured (and if they're a woman, managing to not get raped or sexually assaulted first). Is the idea that Guts lives outside fate/causality and will undo the "Age Of Darkness" somehow? Because it seems like there's no supernatural force that could be backing the "good guys" that's on the level of the power of the God Hand, much less the "Idea of Evil" creature. I know unrelenting bleakness, excessive violence, and dick monsters seem to be like Berserk's thing, but jeez. Is Miura's plan is to indefinitely continue the ultra-violent DBZ/Naruto-style plotline of (A) encountering demonic entity, (B) enduring horrible torture, (C) eventually overcoming it?
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Jul 5, 2017 17:27
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There's lots of ways the story could go at this point. They could leave Elfhelm soon on the urging of a vengeful Casca. They could stay there to recover and have Schierke and Farnese study magic. Griffith could send apostles to attack Elfhelm, or one of the other God Hand could go there personally. Further on, I think the group's next goal will be reversing the world transformation. They're in exactly the right place to learn about whatever high magic fantasy nonsense they'd need to do to accomplish that. But Griffith also needs to have some comeuppance at some point. Rickert will probably be involved in that too, so his party has to meet up with Guts'.... There's a lot of story left to go. We're nowhere near the end.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:38
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ATP5G1 posted:But does anyone know the endgame here? It seems like the best possible outcome is Casca gets her mind back, the world stays overrun by unholy monsters, and the most a human or "good" person can hope for is a moment of peace before being devoured (and if they're a woman, managing to not get raped or sexually assaulted first). Is the idea that Guts lives outside fate/causality and will undo the "Age Of Darkness" somehow? Because it seems like there's no supernatural force that could be backing the "good guys" that's on the level of the power of the God Hand, much less the "Idea of Evil" creature. I know unrelenting bleakness, excessive violence, and dick monsters seem to be like Berserk's thing, but jeez. Is Miura's plan is to indefinitely continue the ultra-violent DBZ/Naruto-style plotline of (A) encountering demonic entity, (B) enduring horrible torture, (C) eventually overcoming it? The endgame is Guts kills Griffith. That's where it HAS to end. Thing is, I dunno if Miura is willing to end it before he dies. But if you think the good guys have no power you don't know my man skull knight or guts. They're not god hand but they may as well be the good equivalent. The real fun part of Berserk though is that if Guts did kill Griffith now, would it be a good thing?
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Jul 5, 2017 17:48
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As far as Rickert is concerned, I have this nagging feeling that this plot thread of "time flows differently on Elfheim" is going to result in just enough more time passing in the outside world that Rickert will now be at least as old as Guts.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:08
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Zaphod42 posted:
Yeah, Miura has been setting this up for a long time. Griffith has accomplished a ton of unambiguously good things since coming back. Setting up a safe haven for humans, helping apostles overcome their savage nature, and so on. Heck, most of the Neo Band of the Hawk are just as heroic as the original one was. But does that outweigh the fact that it's all built on a literal ocean of blood and horrific betrayal?
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Jul 5, 2017 18:16
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Begemot posted:Yeah, Miura has been setting this up for a long time. Griffith has accomplished a ton of unambiguously good things since coming back. Setting up a safe haven for humans, helping apostles overcome their savage nature, and so on. Heck, most of the Neo Band of the Hawk are just as heroic as the original one was. Also, he's turned the world into (even more of) a monster-riddled hellscape, with his own city as the only safe refuge. I reckon it's only a matter of time before we start seeing the horrific downsides to life in Falconia.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:27
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The world will get worse once Falconia isn't enough for Griffith. Maybe another slight from Guts or a rejection from able minded Casca.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:33
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Guts is going to kill Griffith and ruin Falconia without being able to fix the world. He and Skully can probably kill the whole Godhand but it's not clear to me that any of the magic we have seen can actually restore the divide between the astral and normal worlds. Maybe the Flowerstorm King could do it if she wanted to idk. But I have a strong suspicion that Guts will succeed in getting his revenge only to be remembered forever as an evil bastard who murdered the messiah and ruined everything.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:50
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skasion posted:Guts is going to kill Griffith and ruin Falconia without being able to fix the world. He and Skully can probably kill the whole Godhand but it's not clear to me that any of the magic we have seen can actually restore the divide between the astral and normal worlds. Maybe the Flowerstorm King could do it if she wanted to idk. But I have a strong suspicion that Guts will succeed in getting his revenge only to be remembered forever as an evil bastard who murdered the messiah and ruined everything. Yeah that's basically what I'm thinking.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:53
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Begemot posted:Yeah, Miura has been setting this up for a long time. Griffith has accomplished a ton of unambiguously good things since coming back. Setting up a safe haven for humans, helping apostles overcome their savage nature, and so on. Heck, most of the Neo Band of the Hawk are just as heroic as the original one was. Uh...what? He set up a safe haven for humans yes, but that only came about by causing the literal destruction of the entire rest of the world. Not close to Falconia? To bad bub, you're getting gored by a unicorn. He hasn't helped any of the apostles overcome their savage nature, he's just ordering them not to kill humans (publicly); they're still just as vicious as we're shown when Sonia and Mule enter the demon's camp without an escort. And none of that "good" has been for the purpose of helping others, it's all aimed towards Griffith making his own fantasy kingdom. What if he gets bored of it all: what happens then? Probably nothing good for the humans under his charge.
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Jul 5, 2017 19:09
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Genocyber posted:Uh...what? He set up a safe haven for humans yes, but that only came about by causing the literal destruction of the entire rest of the world. Not close to Falconia? To bad bub, you're getting gored by a unicorn. He hasn't helped any of the apostles overcome their savage nature, he's just ordering them not to kill humans (publicly); they're still just as vicious as we're shown when Sonia and Mule enter the demon's camp without an escort. And none of that "good" has been for the purpose of helping others, it's all aimed towards Griffith making his own fantasy kingdom. What if he gets bored of it all: what happens then? Probably nothing good for the humans under his charge. That's basically what Begemot just said. Its all golden right now and everybody's loving it (inside Falconia anyways, like you said). But it does seem like it won't last forever, the sinister underside has to come to light or Griffith has to become more ambitious or something. But we dunno. What if Guts gets his revenge before the turn? What if Griffith finds himself content when he's actually accomplished his great dream?  Miura finds ways to surprise me.
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Jul 5, 2017 19:14
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Griffith is like a doctor selling a cure for the plague he unleashed.
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Jul 5, 2017 19:15
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skasion posted:Guts is going to kill Griffith and ruin Falconia without being able to fix the world. He and Skully can probably kill the whole Godhand but it's not clear to me that any of the magic we have seen can actually restore the divide between the astral and normal worlds. Maybe the Flowerstorm King could do it if she wanted to idk. But I have a strong suspicion that Guts will succeed in getting his revenge only to be remembered forever as an evil bastard who murdered the messiah and ruined everything. Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but just as Griffith is said to be the "white hawk(?)" that brings the new dawn, the messiah, Guts is the "black hawk", the hawk of darkness that brings destruction right? I don't know about killing Griffith, but i do believe Guts and co. will gently caress up royally at some point in the future.
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Jul 5, 2017 19:25
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Someone please tell me what order to watch Berserk anime series/movies. I've read the manga past flat-face floor-slamming rapepriest, but Guts did not find the berserker armor yet (I don't think). I saw the original tv series with the goofy outtakes in the credits. Is the movie trilogy any good? Is any of the other series any good?
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Jul 5, 2017 19:26
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here's the correct order: None of them
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Jul 5, 2017 19:27
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No No Read the manga
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Jul 5, 2017 19:27
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I think Guts will have to choose between revenge and the lives of his friends, perhaps even as his own sacrifice to a behelit.Rodyle posted:The fusion depth has to be fairly significant, elsewise the Godhand wouldn't be fully manifested in the real world. I don't think they are, only Griffith because he merged with the egg apostle/the baby. There's a page after the merge with some of the Godhand in the real world but they seem to still be using proxy bodies(the short fat one is manifested in a swarm of rats for example).
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Jul 5, 2017 19:28
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Personal_Nirvana posted:Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but just as Griffith is said to be the "white hawk(?)" that brings the new dawn, the messiah, Guts is the "black hawk", the hawk of darkness that brings destruction right? I'm assuming, given who's running Griffith's PR, that Guts'll be responsible for some sort of cleansing destruction, stripping away false comforts and securities and giving people room to grow and find their own strength. You know, like he usually does to the surviving supporting cast at the end of an arc.
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Jul 5, 2017 19:29
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Well I am still reading the manga, but I played the vidya game recently and the cutscenes were kind of cool. Come to find out they are directly from the movie.
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Jul 5, 2017 19:30
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The three movies have some okay bits if you're desperate for an animated version but they're terribly paced and have some real bad CGI. The recent anime series is utter trash that only idiots would subject themselves to.
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Jul 5, 2017 19:32
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drat, that sucks to hear. I was kind of impressed by some of the lines being lifted right from the manga in the cutscenes. Not sure why, maybe because the world is full of bad adaptations.
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Jul 5, 2017 19:38
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Begemot posted:There's lots of ways the story could go at this point. They could leave Elfhelm soon on the urging of a vengeful Casca. They could stay there to recover and have Schierke and Farnese study magic. Griffith could send apostles to attack Elfhelm, or one of the other God Hand could go there personally. This is my point, though--there's 300+ chapters and there's been no indication this is possible. If they aren't given some hope of this possibility in Elfheim or somewhere else soon, then everything else is incidental. You kill Griffith and the world is still a hellscape, y'know? Like, Guts & Co have their own little quests going on but it doesn't change the fact that everything else keeps getting worse. That's why I was wondering about the endgame. Any endgame doesn't involve some sort of reverse world-transformation basically has the overall story-arc of "petty revenge but everything is poo poo forever". Which isn't a bad thing when done right, but usually to be done right it's handled a bit more elegantly so it doesn't come off as cynicism of the teenager-whining variety. Really, when I posted the question I was sort of hoping there were plot details I was missing. 
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Jul 5, 2017 19:44
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Well, the thing is, after Casca is healed (or not) they can just ask the Flower King about reversing the world transformation. Guts and co are in the only place in the whole world where they could get an answer to that. The nature of magic and the world transformation are still very mysterious. Maybe killing Griffith will just fix everything. Maybe they need to do something else with Skellington's crazy behelit sword. Maybe they need to gather sacred relics of the four elements and cast a big spell. It could be anything!
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Jul 5, 2017 19:57
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Personal_Nirvana posted:Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but just as Griffith is said to be the "white hawk(?)" that brings the new dawn, the messiah, Guts is the "black hawk", the hawk of darkness that brings destruction right? You know, reminds me of the endings of Dark Souls, which are obviously very Berserk inspired. You can light the flame and keep the cycle going (Griffith ending) or you can snuff it out and end the cycle and usher in an age of darkness and uncertainty (Guts ending) I always liked the ambiguity of Dark Souls endings, its not real clear which is better. (Although its implied at first that the Griffith ending is better, if you read into it the Guts ending starts to seem preferable) Firstborn posted:Someone please tell me what order to watch Berserk anime series/movies. I've read the manga past flat-face floor-slamming rapepriest, but Guts did not find the berserker armor yet (I don't think). I saw the original tv series with the goofy outtakes in the credits. Read the manga from start to finish. Nothing else matters. The old anime is 2nd best and can be watched anytime. The movies are pretty good if sketchy at first, and cover some of the same material as the original anime but also covers other stuff. Both the anime and movies only cover the VERY BEGINNING of the manga, and nothing else. The new anime is garbage, don't watch it. It covers more of the story but its so bad, just read the loving manga. Sakurazuka posted:No The old anime and movie are good, but nothing touches the manga. And the new anime is VERY NO.
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Jul 5, 2017 20:06
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RatHat posted:I think Guts will have to choose between revenge and the lives of his friends, perhaps even as his own sacrifice to a behelit. I think Ratswarn Conrad is way earlier in the series? The Fantasia montage seems to show they've each carved out their own versions of paradise. Hilariously, for Void, this appears to consist entirely of "is now a gigantic brain"
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Jul 5, 2017 21:29
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Nah, I just read that part. Maybe he also appears as a rat swarm earlier,
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Jul 5, 2017 21:42
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RatHat posted:Nah, I just read that part. Maybe he also appears as a rat swarm earlier, There's a small interlude chapter (126) in volume 17 where he appears. This is before Guts even learns that Casca went missing.
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Jul 5, 2017 22:49
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Rodyle posted:I think Ratswarn Conrad is way earlier in the series? The Fantasia montage seems to show they've each carved out their own versions of paradise. His paradise might just be the fact that his little cult, Holy See, is the major faith of the western nations, if not the whole world now technically in Falcionia. Griffith was his foretold and molded messiah that he painstakingly weaved through the tapestry of causality for over 1000 years. Crabtree fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 23:44
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Oh right, I forgot that Void is actual Jesus, what with Griffith always hogging the spotlight That brain panel is still funny though
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Jul 5, 2017 23:56
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Soooo, when the hiatus is over we're back to the Falconia/Rickert story line? 
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Jul 6, 2017 00:11
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:Soooo, when the hiatus is over we're back to the Falconia/Rickert story line? I certainly hope so.  e: in all seriousness Rickert is basically what the Falconia stuff needed to be interesting, a character who knows what the reader knows and has obvious conflicts with Griffith and the new Band
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Jul 6, 2017 00:26
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We don't really know anything about the Godhand's endgame. However there's a repeating pattern we see unfold over the course of the series. To become an Apostle, you sacrifice whoever or whatever you value most. Your wife (slug-count), your parents (Rosine), etc. Becoming a member of the Godhand requires a larger sacrifice still, reincarnating as a human needed a sacrifice larger than that... Individual to small group to an entire fortress crammed with war refugees, culminating with the death of the Emperor & the kingdom of Midland along with him. The scale keeps increasing, see? Falconia doesn't really need a dark side, in the police state sort of way. If you don't have a deep-seated grudge against Griffith personally, living there is probably great! Why wouldn't it be? After all, it's entire purpose is to concentrate the entire teeming mass of humanity into one place. Because the next sacrifice will be The Big One.
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Jul 6, 2017 01:11
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Yeah but what would he even be sacrificing for? Also wouldn't wiping out humanity be a problem if humanity is why you exist in the first place?
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Jul 6, 2017 01:13
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RatHat posted:Yeah but what would he even be sacrificing for? The Godhand are angels of a higher power. In other words, there's a throne that Griffith's pretty little backside has not graced yet.
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Jul 6, 2017 01:15
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So a throne to rule over his 4 Godhand buddies and the smoking crater of Mankind?
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Jul 6, 2017 01:33
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I feel like Griffith would never really be interested in anything but humans and apostles as such. The manga repeatedly underlines that the apostles can never really divorce themselves entirely of humans, and there's little reason not to believe that applies to the GH members too. He'd never be interested in something as... impersonal as cosmological control.
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Jul 6, 2017 01:44
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