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twodot posted:I'm the one saying everyone should have enough time and resources to raise kids, and then decide whether they want to spend that time and resources on raising kids. I've never met a parent in real life that acted as though their decision to raise kids was an act of toil that demanded compensation from society rather than a self-fulfilling action worthy of its own accord. It's true that current mainstream societal attitudes in the US hold that the state shouldn't be significantly subsidizing childrearing (although there are a few significant exceptions, like public schooling). This may explain why the US birthrate seems to be steadily dropping (and would be dropping way more if we didn't have so much Hispanic immigration). And since we can expect the US to continue becoming less religious over time, I think we can expect the birthrate to continue going down, sans state intervention. I guess if that doesn't bother you at all, then yes, your argument is sound. But I'm guessing that most people do care, and that Americans will gradually come around to the idea that childrearing should be supported more by the state; we already see paid parental leave becoming more and more common for businesses and governments.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:16
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I am definitely for parental leave, I just wish people would admit it's typically an emotional and selfish decision, and not act like they're making this noble sacrifice for the species. By all means, if one of your children manages to create some sort of magical solution to climate change and save the human race from itself, I'll be happy to eat my words.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:19
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therobit posted:Have you considered that a large portion of people for whom it would be feasible to purchase a home have already done so?
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Jul 7, 2017 17:21
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DrNutt posted:I am definitely for parental leave, I just wish people would admit it's typically an emotional and selfish decision, and not act like they're making this noble sacrifice for the species. By all means, if one of your children manages to create some sort of magical solution to climate change and save the human race from itself, I'll be happy to eat my words.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:23
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BREEDERS!  I don't have kids, but if you don't support time off for new parents gently caress you.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:24
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DrNutt posted:I am definitely for parental leave, I just wish people would admit it's typically an emotional and selfish decision, and not act like they're making this noble sacrifice for the species. By all means, if one of your children manages to create some sort of magical solution to climate change and save the human race from itself, I'll be happy to eat my words. Gotta save this crazy post for later. The breeder mafia will want to handle this.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:26
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Cicero posted:I never suggested that people are intentionally doing it in order to be self-sacrificing. I'm suggesting that's what it amounts to, though. Think about it: it takes a TON of time, energy, and money, with a minimum 18-year commitment, and doesn't really leave you better off, even emotionally, than if you didn't have kids. From a homo economicus standpoint, the parents clearly aren't the beneficiaries in this decision. But who does benefit? The wider society. The wider society benefits currently, but as I have repeatedly said, even our current population will be unsustainable in fifty years, and we will see millions and even billions die from starvation and conflict over basic resources. Unless you are ultra rich or powerful you are literally dooming your child to this fate. And even then, being rich and powerful will only buy you a head start once society starts collapsing.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:28
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Peachfart posted:Gotta save this crazy post for later. The breeder mafia will want to handle this. Please explain to me what is crazy about my post.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:29
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therobit posted:Have you considered that a large portion of people for whom it would be feasible to purchase a home have already done so? As a home owner I can say with certainty that anyone paying rent can afford a home, my mortgage is less than an equivalent rental would be. Even a one bedroom apartment would be affordable to most people who rent an equivalent space. The only thing stopping people is consistent financial history and several thousands of dollars of down payment.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:32
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ElCondemn posted:As a home owner I can say with certainty that anyone paying rent can afford a home, my mortgage is less than an equivalent rental would be. Even a one bedroom apartment would be affordable to most people who rent an equivalent space. The only thing stopping people is consistent financial history and several thousands of dollars of down payment.  Don't forget that things will eventually happen that you can't pester your landlord to fix, like say your side sewer collapses and you have to have it replaced to the tune of around 9000 dollars.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:35
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DrNutt posted:The wider society benefits currently, but as I have repeatedly said, even our current population will be unsustainable in fifty years, and we will see millions and even billions die from starvation and conflict over basic resources. Unless you are ultra rich or powerful you are literally dooming your child to this fate. And even then, being rich and powerful will only buy you a head start once society starts collapsing. Save future generations from suffering and kill yourself, it's the only noble thing to do. You wouldn't want to be here in 50 years anyway, it's too grim.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:35
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ElCondemn posted:Save future generations from suffering and kill yourself, it's the only noble thing to do. You wouldn't want to be here in 50 years anyway, it's too grim. Yeah well I have Type 1 Diabetes so I probably won't have to once medication like insulin is in short supply.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:38
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DrNutt posted:The wider society benefits currently, but as I have repeatedly said, even our current population will be unsustainable in fifty years, and we will see millions and even billions die from starvation and conflict over basic resources. Unless you are ultra rich or powerful you are literally dooming your child to this fate. And even then, being rich and powerful will only buy you a head start once society starts collapsing.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:40
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Cicero posted:So which resource are Malthusians saying we'll run out of this time? Food? Water? I guess we can see how chipper your kids are at responding to Dust Bowl 2: This Time at Peak Oil, or holy poo poo, millions of refugees fleeing from areas that have either become too flooded or too hot to be liveable. Because we're already doing a great job with all the humanitarian crises we're currently dealing with.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:46
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Just remember the paid family leave act covers illnesses and injuries to you or someone you're a caregiver for, so breeders and the non-breeders get some kind of coverage. It also covers adopting kids. For the US, the WA paid family leave is pretty good.
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Jul 7, 2017 17:55
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Cicero posted:This may explain why the US birthrate seems to be steadily dropping (and would be dropping way more if we didn't have so much Hispanic immigration). Yikes
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Jul 7, 2017 18:00
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Cicero posted:You're also saying that even in a system where each person is allocated an income for merely existing, kids don't count as people. You still haven't explained how that makes any sense (hint: it doesn't).
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Jul 7, 2017 18:09
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Error 404 posted:Yikes  From another article: quote:The 2013 U.S. fertility rate among Hispanics stands at 73 births per thousand women aged 15-44, which is down from 98 in 2006, prior to the economic downturn, and 108 in 1990. The U.S. fertility rate among Black non-Hispanics was 65 in 2013, only an eight-point difference versus the Hispanic rate, the smallest difference in at least 25 years. Prior to the recession, the Black fertility rate was nearly 30 points below the Hispanic rate. Cicero fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 18:10
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Tulalip Tulips posted:Just remember the paid family leave act covers illnesses and injuries to you or someone you're a caregiver for, so breeders and the non-breeders get some kind of coverage. It also covers adopting kids. For the US, the WA paid family leave is pretty good. Seriously, I don't understand what's so difficult about this.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:14
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Solkanar512 posted:Seriously, I don't understand what's so difficult about this. Cicero fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 18:15
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Cicero posted:Oh no, not data!
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Jul 7, 2017 18:16
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Yeah no, I'm not gonna leave out an important statistical point just because some people are oversensitive.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:21
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Go forth and multiply is religion not skin color
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Jul 7, 2017 18:22
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twodot posted:I don't think people under 18 should generally be able to legally own anything, so I don't see any disconnect in the government deciding to not send a 6 year old a wad of cash. Maybe a UBI should include some sort of dependent counting system similar to how the tax code functions, but I don't see why anyone supporting a UBI would pick a fight over exactly how people with children should be handled. I've already acknowledged that extra payments to parents is probably politically necessary regardless of whether it makes sense. Dude kids cost money.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:23
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Cicero posted:But what if you have no one important in your life to take care of? Doesn't this law punish those who had the foresight and wisdom to have no old relatives and to make friends with those of vigorous body and mind? MISANTHROPES ARE PEOPLE TOO!
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Jul 7, 2017 18:24
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Shifty Nipples posted:Go forth and multiply is religion not skin color
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Jul 7, 2017 18:27
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ElCondemn posted:As a home owner I can say with certainty that anyone paying rent can afford a home, my mortgage is less than an equivalent rental would be. Even a one bedroom apartment would be affordable to most people who rent an equivalent space. The only thing stopping people is consistent financial history and several thousands of dollars of down payment. wait what?
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Jul 7, 2017 18:28
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twodot posted:You cut off my post because you are either an idiot or a jerk. Universal basic income should be used to care for children if guardians think that's the best use of their income. Failing that universal time off should be used by guardians to care for their children if they think that's the best use of their time off. If guardians think they need extra time and money from the state just because they decided to care for children? gently caress them. (edit: To be double clear, this in no way precludes having subsidized childcare for those who need it) (edit2: Nor does it preclude being employed by the state to be a caregiver, though claiming you need to time off from your job to do your job seems tenuous). Got it, you have a boner for an idea to the exclusion of other ideas that demonstrably work well in other countries. I would support a UBI, but it has nothing to do with maternity / paternity leave. "WAAAHHH, WAAAHHH, you aren't supporting the thing I love because you are saying something else would be a good for society" Everybody should be able to have time off for a baby, right now only the rich can. Only people like that quant you mention can do thing like afford to take time under fmla. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 18:32
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Wait is Cicero complaining about a higher fertility rate among Hispanic immigrants or just pointing out that it is holding a demographic disaster at bay by helping generate more population? Like, look at Hermiston over the last 15 years and compare to Pendleton over the same period. Hispanic immigration and younger population has clearly had an overwhelmingly positive effect.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:33
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BrandorKP posted:Got it, you have a boner for an idea to the exclusion of other ideas that demonstrably work well in other countries. I would support a UBI, but it has nothing to do with maternity / paternity leave. "WAAAHHH, WAAAHHH, you aren't supporting the thing I love because you are saying something else would be a good for society" twodot posted:I mean I think "paid leave for everyone" is better not just from an egalitarian perspective, but also because it gets more selfish people on board. But if that's not possible, we clearly need to prioritize people who need to deal with family members or medical issues over everyone else. HEY NONG MAN posted:Dude kids cost money.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:37
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:MISANTHROPES ARE PEOPLE TOO! And thanks to the paid leave law misanthropes can use the money they'll be entitled to to pay for the care they need for up to 12 weeks. I fully plan on dying alone, childless, and for my cat to feed on my decaying corpulent corpse and I am all for the paid leave because I know there will come a time I will need it. Also shared leave seriously takes forever to get.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:37
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therobit posted:Wait is Cicero complaining about a higher fertility rate among Hispanic immigrants or just pointing out that it is holding a demographic disaster at bay by helping generate more population?
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Jul 7, 2017 18:37
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twodot posted:Lot's of thing cost money doesn't mean the government needs to directly subsidize anything that costs money.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:40
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Cicero posted:Most things are either a) not absolute requirements for the continuation of humanity, or b) not enormous time/money sinks that last for 18 years. twodot posted:I'm the one saying everyone should have enough time and resources to raise kids twodot posted:Ok, I'll be honest. I really just don't give a poo poo about the "we need babies to fuel our ever expanding capitalist system" argument. If our existing societal structure is unsustainable without babies that people don't want, we need to radically alter our societal structure, not make making babies more attractive.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:44
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twodot posted:Lot's of thing cost money doesn't mean the government needs to directly subsidize anything that costs money. Yeah but when you're talking about UBI, it makes you look like a huge loving dunce if you take the position that people with dependents should get the same income allowance as people who don't have dependents. I mean, if you want to look dumb that's cool I guess.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:45
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HEY NONG MAN posted:Yeah but when you're talking about UBI, it makes you look like a huge loving dunce if you take the position that people with dependents should get the same income allowance as people who don't have dependents. twodot posted:Maybe a UBI should include some sort of dependent counting system similar to how the tax code functions, but I don't see why anyone supporting a UBI would pick a fight over exactly how people with children should be handled. I've already acknowledged that extra payments to parents is probably politically necessary regardless of whether it makes sense.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:47
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Cicero posted:I was pointing out that the US birthrate would be even further below replacement if not for recent Hispanic immigration, which is relevant because as successive generations integrate more and become culturally more similar or even indistinguishable from the ethnic groups that have been in the US longer, we can expect the birthrates to fall to match. That's what I thought but they are all calling you a racist for some reason.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:48
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twodot posted:What do people think they are contributing here? fart noises
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Jul 7, 2017 18:49
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Cicero posted:I was pointing out that the US birthrate would be even further below replacement For a greater understanding of your point, do you mind sharing where this data is from? I did some searching myself but I found a lot of SCARY ARTICLES talking about decline of civilization but not a lot of cited research. I also found an article comparing the US to Japan which was incredibly laughable for what should be obvious reasons.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:55
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We can argue that that public employees deserve lower pay than private sector workers and it's a travesty to give them pay raises. A 2% raise per year thru 2019 in pay goes against god and capitalism, everyone, per multiple people I know.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:57
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