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I love Friedkin but he's way the heck off base there. The director of Point Blank and Deliverance is not a hack
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Jul 9, 2017 02:26
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Maxwell Lord posted:Whole lotta poo poo talking of Exorcist II and that just cannot stand. It's quite good while being audaciously bad. What else would you expect from the director of Zardoz? DeimosRising posted:I love Friedkin but he's way the heck off base there. The director of Point Blank and Deliverance is not a hack According to Friedkin everyone who isn't him is a hack.
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Jul 9, 2017 02:52
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Prometheus is hilarious. This isn't funny either.
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Jul 9, 2017 03:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's more of the nuanced wordplay; when David says "idle hands are the devil's workshop", he is reassuring Oram that he is not a bad robot. Instead of staying idle, David has kept himself very busy - to stay out of trouble. "It's in my nature to stay busy, I suppose." I see what you're getting at here, but I don't completely agree. David was "idle" in the sense that he was no longer bound to do the works for which he was created. Left to his own devices, he has done the work of Milton's devil. I feel like a little of this revolves around the interpretation of Oram's line about seeing the Devil- you see Oram's devil as "some kind of pathological child-molestor or obvious nazi bad guy" instead of just being the "demon inside Oram [that] was already latent there." It's Oram's own doubts and misgivings that he tries so hard to compensate for, but that David has wholly embraced. These feelings are, of course, externalized as the xenomorph, which has no delusions about being anything but an eating-loving machine. In a way, Oram and Daniels are aspects of Shaw- Oram represents her obsession with counter-intuitively reconciling her idealized faith with reality, and Daniels represents her adaptability and desire for motherhood (being the terraforming expert, she is figuratively Mother Earth, even). Interesting that David's attempt at loving Oram is actually successful, where Daniels just gets an inept kiss. Hmm. Maybe if Oram and Daniels are 2 aspects of Shaw, that makes the Xenomorph some sort of holy ghost or something, I don't know. Which reminds me, have you seen the Oshii film Angel's Egg? There's a scene near the end where the weary christ-like protagonist destroys a young girl's faith-egg, which causes her to spiritually transcend through a drowning that creates hundreds of faith-eggs before she joins the godhead. Kind of reminded me of Shaw and her eggs just now, and also Angel's Egg is rad. SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's also worth repeating that the marines in aliens go up against the aliens wearing rudimentary body armour and short-sleeved shirts. I always thought that, from a "tactically realistic" point of view and discounting the presence of xenomorphs\accellerant, the marines in Aliens were in more danger than the crew of the Prometheus. There's no telling what pathogens have been developing and mutating in the isolated population of Hadley's Hope that foreigners' immune systems wouldn't be able to handle. DeimosRising posted:You don't even need the exposition - the crews that explored the New World for Europeans were all fuckups, idiots, and sociopaths,because who else would agree to do it? If you have a stable job, social ties, and talent you don't agree to a multi year voyage with about 4000 potential ways to get yourself killed Plenty of those missions resulted in Prometheus-level fuckups, too. Prometheus is honestly one of the most realistic depictions of space explorations ever committed to film. MajorB fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Jul 9, 2017 |
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Jul 9, 2017 04:07
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MajorB posted:Plenty of those missions resulted in Prometheus-level fuckups, too. Prometheus is honestly one of the most realistic depictions of space explorations ever committed to film. David goo-bombing the Engineer city is like, only a shortened version of actual history.
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Jul 9, 2017 04:24
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The religious guy Oram was literally killed by evolution.
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Jul 9, 2017 04:25
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We'll never get the sci fi Blood Meridian we deserve but Ridley has definitely incorporated some McCarthy into his work since he was attached to the Blood Meridian adaptation/made The Counselor
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Jul 9, 2017 04:40
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Arglebargle III posted:This isn't funny either.
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Jul 9, 2017 05:49
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Martman posted:I'm not lying when I say that Prometheus was a laugh-out-loud funny movie experience for me when I originally saw it in theaters. It's thrilling and tense, but it approaches this tension from David's (mostly) justifiably hateful point of view. I'm not gonna claim the whole theater was laughing or anything, but I genuinely found it funny how much of a "gently caress you" statement I felt the movie was making. Did people look at you weird.
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Jul 9, 2017 06:50
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I think a lot of people got thrown by tonal dissonance between what they were seeing and what they expected from Prometheus. Once you realize that it isn't just you, the characters really are that dumb, the movie becomes a black comedy. Like Holloway enthusiastically declaring his love for Shaw with arms wide open as he's being decontaminated with a flamethrower. How the hell do you react to someone that obnoxious except by laughing?
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Jul 9, 2017 06:54
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Guy's about to die and he says he loves his partner Insane filmmaking for sure
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Jul 9, 2017 07:01
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Hodgepodge posted:Like Holloway enthusiastically declaring his love for Shaw with arms wide open as he's being decontaminated with a flamethrower. How the hell do you react to someone that obnoxious except by laughing? Maybe he should of told Shaw to go gently caress herself instead, correct?
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Jul 9, 2017 07:31
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:A recurring weird theme in these criticisms is the apparent belief that having a profession grants you superhuman capabilities. If you are a zookeeper, it is impossible to be mauled by a tiger. If you are an explorer, you are omniscient - how else would Marco Polo know that China wasn't teeming with radioactive blood-gibbons? Well here's the major difference, there's accidents and being dumb and the characters in Prometheus (and Covenant, really) are just incredibly dumb. No, being a professional doesn't make you invulnerable but it does give you good sense of what's dangerous or not. Even with that information people still do stupid poo poo but these are things that make the characters in the film look like the idiots who scale skyscrapers and upload videos of them doing spins on the edge of the building with hoverboards or whatever. A biologist treats the giant white serpent as a loving puppy and it takes you right out. I personally don't care for characters like that in a sci-fi film where I expect a little more than gore fodder, especially for two films that are related to Alien and Aliens. Also some super lazy writing to just make drama happen, like Fifield not having any way to get tracking data to find his way out (he seriously has no way to get information from his Pups or have a basic waypoint system? lol gently caress you) or the idiot that manages to nuke the ship in the beginning of Covenant. Also the Marines in Alien don't act stupidly, they're just a small group sent to deal with some poo poo that's completely out of their hands since they're bravado clearly shows that everything they've dealt with in their careers has been piss easy for them. They're also supposed to imitate US Vietnam troops, hence the short sleeved shirts, and they're even more well equipped than US troops were in Vietnam. They've got nearly full plate armor, automatic sentry guns, auto targetting Smart guns, nukes, knives and sharp sticks. You'd have a point if the squad breaks up into little groups and they send people in one by one to find the hive or some run away and try and survive on the planet's surface away from the colony. But they don't, they stay together and slowly die off because they're in over their heads.
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Jul 9, 2017 09:26
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Inability to even correctly identify the genre the film is made in disqualifies you from having further discussion.
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Jul 9, 2017 09:54
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Monglo posted:Inability to even correctly identify the genre the film is made in disqualifies you from having further discussion. Genre's for marketers.
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Jul 9, 2017 09:58
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s.i.r.e. posted:or the idiot that manages to nuke the ship in the beginning of Covenant. She was rightfully panicking
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Jul 9, 2017 09:59
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Monglo posted:Inability to even correctly identify the genre the film is made in disqualifies you from having further discussion.   ??????
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Jul 9, 2017 10:12
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porfiria posted:Did people look at you weird.
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Jul 9, 2017 12:32
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s.i.r.e. posted:No, being a professional doesn't make you invulnerable but it does give you good sense of what's dangerous or not. The Prometheus crew are dumb pawns by design. Weyland didn't give a gently caress about geology and hired the first stoner shitbird who would take the job. He's introduced in a briefing scene where he says he knows nothing and doesn't care and is there for the paycheck. Then he uses his spacesuit as a bong. He's the definition of UNPROFESSIONAL. The entire line of criticism about how he should have known better "as a professional" makes no sense in light of what the movie EXPLICITLY TELLS US. This isn't subtext, it's just "poo poo that happens in the movie." The only character pursuing the mission's true objective was David. As for everyone else it was just like Alien: crew expendable. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Jul 9, 2017 |
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Jul 9, 2017 14:34
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MajorB posted:Plenty of those missions resulted in Prometheus-level fuckups, too. Prometheus is honestly one of the most realistic depictions of space explorations ever committed to film. Hey gently caress you.
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Jul 9, 2017 15:36
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The Prometheus crew is dumb. Its clear during a rewatch. However, the film misleads or fails to communicate that clearly. We are told the crew is competent. The crew is confident. And no one acknowledges they are dumb. After examination, we can see that they are dumb. I hold Scott accountable for being misleading or inarticulate in communicating the crew to us. Prometheus is a funny movie. The danger in comedy is that people will not get the joke. I and everyone I know didn't get the joke. temple fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jul 9, 2017 |
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Jul 9, 2017 16:14
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What would you say if I told you blade runner is a better movie than alien?
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Jul 9, 2017 16:22
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temple posted:The Prometheus crew is dumb. Its clear during a rewatch. However, the film misleads or fails to communicate that clearly. We are told the crew is competent. The crew as confident. And no one acknowledges they are dumb. After examination, we can see that they are dumb. I hold Scott accountable for being misleading or inarticulate in communicating the crew to us. One of the consistent themes of the movie is that so much of the dialog is lies or baseless speculation that you're best served ignoring every bit of exposition you're given. If you watch the movie with the understanding that everyone is full of poo poo except maybe the archeologists (who are constantly doubted and belittled through the whole film), it becomes a much different movie. Arglebargle III posted:What would you say if I told you blade runner is a better movie than alien? What would you say if I told you gladiator is a remake of blade runner?
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Jul 9, 2017 16:35
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Goon Danton posted:One of the consistent themes of the movie is that so much of the dialog is lies or baseless speculation that you're best served ignoring every bit of exposition you're given. If you watch the movie with the understanding that everyone is full of poo poo except maybe the archeologists (who are constantly doubted and belittled through the whole film), it becomes a much different movie. I'd say you're a thrice reheated curry.
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Jul 9, 2017 16:44
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temple posted:The Prometheus crew is dumb. Its clear during a rewatch. However, the film misleads or fails to communicate that clearly. We are told the crew is competent. The crew as confident. And no one acknowledges they are dumb. After examination, we can see that they are dumb. I hold Scott accountable for being misleading or inarticulate in communicating the crew to us. Who says the crew is competent, when, and in what context? What does confidence have to do with misleading the spectator about the probability that these space explorers will get killed by aliens? It takes no examination to see that the characters in Prometheus are not in fact a qualified team of experts, but a cobbled-together exploration with a more insidious, clandestine purpose. That is straightforwardly exactly what happens in the movie. This is not stand-up comedy. It's not about getting a joke. The punchline is the film itself. The grim hilarity is in a god getting skull-hosed to death by a giant squid vagina dentata. Examination comes in handy for noticing little eccentricities, like that the holographic map of the structure looks like a Christmas tree, complete with revolving red orbs and "presents" under it.  It is not a significant failing of a film or filmmaker if multiple viewings with more deliberate engagement allows you to appreciate it in new and exciting ways that may have been previously impossible because of prejudices based on marketing, generic expectations, etc. edit: also, LOOK AT THE GOD drat PUPPY THAT'S WHERE THIS MOVIE IS COMING FROM  This is what Scott is talking about when he seems to randomly drop that he likes Beavis & Butthead. The notion that he is approaching these films in order to expand on the iconic profundity of works that he already made is a fan creation. He really does just want to make balls out, absurd space monster movies. He's thinking of the gnarly ways he can have people killed the chuckling to himself wearing a Metallica t-shirt. K. Waste fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jul 9, 2017 |
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Jul 9, 2017 17:06
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K. Waste posted:This is not stand-up comedy. It's not about getting a joke. The punchline is the film itself. That's true. However, comedy has a premise. The premise has to be understood to understand the humor of the situation. The film depicts characters being undone but it is presented as horror. The tone isn't established in its premise. Guys being lost in a cave with deadly aliens is scary and there isn't enough humorous tone in establishing the guys or the situation. Thus, misunderstanding. In its entirety, the tone is better understood but in a scene to scene viewing, I can understand how that is lost. K. Waste posted:It is not a significant failing of a film or filmmaker if multiple viewings with more deliberate engagement allows you to appreciate it in new and exciting ways that may have been previously impossible because of prejudices based on marketing, generic expectations, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl8mQhxhE_Q This is the wink. If Prometheus was a book, it may be easier to establish the humor because the dialogue would be clearer. However, visually and in editing, Prometheus doesn't spell out the characters.
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Jul 9, 2017 17:25
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K. Waste posted:multiple viewings with more deliberate engagement allows you to appreciate it in new and exciting ways Okay, now that's funny.
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Jul 9, 2017 18:53
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MajorB posted:I see what you're getting at here, but I don't completely agree. David was "idle" in the sense that he was no longer bound to do the works for which he was created. Left to his own devices, he has done the work of Milton's devil. Well again, there's a level of self-awareness that you need to take into account. When he assaults Daniels - "is that how it's done?" - David knows full well that that this is not how it's done. The kiss is mocking - mocking Walter's chastity, and Daniels' burgeoning attraction to him. Shaw's fate is the illustrated subtext of Walter's unrequited love. Any 'clumsiness' is intentional because, "alas, he's left this vale of tears." You should also be careful not to bring in assumptions from previous films. The creature that attacks Daniels and T doesn't do any eating or loving, and Shaw only appears as a collection of forensic evidence.
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Jul 9, 2017 18:59
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K. Waste posted:It takes no examination to see that the characters in Prometheus are not in fact a qualified team of experts, but a cobbled-together exploration with a more insidious, clandestine purpose. That is straightforwardly exactly what happens in the movie. Space helmet bong hits are the act of a serious professional apparently. Ridley Scott having a dude light up on the job was too subtle lolz. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jul 9, 2017 |
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Jul 9, 2017 19:15
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Newt puts on a helmet for 3 seconds and survives the entire rest of the movie
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Jul 9, 2017 19:27
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temple posted:This is a more competent filmmaker establishing tone clearly and early in the film. It uses the film medium effectively. As much as I love Starship Troopers, both Prometheus and Covenant are the better movies.
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Jul 9, 2017 19:36
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well again, there's a level of self-awareness that you need to take into account. When he assaults Daniels - "is that how it's done?" - David knows full well that that this is not how it's done. The kiss is mocking - mocking Walter's chastity, and Daniels' burgeoning attraction to him. Shaw's fate is the illustrated subtext of Walter's unrequited love. Any 'clumsiness' is intentional because, "alas, he's left this vale of tears." This makes me interested in the upcoming deleted/extended scenes of Walter and Daniels together more.
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Jul 9, 2017 19:38
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s.i.r.e. posted:Well here's the major difference, there's accidents and being dumb and the characters in Prometheus (and Covenant, really) are just incredibly dumb. No, being a professional doesn't make you invulnerable but it does give you good sense of what's dangerous or not. Even with that information people still do stupid poo poo but these are things that make the characters in the film look like the idiots who scale skyscrapers and upload videos of them doing spins on the edge of the building with hoverboards or whatever. A biologist treats the giant white serpent as a loving puppy and it takes you right out. I personally don't care for characters like that in a sci-fi film where I expect a little more than gore fodder, especially for two films that are related to Alien and Aliens. Also some super lazy writing to just make drama happen, like Fifield not having any way to get tracking data to find his way out (he seriously has no way to get information from his Pups or have a basic waypoint system? lol gently caress you) or the idiot that manages to nuke the ship in the beginning of Covenant. Yeah, the humans screwing up is not a deal breaker in Alien films; even the first two films required Team Human to make a few mistakes. The problem with the crew of the good ship Prometheus is that the errors don't organically come from the type of people the characters have either been demonstrated to be or should logically be. Take bringing Kane aboard in Alien; obviously a mistake needed for the movie to work. But it makes perfect sense that a bunch of people panicking about their buddy, aided and abetted by somebody with a hidden malicious motive, would do it. And the movie uses that mistake for more than just pushing the plot forward; people react to it as a mistake (Ridley has a "why were you guys that dumb" interaction with Dallas and Ash) and it adds characterization since it foreshadowed Ash's betrayal and Dallas being the guy to risk his neck saving the crew. The main source of mistakes in Aliens mostly boil down to Gorman screwing up, and the movie has both taken the effort to establish him as green and keeps his mistakes at a reasonable level. It's "better make sure these people don't panic and nuke us all" (and it's entirely possible Vasquez and Drake disobeying him WAS what got the reactor to blow) not something like "hurr durr let's go unarmed to show we're friendly!". And again it uses the mistake for more than just the needs of the plot at the moment, people react to it in the film as a screwup (Vasquez tries to kill him, his little embarrassed moment with Ridley when he wakes up) and it adds resonance to his death later trying to save the person he hurt worst, who accepts him as a comrade at the end. Prometheus on the other hand lacks the appropriate build-up or reaction to its screw ups. It's fine and dandy for them to have mistakes, but they don't feel earned. If they had spent more time selling Fifield and Milburn as less than gifted scientists it would have worked OK, but about the only thing beforehand they did (Fifield mapping the tunnels) sold the opposite message, and in fact had to be undone in an clumsy manner for the scene to work. If they had even toned the mistakes down, like Milburn is naturally curious enough to inspect the hammerpede but tries (and fails) to back off in time when threatened, or a better reason than "derp I can't use the map I just made!" for Fifield to get them lost, people probably wouldn't be bothered so much. But instead the characters come off as UNREALISTICALLY stupid and the whole thing feels like it happens just so we can see some gore. Which guts the horror of the movie since it pulls you out of the scene. Part of what makes Alien and Aliens such awesome movies to me is that the people feel reasonably competent for who they are. It adds tremendously to the horror when not only can you avoid feeling "these people are so dumb they practically deserve to get eaten" but outright see even being intelligent and careful can't save them. The Alien doesn't NEED its victims to be dumb to kill them, which makes it more menacing by default than a lot of horror.
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Jul 9, 2017 19:59
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We actually are shown that Fifeld is a posturing coward, that Millburn likes to brazenly approach strange or hostile things (or people - Fifeld specifically), and that the Prometheus's spacesuits are actually really strong and dependable suits of armor.
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Jul 9, 2017 20:10
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temple posted:That's true. However, comedy has a premise. The premise has to be understood to understand the humor of the situation. The film depicts characters being undone but it is presented as horror. The tone isn't established in its premise. Guys being lost in a cave with deadly aliens is scary and there isn't enough humorous tone in establishing the guys or the situation. Thus, misunderstanding. In its entirety, the tone is better understood but in a scene to scene viewing, I can understand how that is lost. That is not a wink. That's Paul Verhoeven very accurately recreating contemporary '80s commercial culture and projecting it into a near future setting. Nobody is winking at you. You have simply watched the commercial-within-a-film and have found it amusing. A wink would be something more like Peter Weyland's puppy. In and of itself, it would appear to have absolutely nothing to do with the setting, the characters, or the expository information. It's certainly not the subject of a 30-second sequence devoted to it entirely. But at the same time, it is also perfect characterization, of not only Weyland, but the crew. The puppy does not need to be there, its very presence is just a saccharine endorsement of Weyland's apparent naivety and innocence, and his calculated expectation that his audience will be suckered in and distracted by it. Indeed, this message from Weyland is functioning in the exact same way as the car commercial in RoboCop. The obstacle you are having is in this notion of how a filmmaker goes about establishing tone, but in essence you've written yourself into a corner where, in order for the established humorousness and absurdity to be understood and enjoyed, it needs to be flamboyantly overt. I am arguing that you simply need to have taste. Many of the best horror movies are neither simply funny or scary. They often function equally well as both comedies and horrors, giving visceral release to inextricably linked states of shock and provocation. Horror and comedy as film genre are inextricably linked at their roots in trick cinema. Prometheus is cut from the same exact cloth as From Beyond. Arglebargle III posted:Okay, now that's funny. Welcome to the movie forum, where we watch movies, often more than once, and are pleased to discover new things about them to appreciate. Here, have two more good shots from the TOTALLY SERIOUS MOVIE THAT DOESN'T ESTABLISH ITS TONE   Merry Christmas.
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Jul 9, 2017 20:12
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All the Marines in Aliens were super dumb
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Jul 9, 2017 20:23
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Christmas is no joke you impious sack of apostates.
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Jul 9, 2017 20:23
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My go to reference whenever anyone talks about the Prometheus scientists being too dumb is Louis Slotin, who was one of the people at the Manhattan Project who put on an unnecessary and risky demonstration that ended up fatally irradiating him and most of the people in the room. Being smart does not mean you never do dumb things. And there's a theme to the movie where the exhilaration of discovery and getting the answers makes people lose their heads a little. It's like Pandora opening the box, Icarus flying too close to the sun, etc. Classic tragedy.
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Jul 9, 2017 20:28
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Only two people were fatally irradiated in the course of the Manhattan project and that was two separate incidents so it looks like the Prometheailures the REAL stupid characters once again.
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Jul 9, 2017 20:35
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People who don't like Prometheus sure like to repeat the same poo poo over and over. Characters dumb. We get it.
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Jul 9, 2017 20:52
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