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Mortanis posted:Dumb rules question. With Tau, Drone Support says they act as a separate unit. Does that count for victory points? Played a game today against a Tau player where the only victory condition was victory points for killing units and I slaughtered him based solely on drones - either I popped them as they're squishy or his Saviour Protocols for taking hits. That seems really crappy but we can't find anything implying otherwise. One deployed they are a separate unit. Were you counting each individual drone as a unit, or the drones that deployed with suits in a cumulative unit of their own? Edit: I'm asking because it sounds like you are treating each drone as one unit, when you are supposed to treat them as a unit together. Example: unit of 3 crisis suits have 2 drones each. Once they hit the table, you now have a unit of 3 crisis suits and a unit of 6 drones. Either way, the answer is to take shield drones along with other drones. If you use a drone as an ablative wound, they get no save and take a mortal wound. But if the drone unit is attacked outright, the shield drone still gets its save which can take the brunt of any shots before allocating to other drones in the unit. Unit of 6 drones (2 shield, 2 gun, 2 markerlight) takes 4 wounds. Roll the two 4+ saves for the shield drones, assuming you make them, then allocate the other wounds to 1 gun and 1 markerlight. Or however you want it done. Kabuki Shipoopi fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 03:23
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Safety Factor posted:Are furies trash? They cost 12 points each for this: Khorne ones seem alright? 3 str 5 attacks on the charge and summoning them into the middle of a lot of stuff you're going to force moral tests on COULD potentially be good maybe? You could probably shred stuff via leadership quite easily if you really went for it. In the FW stuff Butcher cannons give -2 to stuff it hits and the land raider can give -1 to stuff within 12. Then there's spawns, Nurgle icons and Belakor for -1 each. Slaanesh demons Cacophonic Choir spell rolls 2d6 and does a mortal wound for each point over the targets leadership. Even against vehicles and stuff.
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Jul 10, 2017 03:46
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NORTH-HALL posted:Khorne ones seem alright? 3 str 5 attacks on the charge and summoning them into the middle of a lot of stuff you're going to force moral tests on COULD potentially be good maybe?
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Jul 10, 2017 04:17
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Kabuki Shipoopi posted:Were you counting each individual drone as a unit, or the drones that deployed with suits in a cumulative unit of their own? That is a good time to roll saves one at a time, or two at a time, until you run out of shield drones.
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Jul 10, 2017 04:22
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thesurlyspringKAA posted:Awesooome! I kick myself every time I read or see a militarum battle report. I shoulda gone with them instead of tau. Man, they are just the best. Their strategy has always been 'march straight towards the enemies guns until they reach their preset kill limit and shut down' but in this edition it actually works because they're cheap enough and they don't overpay for their 4+ to hit weapons and super-fragile support squads. Quantum shielding is super dickish because epithet better and more decisive your blow was going to be, the worse chance of it being nothing at all. You've really got to chip away at their vehicles which is so drat aggravating.
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Jul 10, 2017 13:16
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We got some Reiver rules! Being able to disable Overwatch is nuts for an assault unit, and -1 to hit rolls makes it way harder for them to retaliate after. I'm concerned their unit size won't help them properly consolidate their way out of gunfire, but even a small squad of these guys should be able to successfully delete a decent sized gunline. This makes me wonder if the Easy Build kits come with power for a 3-Reiver unit, like the 4 power Intercessor datasheet. Being able to run these in several squads of 3 would be nuts. The Bee fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 15:30
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The Bee posted:We got some Reiver rules! Holy poo poo yeah. That's pretty great. Still going to hold out for the full box of them though. I'm not crazy about the Immortan Joe squad leader.
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Jul 10, 2017 15:36
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Interestingly, that article doesn't say they can Infiltrate or Deep Strike.
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Jul 10, 2017 15:41
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JoshTheStampede posted:Interestingly, that article doesn't say they can Infiltrate or Deep Strike. They mentioned special abilities, plural, so I doubt this is everything. I'm hoping they get a Lictor style ambush, personally. Also of note is that their armor save isn't diminished from a usual Primaris unit, either, so if we do get Ambush it won't be paired with comparative Scout fragility. By any chance, what are the most morale-dependent armies? The Bee fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 15:46
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The Bee posted:They mentioned special abilities, plural, so I doubt this is everything. I'm hoping they get a Lictor style ambush, personally. If you take out the support guard crumble to morale fairly fast. I think a lot of armies can be but most of them have ways to mitigate it. Creates some interesting counterplay I think. Snipers targeting commissars and officers are terrifying to a guard player.
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Jul 10, 2017 15:55
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5 Reivers throw out like... 16 attacks on top of their shooting/grenades. That's not super shabby. The -1 to hit on the grenade seems super awesome, Vindicare Assassins have a similar thing with Blind grenades, but I haven't gotten to test those out due to the uh...average range of engagement on that model.
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Jul 10, 2017 15:58
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The Bee posted:They mentioned special abilities, plural, so I doubt this is everything. I'm hoping they get a Lictor style ambush, personally. My fire warriors, kroot, and drones tend to take heavy losses from morale. Crisis suits are protected by their small unit size. It seems like militarum infantry squads without commander or komissar support would get decimated too
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Jul 10, 2017 16:13
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If you kill enough of them Orks can actually take some pretty nasty losses from morale these days.
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Jul 10, 2017 16:25
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I'm building a Guard army for 8th, focused around small-unit really mobile infantry, and had some questions on a decent build focusing on a core of scions and a couple of tauroxes. Before I go out any pick up a bunch of scout bikes, has anyone had much experience with rough riders in this edition yet? I'm curious as how they play versus a similar priced unit of scions or even a regular infantry squad. Also, from play testing I feel that my total number of shots are rather low for what I have. Any advice? 1500pt Generic List concept: Guard Unbound: 1x Tempestor Prime - Yelling stick, powerfist 2x platoon commanders - power weapons 1x Commissar- Plasma, powersword 1x Scion Command - Plasma, Plasma, Flamer, Vox 1x Special Weapons - Plasma, Melta, Sniper 2x Five man scion squads - Vox, plasma gun, power fist plasma pistol 1x Five man scion squad - vox, Volley gun, Power sword, bolt pistol 6x Rough Riders - Lances, Laspistols, Chainswords, Sgt w/ Powersword and plasma pistol 1x Valkyrie- Lascannons, 1x Heavy weapons (lascannons) 1x Heavy weapons (autocannons) 1x Taurox Prime, battle cannon, auto cannons 2x Taurox, autocannons Auxiliary Detachment: 1x Custodian guard squad- Spears, Captain with Sword and knife.
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Jul 10, 2017 16:38
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Why so many squads with: 1) Mixed weapons (the sws with plas/melta/sniper sticks out especially) 2) Less than the max number of special weapons 3) CC weapons (especially on stuff like 5-man scions who are gonna get obliterated long before they're swinging that power fist at anyone) Those are the reason you feel like you have less firepower than you should - so many unfocused squads with a little bit of everything, and tons of points in poo poo like plasma pistols and power weapons when there's special weapon slots going unused. Same with the Rough Riders - the best use of them is to deliver cheap, fast special weapons all over the place. You have six naked squads of them doing nothing in particular.
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Jul 10, 2017 16:51
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The Bee posted:We got some Reiver rules! Those look great. Hopefully GW will get the multiple part kits out soon so I can avoid helmets.
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Jul 10, 2017 16:56
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Corrode posted:
I screwed up that listing, among other stuff- I have 1 squad of 6 bikers, I stuck 2 melta guns in that squad. With the rest of your advice, I was trying to go with versatility. I haven't played in about 2 editions, and the only thing I've been active in is SW:A and other skirmish level stuff so I'm thinking really low level stuff. I completely spaced out on the fact that you can have 2x special weapons per scion squad, thinking the vox-caster counted as one. Thanks for the input!
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Jul 10, 2017 17:09
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That's a surprisingly good amount of armies that morale applies to. Seems like Reivers are going to especially be making the Tau miserable. Weak, fragile gunlines? Low morale? Deny them their precious Overwatch? Yeah, Reivers are going to be jamming them into lockers and laughing. A proper sniper unit to make characters go away will also help Tyranids and Guardsmen crumple. Orks, I'm unsure. Reivers seem too small unit-wise to make the green tide crumble, especially if their effect doesn't stack. If it does stack, small MSU pockets of Reivers are going to be hellish.
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Jul 10, 2017 17:19
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I just don't understand the concept of "stripped down" MK X armour giving exactly the same save as normal?
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Jul 10, 2017 17:23
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The Bee posted:That's a surprisingly good amount of armies that morale applies to. Seems like Reivers are going to especially be making the Tau miserable. Weak, fragile gunlines? Low morale? Deny them their precious Overwatch? Yeah, Reivers are going to be jamming them into lockers and laughing. A proper sniper unit to make characters go away will also help Tyranids and Guardsmen crumple. Orks, I'm unsure. Reivers seem too small unit-wise to make the green tide crumble, especially if their effect doesn't stack. 10 men with 3 attacks and 2 wounds each seems like enough to make a sizeable dent?
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Jul 10, 2017 17:25
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ANAmal.net posted:I think it's at my house, in Owings Mills. I'll PM everyone the details after I've had a bit more wine. Thanks for taking care of all this, man. I just moved and am without internet at home, so this is the first dose of postin' I've had since Thursday. I might have a lead on a cupola folding tables and a fat mat or two. Lemme slide into those DMs and we'll see what's up.
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Jul 10, 2017 17:25
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HardCoil posted:I just don't understand the concept of "stripped down" MK X armour giving exactly the same save as normal? Because there's only 6 numbers available on a D6 system and it's still better than the 4+ of Carapace armour.
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Jul 10, 2017 17:30
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HardCoil posted:I just don't understand the concept of "stripped down" MK X armour giving exactly the same save as normal? It's the exact same way that all the different smallmarine models of power armor had differences in the fluff that were not reflected on the tabletop. I do honestly wish they'd given Reivers a 4+ save though. Would have made them interesting.
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Jul 10, 2017 17:30
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HardCoil posted:I just don't understand the concept of "stripped down" MK X armour giving exactly the same save as normal? Because it's a game
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Jul 10, 2017 17:40
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Help my cobwebby brain make a not-terrible loadout for my Space Wolves from the Start Collecting box. First, the options present in the build pamphlet are not up to date with 8th edition, correct? I've seen it offer different options than the new Index and when it does I've deferred to the Index. Second, regarding the 10 SW's that come with it - I've opted to make them Grey Hunters, two of them being Pack Leaders (one with Power Fist, one with Power Sword). I made one Wolf Guard Pack leader for fun, armed with a Wolf Claw and Plasma Pistol. Would you recommend I make the one more that my numbers can support? What would you arm him with? I'm trying to make my army more or less what you see is what you get, so I don't want to gently caress up their gear options in the modeling phase.
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Jul 10, 2017 17:44
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Artum posted:10 men with 3 attacks and 2 wounds each seems like enough to make a sizeable dent? Lets do some Mathhammer and find out! Max size Reiver squad vs. max size squad of Boyz. We start things off with a barrage of heavy bolt pistols. Heavy Bolt Pistols seem to be Bolt Pistols with a -1 armor save tacked on, judging by the site description. 9 Primaris will fire 9 of the things at a BS 3+, while the last will throw a shock grenade to disable overwatch and make the Orks return fire in melee less of a problem. Going back to our pistols, this means approximately 2/3rds of the shots will make their mark, for 6 hits. I'll err on the side of caution and assume S4, like a normal bolt pistol. At T4, this means we're hitting these Boyz at a 4+. Another 50% of the shots go through, for a net of 3 making wounds. Their 6+ save is counteracted by a -1 from the Heavy Bolt pistol, so all of the shots that go through make their mark. We get 3 boyz fallen just from the opening volley, taking them down from 30 to 27. Next comes the melee. Fortunately, the strength of a Primaris is exactly the same as that of a bolt pistol, and their BS and WS are equal, so we don't have to recalculate anything! However, we do have to scale up. 10 marines swing 3 times each, with the sergeant getting a 4th as well. That's a whopping 31 attacks heading for the boyz. 31 * (2/3) = 20.6666667 attacks landing. Multiply by (1/2) = 10.3333334 making wounds. Now the Boyz get to save, however, shrugging off 1/6th of the wounds. Multiply for 5/6, get 8.61111117 wounds sticking. That's a total of 11 to 12 Boyz going down, bringing them all the way to 18 left. Fun fact, that's just enough to get them out of Green Tide range! Of course, now comes the counterattack. Lets be charitable and assume we charged into a giant pile of Shoota Boyz, because it'd be kinda silly to commit your infantry linebreakers to diving into an assault manpile. The remaining 17 boyz get 2 attacks each, each hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 4+ just like the Reivers' attacks did. However, presuming the Shock Grenade hits, they'll only hit on a 4+ instead. 34 * (1/2) * (1/2) = 8.5 wounds made. However, Primaris save on a 3+ rather than the 6+ Boyz save on, so they'll weather 2/3rds of those attacks without a problem. 2.83333 wounds stick. Then the Boss Nob comes in. Not only does he swing for 3 attacks, but he also has more strength than our Reiver has toughness. This means he has a 2/3rds chance of wounding instead. 3 * (1/2) * (2/3) * (1/3) = about .333 wounds made. Put this together with the 2.833, and only one Reiver ends up going down for the count. In his place, 12 Orkz have fallen. Not too bad, I'd say. Now for the important question: will this break their morale? 12 Orkz have been slain, and per Mob Rule they now have a leadership on 18. 12+1d6 cannot exceed 18, so no Orkz end up breaking. However, due to the Terror Troops rule, the Orkz subtract 1 from their leadership roll. The chances still aren't great, but 1/6th of the time an Ork will break ranks and run, despite currently outnumbering the Reivers two to one. They aren't raising hell on the Orkz' morale. But I'd say that's a drat good turn, all things considered.
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Jul 10, 2017 18:05
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The Bee posted:Yeah, Reivers are going to be jamming them into lockers and laughing. Great, now I can't think of Reivers without putting them in 50's jock letter jackets.
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Jul 10, 2017 18:07
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I'm actually kind of excited for Reivers being available to the Deathwatch, they're actually cheaper than a normal Kill Team vet. Hopefully they get something like Infiltrate or Scout to get a little more mobility.HardCoil posted:I just don't understand the concept of "stripped down" MK X armour giving exactly the same save as normal? The game's not granular enough; it's closer to power armor than carapace armor.
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Jul 10, 2017 18:21
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TheChirurgeon posted:Because it's a game But... 
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Jul 10, 2017 18:39
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The Bee posted:Lets do some Mathhammer and find out! Max size Reiver squad vs. max size squad of Boyz. If you can get literally any fire on the squad before that combat you stand decent odds of murdering the rest of them through morale too, 3 kills and they're losing d6 guys.
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Jul 10, 2017 18:44
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30 Boyz is 180 so toss a PK on the Nob to even it out.
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Jul 10, 2017 18:48
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Artum posted:If you can get literally any fire on the squad before that combat you stand decent odds of murdering the rest of them through morale too, 3 kills and they're losing d6 guys. Oooh, that's true. I was imagining a hypothetical Reivers vs. Boyz with no interference to see how much Reivers could do on their own, but you're right that even the slightest amount of covering fire will help prune this unit to a ridiculous extent. Power Klaw makes sense as an odds-evener. Only hitting on a 5+ after the Shock Grenade is unfortunate, but wounding on a 2+, denying the Primaris a save bonus, and standing a good chance of killing a Primaris outright. That means the Boyz can get a lot nastier on a follow-up.
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Jul 10, 2017 18:54
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Technowolf posted:Great, now I can't think of Reivers without putting them in 50's jock letter jackets. Jeans with cuffs and greased back duck's rear end hairdo. I'm on board for this take.
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Jul 10, 2017 18:55
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The Bee posted:Oooh, that's true. I was imagining a hypothetical Reivers vs. Boyz with no interference to see how much Reivers could do on their own, but you're right that even the slightest amount of covering fire will help prune this unit to a ridiculous extent. OTOH pistols every turn is sick nasty. That said I don't see why anyone should be running Shoota Boyz this edition.
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Jul 10, 2017 18:58
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HardCoil posted:I just don't understand the concept of "stripped down" MK X armour giving exactly the same save as normal? They're space marines. You can strip out all of the space parts of the armor. Also the poop stuff. They probably have to poop like normal because the suit doesnt recycle it.
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Jul 10, 2017 19:01
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The Bee posted:A proper sniper unit to make characters go away will also help Tyranids and Guardsmen crumple. Your gonna need a hell of a lot of snipers to kill all the synapse in a Nids list. I normally have 2 Malenthropes and a Tervigon (no need for snipers here). So just to kill my basic synapse your snipers need to do 18 wounds (with minus one to hit) and you need to kill the Tervigon (also minus one to hit). That doesn't even consider the other sources of synapse I often bring like Zonethropea, Hive tyrant, and Warriors.
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Jul 10, 2017 19:04
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JesusIsTehCool posted:Your gonna need a hell of a lot of snipers to kill all the synapse in a Nids list. I normally have 2 Malenthropes and a Tervigon (no need for snipers here). So just to kill my basic synapse your snipers need to do 18 wounds (with minus one to hit) and you need to kill the Tervigon (also minus one to hit). That doesn't even consider the other sources of synapse I often bring like Zonethropea, Hive tyrant, and Warriors. Yeah, snipers aren't gonna take out monsters or any proper large HQ - but they will do a number on officers, commisars, apthecaries, ancients, etc.
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Jul 10, 2017 19:08
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:OTOH pistols every turn is sick nasty. I only used Shootas because I don't think committing your small group of melee specialists to charging a giant mob of Choppas is very smart, but still wanted to test the impact Reivers would have against a mob of Boyz. That said, I'm running the test for Choppas, and it doesn't seem . . . too terrible of a result. If we were using Choppas, the Boyz would get 3 hits instead of 2. That's 4 wounds doled out, and if he hits the Power Klaw nob mulches another Primaris with ease. 3 Primaris down, but about half of the squad dead. If we take Artum's advice and give the Reivers covering fire before they go in, that's basically a broken melee squad at the cost of three Reivers. Not bad at all! Of course, the Ork player could then use a strategem to attack first, and that is not a fun day for the Reivers. Assuming nothing but a pistol volley and a Shock Grenade for covering fire hit them this turn, 26 boys belt out 4 attacks each due to Green Tide. Even with the Shock Grenade going off, 26 * 4 * (1/2) * (1/2) * (1/3) averages 8.66666667 wounds, enough to kill half of your squad. That's before the Power Klaw Nob takes down another, halving your Reiver squad. Now you're only dealing about 4 wounds, 16*(2/3)*(1/2)*(5/6). That's about 7 Boyz dead and 2 Command Points sponged up, at the cost of half of a melee unit that the Boyz will tear to pieces next turn. Don't charge Choppas. As for Snipers vs. Synapse, I was thinking small babysitters like Warriors at most. An HQ is going to take a lot more than that to bring down.
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Jul 10, 2017 19:10
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The strategem to let you fight with the chargers doesn't let you fight FIRST - if the Reivers are your only charge that turn or you choose them to fight first, the Orks can't interrupt them.
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Jul 10, 2017 19:14
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JoshTheStampede posted:The strategem to let you fight with the chargers doesn't let you fight FIRST - if the Reivers are your only charge that turn or you choose them to fight first, the Orks can't interrupt them. Oh, poo poo, nevermind then! Thanks for catching that reading. Charge Choppers, but only with proper discretion.
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Jul 10, 2017 19:17
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