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sean10mm posted:Because we can speculate the Democrats might be traitors in some hypothetical future scenario, they're the same as Republicans who actually are being traitors right now? I think a better scenario would be if Germany/France were feeding info to the Democrats. We see them as benevolent the same way the right views Russia.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:39
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:https://twitter.com/NBCPolitics/status/884778150936424448 The Mattering will not be a moment before November 6, 2018
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Jul 11, 2017 15:39
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The left has a propensity to fracture in a way that doesn't exist on the right for some reason. Doubtless there'd be hillary fans hand waving Russian collusion, but it wouldn't be nearly as lock step as it is on the right.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:40
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DreamShipWrecked posted:Let's discuss hypothetical leftist authoritarian states lining up to help out the Democratic party, because Both Sides Are Bad. It was a hypothetical asked. I'm sure this thread has the bandwidth to discuss the possibility in between furious masturbation over the latest tweet that references last night's NYT article or rampant speculation of possible links (which the poster can't verify). They aren't the same level now, no. But people are delirious if they think their particular ideology isn't susceptible to the same groupthink bullshit that currently infests the right. People will pretty much, collectively, always argue that the ends justify the means with few exceptions
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Jul 11, 2017 15:40
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Idk Boon, you can say "both sides both sides " all you want, but when I look at American history it's always the right-wing politicians who are crooks and traitors to America and conservatives who lap up whatever it takes to justify it because their greed and petty hatreds are more important to them than America: Russian collusion, Iran-Contra, Watergate, Nixon torpedoing the Vietnam peace negotiations. Also the civil war when conservatives led an insurrection against the elected government because their guy lost a democratic election. There's no equivalent when it comes to left-of-center Presidents, and it's unlikely it's just all a matter of luck or some magical property of the Democratic party that keeps us from nominating traitors, seems like what the voters in each party want from their politicians is fundamentally different VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 15:41
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twice burned ice posted:The very fact that it's being discussed in this thread by people who mainly identify as democrats should give you a good hint at the answer of whether or not democratic voters would stand for the same sort of Russian corruption of the party. It's maddening to watch the GOP burn democratic norms to the ground to suppress the will of the majority of Americans--it isn't illogical to fantasize about fighting them on their level. But there is a deep ethical gulf between the parties at the moment, and it's pretty telling when one party's platform dominates the popular vote and the other manipulates the rules and suppresses voters to enact their will.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:43
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The fact that when this argument gets thrown at the left it's always a hypothetical kinda says it all.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:43
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I think it's okay to critique the Democratic Party for being opportunistic at the cost of moral integrity sometimes, but as with all hypotheticals, it's not a great jumping off point for discussion if it just exists in a vacuum. What are the conditions that would lead to this hypothetical switch, etc. etc.? By the time you've framed it into a point that makes it interesting, you've constructed such an alternate timeline that you might as well just write a novel instead.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:45
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Has McCain reached peak concern yet? Also isn't the Mueller investigation still just getting started? Last I heard he's still in the process of hiring lawyers. I think this investigation is going to take a long time.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:45
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Anyway, dems on the internet changing their tune is pretty irreverent. I'm confident the democratic candidate wouldn't be hiring the first Russian operative who wandered in their door as their campaign manager (for free no less!), or coordinating with Russia, or get recorded hiring Russian prostitutes to piss on Trump's bed, or...
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Jul 11, 2017 15:45
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Javes posted:What has Cruz done to make him so hated within the Senate? Like, I understand democrats and the American people hating him but it seems literally every member hates him. Please, refer to this historical document: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcEiDY5qBbg
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Jul 11, 2017 15:45
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I'm not so sure why this idea is so controversial and everyone races to a conclusion of 'No, this can't happen to me!' Plenty of left authoritarians or crooked pols on the left camp in history. Leninists, Marxists, Illinois, New Jersey, Philly, and New York politics. It's hypothetical because there has been decades of decline in the right, accelerated by FNC, the stripping of fair radio, etc... but that doesn't mean that the left is immune because of some magical property that none of you can define. Boon fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 15:45
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Boon posted:I'm not so sure why this idea is so controversial and everyone races to a conclusion of 'No, this can't happen to me!' I don't really agree with you, but I also don't understand your references to Illinois, New Jersey, Philly, and New York off-hand.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:46
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Jesus Christ, what is with this thread having to take every forward step and immediately re-cast it into "but really in the end it means that Democrats are terrible and awful and nothing matters because of these strawmen I have asserted to be truth"? So, on the actual matter at hand - mdemone posted:No link, no link, you're the link! The timing that mdemone has put together here is what I think is the most damning: Trump Jr. gets the invite, and the Trump campaign immediately starts talking about how they have a huge upcoming bombshell that's going to completely knock Hillary out of the race, and then as soon as the meeting turns out to have nothing, they back off and hand-wave that bombshell away as non-existent. There's no way you can posit that they weren't going to that meeting expecting to be handed the results of Russian espionage and hacking against Clinton and the DNC, which means it's a criminal conspiracy involving Manafort, Trump Jr., and Kushner. When Mueller makes his case, I expect those three to get completely nailed to the wall. And maybe Trump stays in office until 2020, but if his son and namesake gets thrown into prison, I'll have at least some joyous schadenfreude.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:47
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Boon posted:I'm not so sure why this idea is so controversial and everyone races to a conclusion of 'No, this can't happen to me!' No one is arguing democrats are uncorruptable. They're arguing that democrats and their supporters probably wouldn't turn a blind eye to a soliciting interference in a presidential election from a foreign country, particularly a hostile one. That's an entirely different level of corruption than what you described.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:48
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No Butt Stuff posted:I don't really agree with you, but I also don't understand your references to Illinois, New Jersey, Philly, and New York off-hand. There were/are some corrupt machine politics in those cities and apparently this is equivalent to multiple rightwing Presidents committing treason to get elected or just for ideological reasons and their voters being fine with it now because both sides both sides.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:49
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No Butt Stuff posted:I don't really agree with you, but I also don't understand your references to Illinois, New Jersey, Philly, and New York off-hand. NJ and NY are big-time machine politics states that often legitimately do have both sides acting equally corrupt. Cuomo is a useless, glad-handing shitstain and many NY Dems literally caucus with Republicans. NJ is home of everyone's favorite desperate ambulance-chaser Corey Booker, but most other NJ Dems weren't viewed as much better than the R's until Christie soundly reminded everyone of how bad things can really get.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:49
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twice burned ice posted:No one is arguing democrats are uncorruptable. Particularly right after watching Trump jump into that specific meat grinder. 
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Jul 11, 2017 15:50
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twice burned ice posted:No one is arguing democrats are uncorruptable. Yeah probably not in the next decade. But given 40 years of prep they sure as hell can get there, and this threads general response is that leftists have some sort of magical property that makes them immune to tribal instinct.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:51
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http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/07/10/donald-trump-jr-russian-lawyer-meeting-brit-hume-says-no-evidence-collusionquote:He said Trump Jr. appears to have been "conned" by going to a meeting expecting to receive "dirt" on the Clintons. Yeah, he's totally not at fault here. Actually, he's the victim here!
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Jul 11, 2017 15:52
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Boon posted:Yeah probably not in the next decade. But given 40 years of prep they sure as hell can get there, and this threads general response is that leftists have some sort of magical property that makes them immune to tribal instinct. Hot takes on the 2060 US Presidential election.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:52
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Boon posted:Yeah probably not in the next decade. But given 40 years of prep they sure as hell can get there, and this threads general response is that leftists have some sort of magical property that makes them immune to tribal instinct. The point has already been made, but you are flogging the hell out of a hypothetical. Meanwhile we literally have 60 years worth of the GOP standing on the knife-edge of corruptibility and frequently tumbling into the abyss.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:53
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Boon posted:Yeah probably not in the next decade. But given 40 years of prep they sure as hell can get there, and this threads general response is that leftists have some sort of magical property that makes them immune to tribal instinct. So it's just luck that it's always Republicans committing treason? Seems unlikely. If Democrats didn't care about treason and only wanted to win, there'd be plenty of opportunity for people willing to do it to rise in the party.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:54
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skeleton warrior posted:When Mueller makes his case, I expect those three to get completely nailed to the wall. And maybe Trump stays in office until 2020, but if his son and namesake gets thrown into prison, I'll have at least some joyous schadenfreude. Trump's son taking the fall for him and nothing happening to Trump himself would be a terrible outcome. edit: CmdrRiker posted:http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/07/10/donald-trump-jr-russian-lawyer-meeting-brit-hume-says-no-evidence-collusion "I was totally conned into showing up at this house to have sex with a 12 year old, honest!"
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Jul 11, 2017 15:55
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Due to the speed of this thread, I sometimes miss important things and have to do a lot of catching up (which I assume is normal). This whole thing needs a "Doomsday Clock"-like apparatus that can wax and wane between McCain Minimal Concern and McCain Maximal Concern.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:55
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FizFashizzle posted:The left has a propensity to fracture in a way that doesn't exist on the right for some reason. It's because in the US, "the left" constitutes everyone that isn't a complete loving sociopath regardless of significant differences of opinion.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:56
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skeleton warrior posted:
I think it's going to be awhile before Mueller has his case to make, though. Part of what made the Nixon investigation work so well was how much time they took to make sure they had an absolutely airtight case, and it still feels like we're firmly in the "Looks Real Bad, but not A Smoking Gun" stage of things. Even if a smoking gun comes to light, it'll take some time to process how the hell that's going to play out in any kind proceeding.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:56
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CmdrRiker posted:http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/07/10/donald-trump-jr-russian-lawyer-meeting-brit-hume-says-no-evidence-collusion I'm sure they feel the same way about all of those people who the FBI conned by inviting to meetings ostensibly about setting up terrorist attacks. You can't fault them for the tricksy FBI!
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Jul 11, 2017 15:57
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Boon posted:Yeah probably not in the next decade. But given 40 years of prep they sure as hell can get there, and this threads general response is that leftists have some sort of magical property that makes them immune to tribal instinct. yes anything is possible with time, however this feels like that one sports metaphors where boundaries are changed to suit your argument you want to make against stuff no one else is arguing your first few words actually address the hypothetical; that no, it's not likely that "the left" would be OK with a foreign government interfering with our electoral process just because the ends might justify the means ta da. berserker posted:Trump's son taking the fall for him and nothing happening to Trump himself would be a terrible outcome. if that were the only outcome, sure. keep in mind mueller was hired less than two loving months ago. if we're already in "son of president arrested for colluding with foreign power to influence father's election" territory, it won't just magically stop there.
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Jul 11, 2017 16:00
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Bicyclops posted:I think it's going to be awhile before Mueller has his case to make, though. Part of what made the Nixon investigation work so well was how much time they took to make sure they had an absolutely airtight case, and it still feels like we're firmly in the "Looks Real Bad, but not A Smoking Gun" stage of things. Even if a smoking gun comes to light, it'll take some time to process how the hell that's going to play out in any kind proceeding. I mean, I think this is the smoking gun, it's three top Trump campaign officials going to a meeting with a Russian national expecting to get Russian espionage dirt against Clinton. But I agree that I don't know how this plays out in terms of what Congress does about it probably nothing because GOP tribalism hasn't cracked yet and I agree that it'll be a while before Mueller puts this all together in a set of charges to be brought forward.
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Jul 11, 2017 16:00
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Boon posted:Yeah probably not in the next decade. But given 40 years of prep they sure as hell can get there, and this threads general response is that leftists have some sort of magical property that makes them immune to tribal instinct. Why don't you just move the goalposts one last time to "Democrats are not literal saints" so we can all agree and move on from this dumb point you've completely failed to make.
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Jul 11, 2017 16:01
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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/world/americas/kremlin-adoptions-sanctions-russia.htmlquote:Understanding the connections between adoptions and sanctions offers a lens into the worldview and foreign policy goals of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, and into how even a meeting that really did focus primarily on adoption would also have been about much more. quote:It might not seem obvious what sanctions have to do with American parents’ adoptions of Russian children, which is the topic that the younger Mr. Trump initially said Ms. Veselnitskaya wanted to discuss. Their connection comes down to one word: leverage. Dafuq? So Is it collusion? CmdrRiker fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 16:02
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berserker posted:Trump's son taking the fall for him and nothing happening to Trump himself would be a terrible outcome. I can't imagine Trump's son and Ivanka's husband getting sent to jail are going to do anything but add more dysfunction and internal strife and hatred into an administration that is barely functional already, and I don't believe that anything is going to come out ever that breaks the GOP's tribalism enough that they're willing to impeach/25th/demand a resignation of Trump, so it's the best my broken brain can hope for. quote:"I was totally conned into showing up at this house to have sex with a 12 year old, honest!" 
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Jul 11, 2017 16:05
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https://twitter.com/ericgeller/status/884791254244085760 https://twitter.com/ericgeller/status/884791485568364544 https://twitter.com/chrisgeidner/status/884790382806130689 https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/884791770051215360 https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/884791651922841601 https://twitter.com/SariHorwitz/status/884791488286253057 Literally no idea what the gently caress he's thinking here.
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Jul 11, 2017 16:10
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FizFashizzle posted:The left has a propensity to fracture in a way that doesn't exist on the right for some reason. For example:  which didn't even require proof of any wrongdoing for Democrats not to show up to vote because it seemed shady
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Jul 11, 2017 16:10
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quote:This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and it's government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin. Hmmmm IHaveTheWorstFuckingAttorneys.gif farraday fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 16:10
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Okay, so wait. 1) Trump Jr.'s statement says "this is the full e-mail chain" but it stops with the top line indicating another message from Rob Goldstone that isn't included 2) Trump Jr'.'s statement says "the woman, as she has stated publicly, was not a government official" but within one of the Goldstone e-mails he calls her "the Russian government attorney" Am I misunderstanding this or is Trump Jr. really this stupid/brazen? Edit: Oh, hurrah, the NY Times reporters are already going down this path. So it's not just me.
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Jul 11, 2017 16:11
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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/us/politics/trump-russia-email-clinton.html Times says it has the email.. headline is "Russian Dirt on Clinton? ‘I Love It,’ Donald Trump Jr. Said" The email noose begins to close, slowly.. e;f;b Binary Badger fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 16:11
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mdemone posted:Thanks for reminding me of this; I'll add it to the timeline if I get a chance to work on it today. I'm pretty sure if you go back to the SA politics threads during the Republican convention there will be a bunch of posts from all of us going "WTF, he's bought already?"
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