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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Read that whole Github thing from a page ago and it sounds like the person involved has a lovely therapist and really big mental health issues and did not know how to cover them in anyway or form. Now that's my favorite kind of victim blaming "she should have committed an act that 100% gets you fired because everyone knows your company will illegally discriminate against your health issues"
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Jul 10, 2017 22:07
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Trabisnikof posted:Now that's my favorite kind of victim blaming "she should have committed an act that 100% gets you fired because everyone knows your company will illegally discriminate against your health issues" I'm not blaming her. But that's the reality unfortunately. I guarantee you her mental health issues were 100% the reason she was fired. Companies aren't supposed to discriminate by race or sex either because it's "illegal." They all do.
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Jul 10, 2017 23:08
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:I'm not blaming her. But that's the reality unfortunately. I guarantee you her mental health issues were 100% the reason she was fired. You are victim-blaming. And you also don't seem to understand that lying about a dead relative also gets you fired. At many lovely companies, taking any time off for any reason gets you fired.
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Jul 10, 2017 23:14
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A Chinese umbrella sharing startup has basically gone bust because virtually their entire inventory of 300,000 umbrellas were taken and not given back over a span of about 4 weeks. https://twitter.com/i/moments/884449145318027264
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Jul 10, 2017 23:44
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FlamingLiberal posted:A Chinese umbrella sharing startup has basically gone bust because virtually their entire inventory of 300,000 umbrellas were taken and not given back over a span of about 4 weeks. Perhaps the owners will sadly reflect that maybe there's a reason the bike sharing things use credit cards
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Jul 10, 2017 23:54
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FlamingLiberal posted:A Chinese umbrella sharing startup has basically gone bust because virtually their entire inventory of 300,000 umbrellas were taken and not given back over a span of about 4 weeks. This is like something out of an absurdist French film.
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Jul 11, 2017 01:23
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The NYT reported in March that due to toilet paper theft at a popular tourist site in China, they installed $1,000 machines that use facial recognition scanners to dispense paper because otherwise it was always stolen. They also mention that I guess over there toilet paper is not provided in public restrooms due to common theft.
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Jul 11, 2017 01:30
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FlamingLiberal posted:A Chinese umbrella sharing startup has basically gone bust because virtually their entire inventory of 300,000 umbrellas were taken and not given back over a span of about 4 weeks. The company would have made a killing if they required a deposit of double the value of the umbrella. If they keep it, no biggie AND you have free advertising.
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Jul 11, 2017 01:46
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FlamingLiberal posted:The NYT reported in March that due to toilet paper theft at a popular tourist site in China, they installed $1,000 machines that use facial recognition scanners to dispense paper because otherwise it was always stolen. They also mention that I guess over there toilet paper is not provided in public restrooms due to common theft. Has China not invented those locking toilet roll dispensers that you get in the decadent West?
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Jul 11, 2017 02:16
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Don't really prevent just pulling a bunch off and shoving it in your pocket.
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Jul 11, 2017 02:20
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Yeah sooo much theft-prevention is more cultural/social-contract than an actual obstacle. Most protections that can successfully block a committed thief will make it hard for people to access the resource legitimately.
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Jul 11, 2017 02:30
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The tp theft thing is a thing in a bunch of places. I remember the first time I had the single square one finger wipe method explained by a Filipino. I am aware of several crew nationalities that hide all the public tp whenever thier vessels pull into port.
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Jul 11, 2017 03:08
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BrandorKP posted:The tp theft thing is a thing in a bunch of places. I remember the first time I had the single square one finger wipe method explained by a Filipino. I am aware of several crew nationalities that hide all the public tp whenever thier vessels pull into port. What kind of vessels?
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Jul 11, 2017 03:12
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Bulk carriers and containerships are mostly where I see that happen. I board just about every except tankers pretty regularly. Edit: knowing when the tp will be under lock and key and I'll have to ask for it is something I have 15+ years of experience in now. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 03:35
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BrandorKP posted:Bulk carriers and containerships are mostly where I see that happen. I board just about every except tankers pretty regularly.  ?
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Jul 11, 2017 03:38
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Buncha merchant mariners on SA. Unprovable unverifiable but true film trivia. My boss is how the phrase "Take what you can and give nothing back" got into the movie. It's a oldschool line handling saying he used to drum into his students, one of who was consulted for the movie.
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Jul 11, 2017 03:45
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BrandorKP posted:Buncha merchant mariners on SA. Have you ever made a thread about your job? It sounds super interesting
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Jul 11, 2017 06:05
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BirdOfPlay posted:It is disingenuous as all hell to blame her for getting fired over this. Her manager was straight up looking for reasons to fire her, because the manager could force her into a situation where it was all "above board" doesn't mean she has equal blame. PIPs aren't created in a day. It was almost certainly in process of being created when she spoke to her boss about her mental health issues causing her work problems. The medical leave her manager suggested probably would have been the best thing CAE could have done since it would have stopped the PIP from happening and put her in a much stronger position when she came back to get accommodations for her illness or to get disability or legal proof that work knew for wrongful termination. Susan Fowler's blog about Uber had a number of things you could point to and say "yes, this was clearly wrong and should not have happened." CAE's post about Github had fewer such things happen with her. Certainly the pull request nitpicking was clearly an issue, as was the data scientist's reaction to her comment about the survey. The rest and her firing could be the harassment she thinks it is, or it could also be explained by the problems her manager brought up being real issues. "Communications issues" as Arsenic Lupin pointed out could be due to the unfortunate standard women in business are held to, or it could be related to people's reaction to her trans status. But her manager was female, and she worked on a team with 5 women and 1 man, 2 (including CAE) were trans and 3 were women of color. If CAE was the only one having "communications issues" then maybe they really were communications issues.
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Jul 11, 2017 06:10
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Have you ever made a thread about your job? It sounds super interesting There is a merchant marine thread. I don't sail, I do mostly safety of life at sea things with hazardous, dangerous and expensive cargoes. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3393222 I post small things occasionally. It's a very small world in my proffesion unfortunately. Won't post most things unless I get into something else.
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Jul 11, 2017 06:37
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The GitHub thing is particularly galling because they hired her for the express purpose of listening to her input on inclusion/emotional work environment issues. They sought her out in the knowledge that she's an activist, she initially balked at the offer until they made the case that they were working on their corporate culture. They reached out to her for that specific reason. And then they hosed her over when she expressed opinions and tried to influence the culture in ways that she thought were more sensitive to the experiences of: women, trans women, people dealing with mental illness, etc. Many of us (women/LGBT/disabled/etc) feel as if we cannot be permitted to contribute to the industry and to open source culture because of the covert and overt hostility of those who call the shots. The standard response to this problem from the tech world is to shrug and just say, effectively, if you can't stand the heat, get back in the kitchen. The relative absence of women, queer people, people of color, disabled people, and any other marginalized people in tech IS A PROBLEM. One of the causes of that problem is the tone deafness of the geek powers that be. The self-justifying, hollow ideology of "meritocracy".
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Jul 11, 2017 11:56
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Neon Noodle posted:The GitHub thing is particularly galling because they hired her for the express purpose of listening to her input on inclusion/emotional work environment issues. They sought her out in the knowledge that she's an activist, she initially balked at the offer until they made the case that they were working on their corporate culture. They reached out to her for that specific reason. And then they hosed her over when she expressed opinions and tried to influence the culture in ways that she thought were more sensitive to the experiences of: women, trans women, people dealing with mental illness, etc. Well we are only getting her side of the story in that article. And her article gives the strong impression that she was the only one affected and not the rest of the team that is just as diverse as she is. Combined with the rest of her website that makes her seem like a person that is unpleasant to be around, I believe in this case it actually is more of a personal problem rather than a cultural problem.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:13
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BabyFur Denny posted:Well we are only getting her side of the story in that article. You know sexist pricks have said that in response to every article about sexism since time immemorial, right? You know what the other side's gonna be? "Nuh uh, she deserved it." And then you'll go "see, she deserved it." There's always an excuse to defend the status quo if that's what's most important to you.
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Jul 11, 2017 16:40
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:You know sexist pricks have said that in response to every article about sexism since time immemorial, right? You know what the other side's gonna be? "Nuh uh, she deserved it." And then you'll go "see, she deserved it." There's always an excuse to defend the status quo if that's what's most important to you. Well my argument is that even her side of the story strongly indicates she was the problem.
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Jul 11, 2017 17:38
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BabyFur Denny posted:Well my argument is that even her side of the story strongly indicates she was the problem. This is why Silicon Valley is so hostile to anyone "different" - they don't fit in effortlessly, so it's easier not to try. Unity through everyone being kinda similar.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:09
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BarbarianElephant posted:This is why Silicon Valley is so hostile to anyone "different" - they don't fit in effortlessly, so it's easier not to try. Unity through everyone being kinda similar. Well the rest of the team ("5 women and one man: two of us trans, three women of color") didn't seem to face any issues, even though it was just as "different".
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Jul 11, 2017 18:21
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BabyFur Denny posted:Well my argument is that even her side of the story strongly indicates she was the problem. Yes dummy, that's what every sexist prick says about every woman's account of sexism. BabyFur Denny posted:Well the rest of the team ("5 women and one man: two of us trans, three women of color") didn't seem to face any issues, even though it was just as "different". Calling trans people "it" now, cool.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:22
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:
The team.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:30
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Yeah I'm referring to a team (and rests of them) as "it", I hope that's still correct and okay to do. 
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Jul 11, 2017 18:56
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BabyFur Denny posted:Well the rest of the team ("5 women and one man: two of us trans, three women of color") didn't seem to face any issues, even though it was just as "different". quote:In the past several months GitHub has fired at least three transgender engineers and many more cisgender women. Prominent people who were trying to effect positive change in the company culture have quit. They canceled a conference when they got called out for having an all-male speaker lineup. In a return to its meritocratic roots, the company has decided to move forward with a merit-based stock option program despite criticism from employees who tried to point out its inherent unfairness. And the widely publicized results of the open source survey show that the company's platform is still not appealing to anyone but straight white guys.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:18
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"They were just as 'different '."
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Jul 11, 2017 20:05
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Ah yeah, collective nouns can be tricky. The rest of her team weren't hired to be diversity activists though. And again, your criticisms of her are absolutely boilerplate and you'll never find a single story about sexism that doesn't have somebody responding exactly like you did. Everybody who ever has something bad happen to them deserved it, because the world is Just.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:09
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Ah yeah, collective nouns can be tricky. The rest of her team weren't hired to be diversity activists though. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:And again, your criticisms of her are absolutely boilerplate and you'll never find a single story about sexism that doesn't have somebody responding exactly like you did. Everybody who ever has something bad happen to them deserved it, because the world is Just.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:23
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BabyFur Denny posted:Well the rest of the team ("5 women and one man: two of us trans, three women of color") didn't seem to face any issues, even though it was just as "different". They really put all the "different" people on one team? Yikes.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:23
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BabyFur Denny posted:Yes, it was the entire team's mission. It's the underlying motivation for doing the knee-jerk response, dummy. I know you think you're a special unique snowflake and nothing you think could ever come from indoctrinated bias, but there's a reason somebody like you says exactly what you said every single time a woman complains about sexism, and it's not because you're all really cool observant guys who know what's what. "That cop shooting victim was no angel" -- Denny
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Jul 11, 2017 20:28
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The reason: communism
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Jul 11, 2017 20:29
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BarbarianElephant posted:They really put all the "different" people on one team? Yikes.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:30
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:It's the underlying motivation for doing the knee-jerk response, dummy. I know you think you're a special unique snowflake and nothing you think could ever come from indoctrinated bias, but there's a reason somebody like you says exactly what you said every single time a woman complains about sexism, and it's not because you're all really cool observant guys who know what's what. I know exactly where you're coming from, and I think people need to check their biases and implicit assumptions.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:39
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Ah yeah, collective nouns can be tricky. The rest of her team weren't hired to be diversity activists though. And again, your criticisms of her are absolutely boilerplate and you'll never find a single story about sexism that doesn't have somebody responding exactly like you did. Everybody who ever has something bad happen to them deserved it, because the world is Just. There can be both inherent sexism in the workplace and the individual person can be bad at communicating. And honestly, being bad at communicating is fine as long as you're willing to work on it (as she was), and as long as the manager in charge of training you is competent and clear in what areas you need to improve (which was demonstrably not the case - malice or incompetence, take your pick). The clearest indicator of this was the manager criticizing her performance during team meetings, and her notes on her improvement in every area other than in team meetings. Nobody taught either of them what questions to ask or how to properly demonstrate that communication has improved. Now, it's possible that her manager did cover this and it was her bad for missing it, but given the techbro culture and Github's actions against other people, I think it's more likely the fault of her manager. The real question is how much of it was malice and how much of it was incompetence. Are they just not training managers to properly manage people? Are they ignoring what happens to lower level employees when their managers aren't trained properly? Is this systemic and does it go higher up the food chain (where the manager's manager is poo poo and their manager is poo poo, and so on?)? lovely management practices absolutely do drive people away, and that might be the root of why people are leaving or being asked to leave.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:42
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To be frank, a goal of "more empathetic communication" seems extremely up to interpretation and is basically a perfect smokescreen to be able to claim "you didn't improve enough." Aren't these things supposed to be SMART goals?
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Jul 11, 2017 20:44
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Dirk the Average posted:There can be both inherent sexism in the workplace and the individual person can be bad at communicating. That is always the second comment under a story about sexism. "Yeah bias exists but this time she really did deserve it!" Every time is This Time, because bias always feels like a sincere and perfectly logical thought to have.
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Jul 11, 2017 21:18
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