Atlas Hugged posted:

I'm reading Long Sun right now and I've noticed two things. First, it's the first book by Wolfe I've read that isn't first person. So that jumped out at me right away. Second, it's amazingly slow but really captivating. I'm struck by how far removed from New Sun it is. It really shows the range of talent he has as an author.

Juaguocio posted:

I especially loved, er, ah, Remora's, um, dithering, Incus's insistence on emphasizing the important points, and Oreb's fantastic interjections.

Nebakenezzer posted:

After reading the Long Sun I've come to the conclusion George RR Martin does a homage to Oreb in Song of Ice and Fire. Though I also started to become terrified of the idea that SOIF is also set on a Generational ship, like the Whorl...

Chichevache posted:

Please elaborate.

Nebakenezzer posted:

This is going to be some proper spergin' here, so I apologize in advance. This is not going to be any sort of good argument, just a vague suspicion. I should add I've read SOIF up to its current volume, but stopped watching the TV series around...season 3?

Well, I know Martin is a fan of Wolfe - when I re-read The book of the Old Sun the last volume actually had an extensive cover blurb praising it from Martin. Since I've been reading what books of Gene Wolfe my dad has, I've noticed one or two little homages in SOIF that Martian has - Oreb as I mentioned, though I noticed the underhanded incestuous twins in Shadow of the Torturer - while not exactly like Cercei and Jamie Lannister, I wondered if they might have inspired the Lannister Twins.

In the last book, A Dance of Dragons, Martin reveals a few things, though because we only hear about these things though people who have a medieval world view, it's a little hard what to make of them. In particular, we hear about some infrastructure from old Valeria, a high road that is "demon haunted." We also learn that Danerys is not just immune to fire - she's immune to disease as well. It got me thinking a bit about the Valerians, and wondering if Martin was doing something clever, by hiding things behind fantasy tropes. (It's kind of a moot point really - technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, so maybe the old Valyerians had just - lots of it.)

I fell down the rabbit hole when I read "The World of Ice and Fire." [Yes, I enjoyed the hell out of a lavishly produced book about this made up world. DON'T JUDGE ME] Ahem. Anyway, it uses a narrative frame: the book is fictionally written (a confusing concept for most, straight forward for Wolfe readers) by a maester of the Citadel. This Maester is smart, scholarly, and above all, rational. This perspective is occasionally used to great comedic effect when the Maester comments on events that the readers of SOIF have actually been witness to. The Maester always comes down on the rational explanation - and we as the readers know 'no, it's actually the fantastical version you dismissed.' As the book goes on, a couple surprising things jumped out at me. First, a group of men everyone described as 'hairy' (the Whalers of Ibben for readers) - are actually neanderthals - the maester gives a more through description and it's all there: heavy brow, strong jaw, on average a lot stronger than 'other peoples'. This is reinforced when the Maester, being through, tells us something like 'these northern men can actually intermarry with southerners - their union produces stillborn children.' When talking about the same sort of people in the south, the Maester mentions that you *can* have viable offspring, so I guess evolutionary speaking, they are closer to the average human. This has a connection to our world - most of you probably know that Neanderthals didn't die out, pushed to extinction by homo sapiens. They actually were absorbed by us instead, so now all humans around the world have a little bit of Neanderthal in them, save people living in Sub-Saharan Africa.

This set my imagination off and running, and I began looking at the book, wondering if there was anything else that a medieval scholar would see one way, but a modern might see another. The Children of the Forest sort of resemble those 'hobbit people' recently discovered, and the Giants do resemble certain ancestors and relations we humans had on the family tree. Aside from the probable existence of Mermaids (or crab people or something) the book mentions the existence of certain ancient structures that are usually subterranean that pre date humans living there. In addition to being seemingly pointless, they are also constructed by an unknown method - the author describes them as "seamless", which makes me think of concrete. These structures put me in mind of going subterranean in the Long Sun. While the Chronology is a little vauge, the Maester confirms something in his discussion of the world - that the "great darkness" that is a legend in the Seven Kingdoms also happened across the world, as far as the neo-China, putting a factual basis on something I'd just assumed was a legend. This put me in mind of the malfunctions of the Long Sun (though I guess it could be worse - Silk I think remembers when the sun went out - then turned on again on full blast, burning people and causing fires.) There's also Bran the Builder - who in the vauge Chronology of the Book has showing up at the time of the first men, and credits him for the construction of some of the Wall and some of the more fantastic castles of the realm. With my imagination running, I wonder if this Bran the Builder was one - or several - remnants of whatever race built these weird structures, or those colossal citadels on the eastern edge of the world. Once again, the line between magic and technology becomes fuzzy.

There's also the TV opening. If you notice the Map for Game of Thrones is on the inside of a globe - like the whole thing was in a Dyson sphere.

This way probably lies madness, so if you'll excuse me I'm going to scour the books for mentions of celestial phenomena. Have they a moon?! Does this moon rise and set? Wait - have they mentioned the SUN rises and sets? Oh! In the book they give complete genealogies of the Targaryen Kings and Queens. Maybe I can figure out who is more pure fire person based on their ability to successfully conceive with normal humans!

Nebakenezzer posted:

Nebakenezzer posted:

This is going to be some proper spergin' here, so I apologize in advance. This is not going to be any sort of good argument, just a vague suspicion. I should add I've read SOIF up to its current volume, but stopped watching the TV series around...season 3?

Well, I know Martin is a fan of Wolfe - when I re-read The book of the Old Sun the last volume actually had an extensive cover blurb praising it from Martin. Since I've been reading what books of Gene Wolfe my dad has, I've noticed one or two little homages in SOIF that Martian has - Oreb as I mentioned, though I noticed the underhanded incestuous twins in Shadow of the Torturer - while not exactly like Cercei and Jamie Lannister, I wondered if they might have inspired the Lannister Twins.

In the last book, A Dance of Dragons, Martin reveals a few things, though because we only hear about these things though people who have a medieval world view, it's a little hard what to make of them. In particular, we hear about some infrastructure from old Valeria, a high road that is "demon haunted." We also learn that Danerys is not just immune to fire - she's immune to disease as well. It got me thinking a bit about the Valerians, and wondering if Martin was doing something clever, by hiding things behind fantasy tropes. (It's kind of a moot point really - technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, so maybe the old Valyerians had just - lots of it.)

I fell down the rabbit hole when I read "The World of Ice and Fire." [Yes, I enjoyed the hell out of a lavishly produced book about this made up world. DON'T JUDGE ME] Ahem. Anyway, it uses a narrative frame: the book is fictionally written (a confusing concept for most, straight forward for Wolfe readers) by a maester of the Citadel. This Maester is smart, scholarly, and above all, rational. This perspective is occasionally used to great comedic effect when the Maester comments on events that the readers of SOIF have actually been witness to. The Maester always comes down on the rational explanation - and we as the readers know 'no, it's actually the fantastical version you dismissed.' As the book goes on, a couple surprising things jumped out at me. First, a group of men everyone described as 'hairy' (the Whalers of Ibben for readers) - are actually neanderthals - the maester gives a more through description and it's all there: heavy brow, strong jaw, on average a lot stronger than 'other peoples'. This is reinforced when the Maester, being through, tells us something like 'these northern men can actually intermarry with southerners - their union produces stillborn children.' When talking about the same sort of people in the south, the Maester mentions that you *can* have viable offspring, so I guess evolutionary speaking, they are closer to the average human. This has a connection to our world - most of you probably know that Neanderthals didn't die out, pushed to extinction by homo sapiens. They actually were absorbed by us instead, so now all humans around the world have a little bit of Neanderthal in them, save people living in Sub-Saharan Africa.

This set my imagination off and running, and I began looking at the book, wondering if there was anything else that a medieval scholar would see one way, but a modern might see another. The Children of the Forest sort of resemble those 'hobbit people' recently discovered, and the Giants do resemble certain ancestors and relations we humans had on the family tree. Aside from the probable existence of Mermaids (or crab people or something) the book mentions the existence of certain ancient structures that are usually subterranean that pre date humans living there. In addition to being seemingly pointless, they are also constructed by an unknown method - the author describes them as "seamless", which makes me think of concrete. These structures put me in mind of going subterranean in the Long Sun. While the Chronology is a little vauge, the Maester confirms something in his discussion of the world - that the "great darkness" that is a legend in the Seven Kingdoms also happened across the world, as far as the neo-China, putting a factual basis on something I'd just assumed was a legend. This put me in mind of the malfunctions of the Long Sun (though I guess it could be worse - Silk I think remembers when the sun went out - then turned on again on full blast, burning people and causing fires.) There's also Bran the Builder - who in the vauge Chronology of the Book has showing up at the time of the first men, and credits him for the construction of some of the Wall and some of the more fantastic castles of the realm. With my imagination running, I wonder if this Bran the Builder was one - or several - remnants of whatever race built these weird structures, or those colossal citadels on the eastern edge of the world. Once again, the line between magic and technology becomes fuzzy.

There's also the TV opening. If you notice the Map for Game of Thrones is on the inside of a globe - like the whole thing was in a Dyson sphere.

This way probably lies madness, so if you'll excuse me I'm going to scour the books for mentions of celestial phenomena. Have they a moon?! Does this moon rise and set? Wait - have they mentioned the SUN rises and sets? Oh! In the book they give complete genealogies of the Targaryen Kings and Queens. Maybe I can figure out who is more pure fire person based on their ability to successfully conceive with normal humans!

Huzanko posted:

This makes sense if you've read Martin's other SF works like the Haviland Tuff books, which I enjoy quite a bit.

Nebakenezzer posted:

Nebakenezzer posted:

I haven't read anything else by Martin, but now I want to.

my bony fealty posted:

Gotta have faith, in Wolfe!

Nakar posted:

Also I didn't notice there is no "of" in the title for like three solid months.

Nebakenezzer posted:

I haven't read anything else by Martin, but now I want to.

Snowdog79 posted:

Track down the short story "Sandkings." Fast moving, set in an intriguing world, and one of the most downright creepy things I have ever read.

Lex Talionis posted:

Don't feel too bad, I first read it over ten years ago (and re-read it twice in the intervening years) and didn't notice until...one minute ago when I read your post. Wow. I originally read it in the two book omnibuses but still...

Substantive comment: I really like a lot of aspects of Long Sun but it's a bit tough to recommend, or re-read, because as it progresses it gets more and more drawn out with little groups of characters slowly roaming the setting looking for other groups and struggling to communicate with each other. I think of it as a symptom of Late Wolfe (or perhaps just Mature Wolfe) work: it becomes obsessed with the subtle tensions of individual conversations at the expense of any sense of energy in the overall plot; too interested in shuffling characters constantly among groups to see how all the permutations of weird personalities interact with each other. Long Sun has a great concept and setup with the ship and the gods and a really likable protagonist in Silk, but it feels like there's not all that much payoff. Short Sun and especially Wizard Knight have some of the same eccentricities as far as conversation obsession but they have a lot more interesting things happening all the way through, in my opinion. Then in later books, like Home Fires and Borrowed Man, the arid focus on conversation intensifies still further and crowds out other aspects of the novels still more. Also (sorry, now I'm just rambling trying to come to grips with why Wolfe's later work doesn't appeal to me as much as his masterpieces) the density of thought-provoking statements in dialogue is huge in New Sun--nearly every conversation has some fascinating element to it--and still well above most authors in Long Sun, Short Sun, and Wizard Knight, but then it drops off more and more in the later books.

The Vosgian Beast posted:

http://thesometime.com/blog/a-rigor-of-chessmasters-not-of-angels-gene-wolfe-and-literature-as-puzzle/

quote:

Beneath the narrative mystery-solving, on Wolfe’s part as on his readers’, runs a thoroughly simplistic rationalism — every mystery, it promises, will be explained, every clue find its place — and a deep hostility to subtlety, nuance, hint, or indeterminacy.

quote:

[3] E.g. for some reason he prefers prehistoric animals’ scientific names (e.g. “smilodon”) over more evocative descriptors (“saber-toothed tiger”).

The Vosgian Beast posted:

http://thesometime.com/blog/a-rigor-of-chessmasters-not-of-angels-gene-wolfe-and-literature-as-puzzle/

Benson Cunningham posted:

I'm amused that the author of the initial blog post complains that nothing is left oblique while referencing another critical review that calls out a list of unanswered questions.

The Vosgian Beast posted:

I mean that review was written by David "Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle" Auerbach who somehow did not get Hethor's really obvious motivations which was the first warning sign.

Atlas Hugged posted:

As for Long Sun, I did get a little tired of Wolfe starting a moment of action with a cliffhanger, then immediately cutting off after a confused shout, and then resuming with some or several of the characters in the incident a few hours later calmly talking about it. I guess it makes sense given that Horn wrote the whole thing so it's actually mostly pieced together recollections and discussions of events he participated in rather than the events themselves, but it was starting to feel cheap towards the end.

angel opportunity posted:

I found a podcast that did a really in-depth reading of Fifth Head of Cerberus if anyone is interested. I'm listening to the first ep they cover it and it's pretty good:

http://alzabosoup.libsyn.com/

angel opportunity posted:

I found a podcast that did a really in-depth reading of Fifth Head of Cerberus if anyone is interested. I'm listening to the first ep they cover it and it's pretty good:

http://alzabosoup.libsyn.com/

angel opportunity posted:

I found a podcast that did a really in-depth reading of Fifth Head of Cerberus if anyone is interested. I'm listening to the first ep they cover it and it's pretty good:

http://alzabosoup.libsyn.com/

my bony fealty posted:

I got 'The Best of Gene Wolfe' short story collection from my local library and it's real good. If you haven't read his short stories, do so, they're incredible. At least the ones in the 'Best of' are.

'The Death of Dr. Island' and 'Seven American Nights' really stand out. I finished the latter with the distinct impression that I missed A LOT, even more than normal with Wolfe. I gather that it's some sort of hosed up passion play and therefore Nadan is probably black-bagged and killed off-page but beyond that I got nothing. Luckily it works very well as just a great story without any further analysis too.