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Bolow posted:Uh what. Dive comp is literally all about annihilating a target before they can even react. The game hasn't been this bursty since the closed beta. I mean there's a point to be had that Blizzard favors things that mitigate and prevent damage over things that deal damage. Orisa is a great example, like a week or two after release her damage gets nerfed and her barriers get a buff. Winston's shield got a completely unnecessary buff. Mercy got two buffs one of which makes her harder to kill and the other gives her literal invincibility when she uses her rez. D.Va's damage got dropped which leaves her far more focused on defense matrix, which was also buffed afterwards. Now they dumpstered Hog's entire purpose and what are they gonna do, they're going to buff his sustainability/defensiveness somehow. Yeah, dive is dominant at the moment thanks to various factors, but Blizzard really does love to make adjustments to things which blunt offensive punch and bolster mitigation and healing. In fact, the reason dive is such a good strategy is that done correctly it cuts a team's healing off at the knees which is the A-number-one way of actually making headway in killing things.
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Jul 12, 2017 01:11
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Kai Tave posted:Yeah, dive is dominant at the moment thanks to various factors, but Blizzard really does love to make adjustments to things which blunt offensive punch and bolster mitigation and healing. Indeed. Lets look at major balance changes from day one. Jun 14 2016-- Widowmaker Bodyshot from 150->120, McCree FTH from 6x70->6x45 Jul 19 2016-- Ana introduced. Defense Matrix redesign. McCree accidentally given a railgun. Zenyatta increased to 200 HP, ~10% damage nerf, Trance buff. Jul 26 2016-- Ana mag size 8->10, 20% RoF boost. Took away McCree's railgun. Sep 1 2016-- Defense Matrix slight nerf, Hanzo projectile speed increased, size decreased. Genji nerf (triple jump fix, dragonblade 8s->6s). Lucio speed boost toned down. Mercy healing rate buff (20%). Hook 1.1. Discord 50%->30%, primary fire damage 40->46. Oct 11 2016-- Widow scope speed buff, Biotic Grenade radius buff. Nov 15 2016-- Sombra introduced. Ults blanket nerfed! Nanoboost move speed buff removed. D.Va given 100 more HP, and faster move when shooting. Lucio 10% heal nerf. Mercy self healing to 1s. Pharah jump jet buff, slight rocket buff. Soldier damage from 17->20. Widow charge speed buff. Zarya charge nerf. (20%). Dec 13 2016-- Sombra boop voice line. Symmetra overhaul. Jan 24 2017-- Biotic grenade from 100% to 50%, duration nerf. D.Va swapped 200 armor for 200 hp, big damage nerf on her guns. HOOK 2.0! Sombra hack buffed. Feb 28 2017-- Bastion rework. Overall DPS nerf, mobility buff. (also 70% dr nanobastion). Roadhog primary fire spread buff, first hook nerf (pull to 3.5m instead of 2.0m, cooldown 6s->8s). Winston head shrunk. Mercy res buff. Mar 3 2017-- Bastion nerfed (ironclad 35%->20%), stacking dr buffs nerfed. Mar 21 2017-- Orisa introduced. Ana damage nerf from 80->60. Junkrat no longer suicides. Sombra hack/stealth/translocator buffs. Winston shield cooldown buff. Zenyatta weapon spread removed. Apr 11 2017-- Lucio rework, Orisa head shrunk. May 23 2017-- Wall climbing changes, Hanzo draw speed buff, Orisa shield cooldown reduced (a lot!), dps nerf. Reaper ammo refill on wraith form. Soldier damage 20->19. Jun 20 2017-- Reaper life steal. Roadhog dumpstering. McCree deadeye buff. I see, I think, 1 pure ttk buff that didn't almost completely get reverted (Soldier damage buff). Oh and Zenyatta does 1 more damage per orb than he did on release.
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Jul 12, 2017 01:48
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Buffing his defenses sounds like it would either homogenize him or still not really get him played more, since Roadhog was always picked for his offense.
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Jul 12, 2017 01:56
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The Blue Caboose posted:I see, I think, 1 pure ttk buff that didn't almost completely get reverted (Soldier damage buff). lucio and recon bastion's gun buffs haven't been reverted yet either
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Jul 12, 2017 02:00
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when they gonna fix Bastion
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Jul 12, 2017 02:06
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Bleck posted:when they gonna fix Bastion Anywhere between six months and never.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:07
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Give his self heal a temporary speed boost
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Jul 12, 2017 02:16
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Yesterday in gold level comp on console a 12 year old told me that Symmetra was the most overpowered character in the game and desperately needed a nerf. C'mon Blizz!!!
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Jul 12, 2017 02:35
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Montalvo posted:Yesterday in gold level comp on console a 12 year old told me that Symmetra was the most overpowered character in the game and desperately needed a nerf. C'mon Blizz!!! Honestly on console Symmetra is probably pretty brutal given that everyone else is aiming with controllers.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:38
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Kai Tave posted:Honestly on console Symmetra is probably pretty brutal given that everyone else is aiming with controllers. Oh for sure, but a quick / smart hero switch will absolutely ruin my day if I'm shredding with turrets. A good Winston or Pharah ruins my day.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:41
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Being able to hop around like crazy while your auto lock beam does all the work is pretty hosed up when your opponent is trying to track your erratic movements with sticks. Luckily Winston exists and shits on her day. Surprisingly, once you've learned how to barrier dance properly, Orisa also shits on Symmetra.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:44
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Manatee Cannon posted:lucio and recon bastion's gun buffs haven't been reverted yet either True. Lucio went from "stop that tickles" to "oh he's shooting maybe i should move" and Bastion in recon mode went from "really bad soldier" to "mostly bad soldier". Bastion in siege mode lost a metric butt ton of dps though. The Lucio change was relevant because Lucio is relevant. So Lucio does 20 damage per hit instead of 16 at release and Soldier does 19 damage per hit instead of 17 at release.
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Jul 12, 2017 04:11
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I love seeing a Symmetra when I'm playing Rein on console. Nothing a few hammer swings won't take care of.
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Jul 12, 2017 06:10
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Kassoon posted:Stop 👏 nerfing 👏 damage 👏 and 👏 buffing 👏 mitigation
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Jul 12, 2017 06:38
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Re: Roadhog, Harbleu, a pro player and streamer who specializes in tanks and is probably most known for his Roadhog play, weighs in on the changes.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:32
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No ground breaking insights but an excellent summary of the issues hog faces. I still don't like "but this other thing is bad too" arguments but it is weird that scatter arrow has remained untouched for as long as I can remember. That skill is terrible.
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Jul 12, 2017 19:01
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Kai Tave posted:Re: Roadhog, Harbleu, a pro player and streamer who specializes in tanks and is probably most known for his Roadhog play, weighs in on the changes. it's nice to see my opinions reflected pretty much entirely by one of the best roadhog players around. especially the reason why they changed him because I don't understand it
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Jul 12, 2017 19:13
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Redundant posted:No ground breaking insights but an excellent summary of the issues hog faces. I still don't like "but this other thing is bad too" arguments but it is weird that scatter arrow has remained untouched for as long as I can remember. That skill is terrible. It's an argument that has to be addressed if the impetus for significant balance changes is legitimately going to be "people think this is unfun." Once you've declared that this is reason enough for something to get nerfed into the ground then you either have to own it, in which case you need to explain where the fun/unfun divide actually lives with regard to things like scatter arrow, Mercy rez, and the million and one other things people regularly complain about as being "unfun," or understand that it's going to be called out as bullshit.
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Jul 12, 2017 19:14
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what I really dislike about their claim that the roadhog change was because people didn't like it is that they also say in that same post that they don't make balance decisions based on people getting mad at things you can't have it both ways there, jeff. it's pretty clear which one of those statements is actually true
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Jul 12, 2017 19:18
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I don't agree with the changes either but I believe their reasoning for it is that tanks should strictly do low damage and have high mitigation. All their tank changes up to this point has been in keeping to that ideal and homogenizing their roles
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Jul 12, 2017 19:21
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more one hit kills, less survivability for everyone pls.
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Jul 12, 2017 19:24
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At this stage I don't care about heroes, I just want them to delete 2cp maps, the most unfun thing for me is thinking "oh I have a half hour spare, quick game of overwatch time" and hitting loving Anubis.
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Jul 12, 2017 19:27
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Kassoon posted:I don't agree with the changes either but I believe their reasoning for it is that tanks should strictly do low damage and have high mitigation. All their tank changes up to this point has been in keeping to that ideal and homogenizing their roles A). Homogenization is bad, too much of it makes for less interesting games (and in fact this is one of Harbleu's main critiques of Roadhog right now, that he used to have an identity and Blizzard threw it away so now he has no purpose and does nothing special that you'd really want to take him for) and B). Blizzard's constant fixation on reducing damage and buffing mitigation is stupid and further warps the game towards one of two states, either exploiting healing/mitigation to the point that everything becomes a slow lovely meatgrinder (Ana + triple tank) or alpha striking as hard as you can simply in order to actually make kills happen (dive). Manatee Cannon posted:what I really dislike about their claim that the roadhog change was because people didn't like it is that they also say in that same post that they don't make balance decisions based on people getting mad at things Remember the other day when you told me that you trusted the same people who do this dumb stuff to fix what they deliberately broke? This is why I don't.
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Jul 12, 2017 19:27
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they'll fix it. that doesn't mean they'll fix it the way I want them to and I don't like the idea of making changes based on people not liking something, but that's different from the idea that roadhog will be bad forever
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Jul 12, 2017 19:30
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If you want to see the spooky ghost of christmas future just go look at wow pvp or heroes of the storm
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Jul 12, 2017 19:30
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Manatee Cannon posted:they'll fix it. that doesn't mean they'll fix it the way I want them to and I don't like the idea of making changes based on people not liking something, but that's different from the idea that roadhog will be bad forever I feel like it's splitting some hairs to say that "Roadhog won't be bad forever" if the end result is reworking the character into something that plays entirely differently from what people liked about the character in the first place. Like yeah you'll be able to pick the character named Roadhog and maybe do a thing but Roadhog was never about mitigation or whatever it is Blizzard is going to try and shoehorn him into so is it really "fixing" him at that point if the character's previous identity is still in the trash?
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Jul 12, 2017 19:36
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I don't see how it is. they decided to change the way he plays because they don't like the way he does now (their reasoning for it is lame tho). if he's good at the end of it, that's what matters for balance. what I don't agree with is that he needs a new niche or that the old one was bad, but that's a completely different argument from "is it balanced"
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Jul 12, 2017 19:48
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Roadhog will be given a deployable barrier. Give him a literal meatshield. 
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Jul 12, 2017 20:00
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Dick Trauma posted:Give him a literal meatshield. Broken hooks return armor packs to Roadhog.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:20
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turtlecrunch posted:Obviously Roadhog needs a shield Yeah just quoting myself what are you gonna do about it
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Jul 12, 2017 20:28
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Know what I loved doing as Roadhog? Hooking a tank, then pressing Q and watching them fly off into the distance. Let Roadhog do that with his hook regularly. Like, let him press the hook button a gain as you reel them in to toss them away instead of hook comboing. It would let the hook be a tool to forcibly reposition enemies, whether that's next to your team to shoot or far away to get rid of them. plus it would double down on cliffhogging and that is good
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Jul 12, 2017 20:39
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turtlecrunch posted:Yeah just quoting myself what are you gonna do about it Too fat to cast Quen.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:42
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Kassoon posted:If you want to see the spooky ghost of christmas future just go look at wow pvp or heroes of the storm
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Jul 12, 2017 21:13
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Redundant posted:I want to get this reference but I don't really want to read about either of those games. Could somebody please give me the cliff notes? I dunno about WoW PvP but Heroes of the Storm has absolute garbage damage. Everything takes a million years to die, and every ability feels like it was pre-nerfed because the idea of individual heroes having real impact is just too spooky. Ranges are too short, windups too long, disables have like the half the duration they should, etc.
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Jul 12, 2017 21:21
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Overwatch League teams announced: https://overwatchleague.com/en-us/news/20890515 What's interesting is the two traditional sports owners, the New York Mets and New England Patriots. Apparently viewership for sports is going down amongst younger viewers so they want to get a piece of that pie. Whatever that pie ends up being. Blizzard is hiring real actual broadcasters for traditional sports that will maybe hopefully tell them how unwatchable pro Overwatch is for your average viewer? The sheer amount of development work the spectator client and their streaming setup needs to reach that point seems huge and impossible to reach if they keep up their current pace unless it's been in secret development for the past year. Also the teams won't even be present in their home city for the first year. Honestly I think esports needs to develop down this road so that the players stop getting hosed over by shady orgs and contracts, but... Overwatch? Really?
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Jul 12, 2017 21:35
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blizzard/activision have the money for it so why not I guess I'd have to assume they've been working of the spectator stuff for a while. they rarely talk about what they're working on until they think it's ready for people to see it so it's hard to gauge where they are with anything. I'd be shocked if this took off the way they need it to tho
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Jul 12, 2017 21:42
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Wouldn't surprise me if in the next 10-15 years a game will be made for TV in mind, and built from the ground up to have both pared down and competitive gameplay and a good viewing experience. But it won't be from Blizzard, let me tell ya
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Jul 12, 2017 22:18
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Jeza posted:Wouldn't surprise me if in the next 10-15 years a game will be made for TV in mind, and built from the ground up to have both pared down and competitive gameplay and a good viewing experience. I think it is funny how little progress has been made for FPS esports considering that Mark Rein was pushing UT2k3 as an esport HARD 14 years ago. I mean, CS makes money, and viewership has grown thanks to streaming, but there really hasn't been an FPS designed with viewership in mind in a decade and a half despite companies being very aware of esports and desiring their games to be esports.
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Jul 12, 2017 22:24
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idk that a shooter can be both fun and a a spectator experience at the level of an actual sport. it's much easier to follow the action on a flat plain than it it a map designed to be fun to play for an fps game this is probably why dota and lol are bigger than shooters. they're dull as dirt to me but it's not hard to follow what's happening once you know the rules
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Jul 12, 2017 22:39
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There's also the fact that FPS games are still politically controversial to some extent. It probably won't be as bad for Overwatch as it would be for a more "realistic" shooter like CSGO but I imagine there'll still be scaremongering stories about Overwatch-inspired katana attacks or whatever.
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Jul 12, 2017 23:01
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