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WampaLord posted:If you're lucky, you move to college or a city and interact with enough diverse people that you break free of dumb beliefs like that, but sadly it doesn't happen every time. okay, are there any alternative means by which this can be achieved, or is being converted from right-wing to left-wing a very carefully prescribed ritual of Yuppie Rebirth
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Jul 12, 2017 18:40
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Can I mention, when I was younger and dumber I would actively seek out videos or articles that reinforced my preexisting opinions, that tended to be more conservative. In fact I'd say I still do that, just that they're more left wing, stuff like Jacobin. In either case I don't think I'd say that the stuff I was consuming was really creating my views, just that I had a view before hand and I wanted to make sure it wasn't challenged and that it was normalized by reading or hearing people who shared it.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:40
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My step-dad is a long-haul trucker who was apolitical for 40 years of his life until he got bored and turned the dial to Rush one day and then started having serious doubts about our then-President's heritage and whether or not it was okay for a "Muslim to be in the White House". I think "convincing" is the wrong word. People like Rush take an empty political vessel like my step-dad and "fill" them with a perspective they never bothered to consider before out of laziness, apathy, or both. I think this could be accomplished by a leftist voice too, if there was one, but I recognize the built-in advantage conservatives enjoy, insofar as it's easier to convince someone that their problems are someone else's fault instead of a system they've paid into their entire life.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:42
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:okay, are there any alternative means by which this can be achieved, or is being converted from right-wing to left-wing a very carefully prescribed ritual of Yuppie Rebirth What have you actually done to convert someone on the right-wing fringe, exactly? Go on, show us your superior techniques.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:42
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:okay, are there any alternative means by which this can be achieved, or is being converted from right-wing to left-wing a very carefully prescribed ritual of Yuppie Rebirth It's not a "yuppie" thing, it's an exposure thing. You don't have to gain money, you just need to interact with others and realize that deep down, we're all mostly the same. Develop empathy. It's not an easy process to boil down, but the one thing we have been able to figure out is that diversity helps. Like I'm poor as gently caress, I've never made more than $40k a year and have essentially no net worth. I wasn't Yuppie-ized, I just was exposed to a more diverse social group.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:44
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Who What Now posted:What have you actually done to convert someone on the right-wing fringe, exactly? Go on, show us your superior techniques. i'm asking you the same question
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Jul 12, 2017 18:44
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Stop quoting bad faith arguments, folks. Thanks in advance.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:49
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WampaLord posted:It's not a "yuppie" thing, it's an exposure thing. You don't have to gain money, you just need to interact with others and realize that deep down, we're all mostly the same. Develop empathy. It's not an easy process to boil down, but the one thing we have been able to figure out is that diversity helps. an interesting answer to the whole thing, and brings up a very neat suggestion of a correlation between left-wing ideas/beliefs and diversity of one's surroundings there aren't studies on this yet, are there? y'know, position on political spectrum vs. diversity of someone's immediate social environment (not just level of urbanization, but on a deeper scale) it'd be neat to see how all that works out Pittsburgh Lambic fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 18:52
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:i'm asking you the same question And I already told you, it's not worth doing. You think it is, so tell me what you're doing about it.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:53
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:there aren't studies on this yet, are there? y'know, position on political spectrum vs. diversity of someone's immediate social environment https://www.aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/97003B7B-055F-4318-B14A-5336321FB742/0/DIVREP.PDF https://www.princeton.edu/reports/2013/diversity/report/PU-report-diversity-outcomes.pdf http://reforma.fen.uchile.cl/Papers...on,%20Zhang.pdf
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Jul 12, 2017 18:53
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Sax Solo posted:This whole Twitter thread is good Which one is the bearded guy who stole from black content creators?
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Jul 12, 2017 19:03
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I guess its not surprising that there are Blare White clones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=channel?UCdHfu9qiwROgiapZpd4U-hQ
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Jul 12, 2017 19:04
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Who What Now posted:And I already told you, it's not worth doing. You think it is, so tell me what you're doing about it. i don't often get into political discussions with my friends, but when i do, it's usually about questioning their beliefs/how they came to such beliefs and it turns out they took something way out of context because they weren't fully paying attention so, whoops on their part in general though i try to be friendly and not get into political fights with people i'm friends with because, y'know, that's a lovely thing to do WampaLord posted:https://www.aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/97003B7B-055F-4318-B14A-5336321FB742/0/DIVREP.PDF thanks for these -- though having read over them a bit, what i'm seeing is that they're about a positive correlation between diversity and educational success, not so much about diversity and what kind of poo poo someone might vote for
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Jul 12, 2017 19:12
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:thanks for these -- though having read over them a bit, what i'm seeing is that they're about a positive correlation between diversity and educational success, not so much about diversity and what kind of poo poo someone might vote for Do I really have to explain that education is a good thing that will lead to less people being swayed by poo poo arguments?
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Jul 12, 2017 19:14
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WampaLord posted:Do I really have to explain that education is a good thing that will lead to less people being swayed by poo poo arguments? i asked for data showing that there's a positive correlation between diversity and left-wing ideas/beliefs, and you brought up studies showing that people in diverse colleges are more likely to graduate/succeed academically that's not about politics, that's about retention
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Jul 12, 2017 19:20
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Okay someone link a study about the link of left leaning and education so he can shut up Also Sargon is based in anti intulectualism and anti academia so of someone is educated they probably aren't big ups on Sargon
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Jul 12, 2017 19:25
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:They don't need to be knocked down a peg. It's not that society tells them they deserve these things, but that they need them. Sex and money is success in America. These dateless jobless losers gravitate towards awful things like Sargon because it asserts them as not the bottom rung. The economy and job market is poo poo. It's not anyone's fault they don't have a "good" job these days. That feeling of unfairness gets transferred to other things they lack in really gross ways. See, the problem is not everyone is guaranteed success. It's never been that way-- the whole American Dream bullshit only applied if you were a pasty WASP who went to whatever boring tax-dodger church was en vogue at the moment. Now they are being put at the same level as everyone else and crying how loving unfair it is. Considering we're talking about guy who are literally unfuckable in a society that's been about as open with sex as we've had in the US, you'd have to think they'd be unfuckable losers in whatever version of society you'd come up with that still gives other people sexual agency. it's not simply some money thing, because poor people still have sex. It's that if you're an unemployable loser with no real interests outside murder sim video games and hentai while harboring this idea that you must have sex with a woman who's both hot and virginal, you are going to be disappointed. And rightly so. Nobody deserves sex, and if you can't get a person to consentually have it with you (assuming here you actually want it and are physically capable), that reflects on your value as a human being. We're social creatures, and a straight man so toxic that they can't get laid at all is a very special kind of broken. We're not talking about frustrated 16 year olds here either-- the incel/MRA types trend way older and speak to the kind of obvious brokenness that women avoid out of self-preservation.
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Jul 12, 2017 19:25
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:Okay someone link a study about the link of left leaning and education so he can shut up the breakdown occurs here: the studies linked basically say that a person going to a diverse college is more likely to graduate than a person going to a non-diverse college and there's plenty of data that shows correlation between education level and left-wing views so you can say that "being surrounded by diverse people => less likely to fail math or something => more likely to get a degree => more likely to be left-wing" but hopping from one correlation to another like that makes things a little bit tenuous, particularly when the correlation-causation chain for education level vs. political views is already shaky, see:  showing proportions of people with conservative values staying basically the same across education levels, while the people with mixed views dwindle away as if going to college doesn't make right-wing views go away, just moderate ones which kinda undermines the "only diversity can cure conservative thinking" argument Pittsburgh Lambic fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 19:40
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fallenturtle posted:New Laci Green video on gender: That's weird, because she's gone full on TERF on her Twitter. 
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Jul 12, 2017 19:54
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Not So Fast posted:That's weird, because she's gone full on TERF on her Twitter. IMO, she hasn't gone TERF so much as she's decided that the terms female and male should exclusively refer to sex and not gender whereas most people use them both when defining gender and when defining sex.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:01
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You forgot to include the tweet where the person explains Laci called herself an idiot
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Jul 12, 2017 20:02
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fallenturtle posted:IMO, she hasn't gone TERF so much as she's decided that the terms female and male should exclusively refer to sex and not gender whereas most people use them both when defining gender and when defining sex. Even then, she is wrong. People can be born intersex, or XXY or XYY, etc.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:04
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:i don't often get into political discussions with my friends, but when i do, it's usually about questioning their beliefs/how they came to such beliefs and it turns out they took something way out of context because they weren't fully paying attention so, whoops on their part So why should we do it for you? Edit: Also, why are you friends with these shitpiles? That says a lot about you.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:13
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Who What Now posted:Also, why are you friends with these shitpiles? That says a lot about you. because they're normal people whose beliefs/ideas don't all suck, just some of them and are willing to talk about said beliefs? hating the idea but not the person is kind of a basic thing Pittsburgh Lambic fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 20:16
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:because they're normal people whose beliefs/ideas don't all suck, just some of them and are willing to talk about said beliefs? Normal people don't go to playgrounds and screech at children. I'm shocked I have to explain this to you.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:20
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Who What Now posted:Normal people don't go to playgrounds and screech at children. I'm shocked I have to explain this to you. my friends don't do that either and if they did that would be seriously hosed up and bad
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Jul 12, 2017 20:21
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WampaLord posted:Even then, she is wrong. People can be born intersex, or XXY or XYY, etc. There is intersex and I'm sure she is aware so I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt... I guess its semantics if you consider intersex a unique sex or just a mixture of the two primary ones. Since my initial post its come to my attention that in her video she mischaracterized something Zinnia Jones said, which is pretty lame.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:30
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Who What Now posted:So why should we do it for you? Its really weird to not have friends with whom you disagree politically. People dont talk politics that much irl.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:34
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:
The argument isn't that diversity creates liberal thinkers, the argument is that diversity innoculates people to the garbage that people like rush spew, and that in itself is a correlation between diversity and left leaning views. You apparently skipped over that part where left leaning views massively increased with education, and it coming from the mixed views just means people who were stupid as poo poo now have the critical thinking tools to not be swayed by Carlgon. Jesus loving christ this isn't that hard.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:42
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Panzeh posted:Its really weird to not have friends with whom you disagree politically. It's really weird to befriend people who talk about kekeistan, who are the subject of this thread. Lambic bringing up that he's buddies with Gary who is "Fiscally Conservative" is just a non-sequitor
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Jul 12, 2017 20:52
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:The argument isn't that diversity creates liberal thinkers, the argument is that diversity innoculates people to the garbage that people like rush spew, and that in itself is a correlation between diversity and left leaning views. You apparently skipped over that part where left leaning views massively increased with education, and it coming from the mixed views just means people who were stupid as poo poo now have the critical thinking tools to not be swayed by Carlgon. Jesus loving christ this isn't that hard. that was not, in fact, the argument WampaLord posted:Yes. That's the entire point of right wing media, to reinforce beliefs, not create them. The beliefs get created early, when their parents tell them that the government is a waste and that the foreigners are taking all our jobs. i've been trying to discuss how to make right-wing people go away, and the answer was "diversity will fix that" admittedly, i shouldn't have framed it as "is there a correlation between a diverse social environment and left-wing beliefs" but rather as "is there a correlation between a diverse social environment and a decrease in right-wing beliefs," whoops
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Jul 12, 2017 20:53
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:admittedly, i shouldn't have framed it as "is there a correlation between a diverse social environment and left-wing beliefs" but rather as "is there a correlation between a diverse social environment and a decrease in right-wing beliefs," whoops It is the same thing either way you slice it. It takes generations, though, it's not overnight. The amount of tolerance the younger generation has for gay rights is insanely good, for example. Because over the course of the last 20 years, gay rights has made huge bounds.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:57
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Who What Now posted:It's really weird to befriend people who talk about kekeistan, who are the subject of this thread. Lambic bringing up that he's buddies with Gary who is "Fiscally Conservative" is just a non-sequitor well since we're on that topic, let's get into hypotheticals for instance, let's say that gary discovers sargon, the conversation would hypothetically go like this Gary: "So I've been listening to this guy called Sargon and--" me: sargon? Gary: "Yeah Sargon of Akkad on Youtube, he's a liberal who argues that feminism is--" me: ohhhhhh, that sargon, yeah he's okay i guess but-- Gary: "And did you know that anita sarkeesian harassed him i mean come on what a bi--" me: yeah sargon is cool, just remember he's not right about everything, for instance his argument about the one-in-five rape statistic, and his prediction that marine le pen would win france, and his prediction about the uk general election, oh yeah and he kind of acts like an rear end on twitter Gary: "What? His twitter? Well let's see -- oh... poo poo." see it helps if you stay level-headed and gently discourage people from getting too into things/getting obsessed with people and the idea that those people are always right
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Jul 12, 2017 20:59
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:see it helps if you stay level-headed and gently discourage people from getting too into things/getting obsessed with people and the idea that those people are always right "Nice ad hominem, why can't you counter his ACTUAL arguments?!!?!?!?" Has your amazing approach ever worked? Even just once? I'm finding it hard to believe that someone who found his youtube videos didn't also end up looking at his twitter for one reason or another before sharing his views with other people, and if looking at his twitter is enough to shake people out of falling for his garbage then he's already preaching to their beliefs. also Pittsburgh Lambic posted:that was not, in fact, the argument you're still the one deliberately misreading the evidence because you have a view you want to fit the evidence to, and it's your evidence, not theirs. Just because they suck at making an argument doesn't mean you get to misread your own evidence to get a sick burn in on them or some garbage. LITERALLY MY FETISH fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 21:09
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:"Nice ad hominem, why can't you counter his ACTUAL arguments?!!?!?!?" that kind of combativeness calls for an incredulous "...what?" as a reminder to drop back to earth a little, we all respect each other here, calm down a bit and don't get in a fight about internet videos
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Jul 12, 2017 21:15
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:well since we're on that topic, let's get into hypotheticals So you think Sargon is cool? And why would you spend a bunch of time talking up how great he is? Why not just lead off with pointing him to his Twitter. For that matter, what specifically in his Twitter is so much worse than his videos that it would turn your friend off instead of just further reinforcing his viewpoints? See, that's the thing with hypotheticals, they aren't real and in this case aren't based in reality.
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Jul 12, 2017 21:16
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rkajdi posted:And rightly so. Nobody deserves sex, and if you can't get a person to consentually have it with you (assuming here you actually want it and are physically capable), that reflects on your value as a human being. We're social creatures, and a straight man so toxic that they can't get laid at all is a very special kind of broken. We're not talking about frustrated 16 year olds here either-- the incel/MRA types trend way older and speak to the kind of obvious brokenness that women avoid out of self-preservation. So you'd describe yourself as a 'high value' person or what? Funny how you seem to dislike MRA's, but actually sound just like some guru explaining the ladder theory.
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Jul 12, 2017 21:16
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Who What Now posted:So you think Sargon is cool? And why would you spend a bunch of time talking up how great he is? Why not just lead off with pointing him to his Twitter. For that matter, what specifically in his Twitter is so much worse than his videos that it would turn your friend off instead of just further reinforcing his viewpoints? because i approach these things as having a chill and friendly conversation, not as "look at his twitter, idiot  "and his twitter usually has at least one immediately-visible slapfight with another twitter user
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Jul 12, 2017 21:18
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:
So there's always one example that your friend will see as Sargon owning SJW cucks. Again, how is this going to turn them off from Sargon?
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Jul 12, 2017 21:20
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Who What Now posted:So there's always one example that your friend will see as Sargon owning SJW cucks. Again, how is this going to turn them off from Sargon? no, a childish twitter slapfight is a childish twitter slapfight unless that person has already taken a firm side at which points other measures need to be taken, such as "dude. DUDE no that's a pretty childish and hosed up way for that guy to act, don't you think?"
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Jul 12, 2017 21:25
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