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Mozi posted:I'd consider it more likely that a hacker could simply turn everything off or brick it somehow. That alone would be pretty annoying. One problem is when the people that buy the device and the person that suffer the device flaws are different people. So you buy a IP camera to watch your baby from your workplace. Nice. But you buy the cheaper one,and it uses a default password. Ugh. It gets hacked, and used has part of a DDoS by some mafia to force companies to pay money, or have their website closed. Ungood for these companies, good for that mafia, you may only notice the video stream of your baby is not has good as used to be at first, but nothing else. Is other people that pay the price of having a "unhealty" device connected to the internet.
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Jul 12, 2017 16:05
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Lightning Lord posted:Some random guy could just decide to turn on a bunch of stoves for shits and giggles, it doesn't have to be some kind of conspiracy to murder you. I'm not sure we're going to have a ton of blazing infernos because Zero Cool turned on everyone's oven while they were in the Seychelles but it's not about "Gonna kill Owlofcreamcheese specifically with his toaster" but "Gonna turn a bunch of things on at once to cause maximum chaos" Crazy psychos can burn your house down right now already. If they want. They can just throw gas and fire on it and not even need PHDs in computer hacking to find unpatched vulnerabilities in your stove that also has some weird physical issue where your stove being on eventually causes it to burst into flames somehow. Like literally nothing works if psychos turn their mind to ruining it. Cars can't work because psychos could dig up the roads every night. Electricity can't light houses because psychos could cut the wires. water pipes couldn't work because psychos could go in the sewer and cut them open and poop in them. Gas ovens can't work because psychos could put bombs on the gas lines.
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Jul 12, 2017 16:13
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Next time you're at the hospital, remember that some idiot programmer did a poo poo job building the cloud infrastructure for your ECG monitor and now you're going to die. https://forums.aws.amazon.com/thread.jspa?threadID=65649 
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Jul 12, 2017 16:13
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Crazy psychos can burn your house down right now already. If they want. They can just throw gas and fire on it and not even need PHDs in computer hacking to find unpatched vulnerabilities in your stove that also has some weird physical issue where your stove being on eventually causes it to burst into flames somehow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botnet Look at the "Estimated number of bots". Maybe a psycho can burn 10 houses. But can burn 30.000 with a simple click?, at the same time? from other country? The scale from 10 to 30.000 is several orders of magnitude bigger. The speed, the chaos of emergency services trying to stop fires in different parts of the city at the same time. This is a serius problem, and we must make sure IoT are well done, or are not sell in countries where we live.
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Jul 12, 2017 16:24
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Sure, someone in Russia can remotely breach a database and steal millions of social security numbers, but have you considered that they can also James Bond their way into Aetna headquarters and helicopter out all their paper files? It's exactly the same thing.
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Jul 12, 2017 16:36
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Crazy psychos can burn your house down right now already. If they want. They can just throw gas and fire on it
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Jul 12, 2017 17:12
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Crazy psychos can burn your house down right now already. If they want. They can just throw gas and fire on it Do you want to tell us about how civilians having rifles with 100-round magazines is irrelevant too because they could just kill people with knives instead?
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Jul 12, 2017 17:34
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Crazy psychos can burn your house down right now already. If they want. They can just throw gas and fire on it and not even need PHDs in computer hacking to find unpatched vulnerabilities in your stove that also has some weird physical issue where your stove being on eventually causes it to burst into flames somehow. I bet you think guns are no more dangerous than knives because someone who would shoot you would always successfully stab you, right edit: haha it was too obvious
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Jul 12, 2017 18:31
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call to action posted:I bet you think guns are no more dangerous than knives because someone who would shoot you would always successfully stab you, right If guns were like 10,000x more complicated than knives to use then sure.
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Jul 12, 2017 19:20
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:If guns were like 10,000x more complicated than knives to use then sure. That doesn't make any sense, any psycho could just stab you, why would it make a difference how difficult a gun is to use
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Jul 12, 2017 19:27
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Please thread, I love OOCC too, but it might be best we let him wander off to another thread for now.
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Jul 12, 2017 19:37
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Solkanar512 posted:Stop being so loving obtuse! Do you not understand that many appliances in the kitchen, even when operating normally, can present a danger if operated without someone there to supervise? Have you ever used a kitchen before? Do you understand that ovens are hot, and gas ranges produce an open flame? Modern kitchen appliances are designed to not burst into flames when unsupervised, even toasters. Solkanar512 posted:Seriously, do you not understand this? If I can remotely turn off a gas range, it means it's possible to remotely turn on a gas range. This is not true, the mechanics required to turn on a flame are entirely different to turn off a flame, I can see them adding the ability to turn off a flame but not turn one on. To do both would require extra effort and honestly just open them up for more liability so I doubt they'd do it unless they had a compelling reason and/or it was engineered to fail "closed". Solkanar512 posted:You even showed the scripts allowing for an oven to start preheating. Why do you keep ignoring this poo poo when people keep bringing it up in a clear and direct fashion? An oven preheating has been deemed safe because these devices are designed to operate for hours/days at full power without bursting into flames. Why are you assuming they're just dummies hooking a computer up to a device but also smart enough to build in the features that allow these devices to surpass their mechanical/engineered specifications? Lightning Lord posted:People have already disabled and hosed around with cars through hacking. Luckily, they were white hat hackers trying to demonstrate security flaws to the automotive industry and technology journalists. I used to work for a company that provided the means to update firmware in cars, I can assure you that all the hacks that have been promoted in the media require physical access to the hardware to perform any action that is deemed unsafe. Some guy earlier made the claim that the connected entertainment consoles in cars are hooked up to the car computer and that's just blatantly and incredibly false... it's a shame you guys don't bother to research how these things actually work. There are standards that car manufacturers have to follow and I assure you they don't let randos just hook a PC up to the gas pedal in your Nissan. You might think you have direct internet access but all the connected services transmit over a private APN with proxy software to route api calls... Lightning Lord posted:I'm not saying rip all the computers out of cars, I'm saying treat car computers like any other computer and get some security. Manufacturers already are starting to do this but the concern is that it might escalate before they have a full handle on it. We know the issues, and people are taking it seriously. That's why the computer that controls your car is a custom built device that has hard-coded logic built in. Meanwhile your entertainment console is a totally different computer that has little to do with your cars normal functions. call to action posted:Unexpectedly turning on 100,000 toasters at once in an area would probably cause a power disruption, too, especially if it were done in the middle of a hot day That is if you jump through a lot of hoops to do it, your toaster isn't running a web server/admin interface that can be exploited like the security cameras and routers that were exploited by Mirai. But I can't convince you guys because you all know exactly how this future toaster will be built and why it's no different than a home router. Tei posted:My mother use to have stuff inside when the oven is off. Why are you assuming you can add 30% over maximum? It just doesn't make sense that you would be able to surpass the hardware limitations of these devices. Tei posted:One problem is when the people that buy the device and the person that suffer the device flaws are different people. So you buy a IP camera to watch your baby from your workplace. Nice. But you buy the cheaper one,and it uses a default password. Ugh. It gets hacked, and used has part of a DDoS by some mafia to force companies to pay money, or have their website closed. Ungood for these companies, good for that mafia, you may only notice the video stream of your baby is not has good as used to be at first, but nothing else. Is other people that pay the price of having a "unhealty" device connected to the internet. IP cameras have been around a long time, you know what's been around even longer and has a much bigger attack surface? PCs. Your PC is a better candidate for a botnet than any IP camera, if your point is that any connected device can be used nefariously I'd argue that a) you're wrong but b) even if you're right how is that different than running a PC or running a web server or running any fully featured operating system with unrestricted network connectivity. call to action posted:That doesn't make any sense, any psycho could just stab you, why would it make a difference how difficult a gun is to use What are you arguing? If a psycho has to kill people and one way is really easy and the other requires probably years or decades of skills and potentially resources... how many psychos are going to build a robot to kill you over just stabbing you?
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Jul 12, 2017 20:22
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I feel as if this thread itself could be automated to a large extent.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:29
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GE currently makes 17 internet controllable ovens: http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-category/wall-ovens?ascdesc=d&p=1&r=12&sortBy=price&Features=WiFi+Connect+Built-In If they sell 1 million of these how many deaths should we expect per year? how many house fires? Realistically? How worried are people of this actually being a thing and how much is it people saying "well it COULD happen!"
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Jul 12, 2017 21:17
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I look at what's already happened with IoT devices and how well security is being handled by such things as, say, nuclear installations, and I choose to not invite the internet into my oven or fridge. I mean, leave aside the hacking angle - drat things will crash! I don't see the necessity of this added complexity.
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Jul 12, 2017 21:21
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Mozi posted:I look at what's already happened with IoT devices and how well security is being handled by such things as, say, nuclear installations, and I choose to not invite the internet into my oven or fridge. Just so you're clear, instead of calling everything an IoT device just call it a "networked computer" and suddenly it's no different than your laptop, phone or ipad... which all have a much larger attack surface and have the same security concerns that we've always had.
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Jul 12, 2017 21:23
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Mozi posted:I look at what's already happened with IoT devices and how well security is being handled by such things as, say, nuclear installations, and I choose to not invite the internet into my oven or fridge. your appliances already have computers and software in them if they are newer than like 30 years old. The hackers could have hacked into the oven factory already and altered the microcontrollers to work as time bombs if you are doing anything but cooking over campfires.
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Jul 12, 2017 21:25
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:your appliances already have computers and software in them if they are newer than like 30 years old. The hackers could have hacked into the oven factory already and altered the microcontrollers to work as time bombs if you are doing anything but cooking over campfires. Woah there, are you calling these computer experts luddites or something?
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Jul 12, 2017 21:26
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ElCondemn posted:Just so you're clear, instead of calling everything an IoT device just call it a "networked computer" and suddenly it's no different than your laptop, phone or ipad... which all have a much larger attack surface and have the same security concerns that we've always had. I don't want my fridge to be a networked computer. There are vastly different expectations. Whatever - you guys go ahead and be the adopters. Enjoy the myriad benefits of turning on your oven with an app while you're driving home or having your fridge automatically order more eggs for you. Maybe years ago I would have been excited about that - but now I just see more headaches.
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Jul 12, 2017 21:31
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Guys stop responding to OOCC. He always starts stupid arguments and never posts in good faith, as you can easily see by him ignoring every counterpoint and repeating himself with his fingers in his ears.
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Jul 12, 2017 21:32
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Mozi posted:I don't want my fridge to be a networked computer. There are vastly different expectations. You are free to do that, but devices that you use every day already have the same if not bigger security concerns than a fridge that counts your eggs. I will continue to adopt these technologies because I understand how they work and I while there are some aspects I wish I could control better in general I trust the companies providing these services and products. I use these devices every day and they improve my life tremendously, especially since having a kid. I am able to keep my new born son's bedroom at the exact temp and humidity it should be. My home automation system controls fans, cooling and heating and also alerts me if something out of the ordinary happens like unexpected movement at night or flooding. Not only do I have all this automated control I can keep tabs and control everything in my home even when I'm away. It'll even tell me if there's a fire or something at my home and I can take appropriate action with that information. People have been using security cameras and burglar alarms for ages, I just have a custom built one that does way more than just give me peace of mind, it's actually useful and all of this happens via the local network with no direct public access to any of these devices. ElCondemn fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 21:49
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Mozi posted:Whatever - you guys go ahead and be the adopters. Enjoy the myriad benefits of turning on your oven with an app while you're driving home or having your fridge automatically order more eggs for you. Maybe years ago I would have been excited about that - but now I just see more headaches.
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Jul 12, 2017 22:01
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pangstrom posted:Nothing wrong with that, but what is a fun pastime for them mostly just gives me visions of having to go on stack overflow when my lights won't turn on. You may be imagining them as much harder to use than they really are. The hue lights I have just auto detect all the hardware and you just download an app on your phone or whatever. You can do more stuff like set up ifttt scripts but no one will force you to do that and if you want to that is also a very very very simple system anyone could figure out. You don't really sit around for hours doing technology to your lights or anything.
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Jul 12, 2017 22:21
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I'm sure that's true and I do think this stuff will be more the default eventually, but in addition to the fact that the convenience upside currently doesn't loom as large as the potential convenience downside, for me, it just doesn't seem worth the financial cost. Again, all "for me".
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Jul 12, 2017 22:39
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Total aside, but a while ago I interviewed for a job at Wink (makes IoT hub, basically)--which I would have been perfect for btw, they really whiffed there is what I tell myself but really I didn't prepare enough. Anyway talking about segmenting potential customers I borderline outed myself as having a hard time seeing non-turbonerds wanting the thing.
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Jul 12, 2017 22:45
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pangstrom posted:I'm sure that's true and I do think this stuff will be more the default eventually, but in addition to the fact that the convenience upside currently doesn't loom as large as the potential convenience downside, for me, it just doesn't seem worth the financial cost. Again, all "for me". Definitely don't buy things you don't want or need, but if you are concerned things like lights might be hard to use or "having to go on stack overflow when my lights won't turn on." stuff like hue has been out for a while now and the software all seems really mature and targeted at normal people, I wouldn't expect that you'd hit a lot of issues or need to spend time on technical forums to get them to work.
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Jul 13, 2017 00:51
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Eletriarnation posted:Do you want to tell us about how civilians having rifles with 100-round magazines is irrelevant too because they could just kill people with knives instead? 100 round magazines are garbage and very jam prone. You'd be better off with a standard sized 30 round magazine.
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Jul 13, 2017 03:22
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'World’s first robot lawyer’ now available in all 50 states http://www.donotpay.co.uk/ This...is very cool
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Jul 13, 2017 03:31
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All this talk of IoT overuse, and no one has mentioned the Juicero? For shame: https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/20/15375940/juicero-full-refund-customers-ceo-jeff-dunn Cicero posted:This seems to be a common pattern, where something that's a nice but unnecessary luxury for the rich is a huge life-saver for people with some handicap. E.g. for the average adult, buying a self-driving car will mostly be for convenience: now I can do something other than driving! Cool! But for a blind or very elderly adult, it means you go from not being able to drive to being able to drive, a huge lifestyle and productivity change for people in most of America. Not to mention that when this sort of technology is developed specifically for people with disabilities (people have been playing around with voice-controlled devices for that purpose since at least the '90s), the relatively low production volumes mean that prices tend to be crazy high. When your options for middle-class employment are rather limited, having that stuff mass-produced for the masses can be your only chance to actually afford it. SimonCat posted:100 round magazines are garbage and very jam prone. You'd be better off with a standard sized 30 round magazine. And in mass shootings, people have gotten around capacity limits by bringing extra guns. Back to the original topic: You know how a big part of Trump's campaign was traveling around flyover states, promising to restore all the coal-related jobs that went away thanks to those drat dirty Democrats telling us we have to stop burning it? It turns out coal jobs have been on a steady decline for quite a while, over a period spannign multiple Republican presidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw6RsUhw1Q8 It turns out that advancements in mining technology have been at least as big a factor there as people realizing that mindlessly loving up the environment is not in society's best interests.
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Jul 13, 2017 23:40
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Butlerian Jihad when?
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Jul 14, 2017 05:03
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Cicero posted:This seems to be a common pattern, where something that's a nice but unnecessary luxury for the rich is a huge life-saver for people with some handicap. E.g. for the average adult, buying a self-driving car will mostly be for convenience: now I can do something other than driving! Cool! But for a blind or very elderly adult, it means you go from not being able to drive to being able to drive, a huge lifestyle and productivity change for people in most of America. A former teacher of mine has Huntington's and Uber/Lyft has meant a world of difference for his mobility, especially since he lives in a lovely town with no public transportation.
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Jul 14, 2017 05:11
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LinYutang posted:A former teacher of mine has Huntington's and Uber/Lyft has meant a world of difference for his mobility, especially since he lives in a lovely town with no public transportation.
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Jul 14, 2017 11:02
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Cicero posted:I've also heard that Uber/Lyft is better for some minorities (especially black people) because traditional cabbies could be incredibly racist. (That doesn't excuse Uber's lovely internal corporate culture of course) Also better for non English speakers since all needed interaction is in an app in your own language.
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Jul 14, 2017 18:29
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Do you have stairs in your house?
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Jul 18, 2017 23:59
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I love how all the stories about this have a "hah! not so smart now, eh robots?" tone to them. It's great.
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Jul 19, 2017 03:18
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As a professional defender against the bad computer touchers, malware affecting IoT isnt a big deal to the consumer. Its a problem in hospitals, transport, the military, and other groups that have lots of mission critical equipment made by small time vendors. What are big deals to the average person is obsolescence and privacy. Obsolescence: Increasing complexity where the added complexity's debt outweighs its benefit is a bad idea. Who cares if my fridge can text me the exact temperature its running at? However depending on the manufacturer that component running into a software problem means my fridge is trashed. Also, companies (including big ones like Google) have been known to intentionally brick all their IoT devices through updates if they no longer want to support them. http://uk.businessinsider.com/googles-nest-closing-smart-home-company-revolv-bricking-devices-2016-4?op=1 Privacy: Varies country to country, China being the worst offender, but I'd rather not have every conversation I have monitored by the manufacturer and sold to whoever wants to purchase it. If I make a joke about buying cigarettes I don't want my health insurance to go up or have my Good Citizen ™ score go down because I expressed wrong think too close to the microphone. http://www.computerworld.com/articl...-americans.html
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Jul 19, 2017 04:36
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Paradoxish posted:I love how all the stories about this have a "hah! not so smart now, eh robots?" tone to them. It's great. Just wait until Boston Dynamics makes a police robot.
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Jul 19, 2017 05:22
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CrazySalamander posted:Just wait until Boston Dynamics makes a police robot. The funny part is that while Robocop was meant to be a satire of police violence and brutality, as presented in either movie Robocop is genuinely good at his job and probably better than most flesh and blood police officers we have so far. Of course, the real point of that movie was that Robocop was a hastily made alternative to a trigger-happy, buggy death machine that can't recognise when a person is unarmed.
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Jul 19, 2017 06:31
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Wells Fargo to shut down 450 branches quote:Wells Fargo ( has long been known among analysts and commentators as one of the nation's most efficient banks. As a result, when its efficiency started to slip recently, the bank responded by announcing an initiative to cut annual expenses by $2 billion by the end of 2019. Only tangentially related to robots I guess, but I think it's meaningful to the topic of replacing in-person services with online services.
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Jul 19, 2017 17:43
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Yeah they've bought several other banks in the last decade (eg. Wachovia is the first that comes to mind) that's probably been coming for a while.
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Jul 19, 2017 17:46
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