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Ligur posted:You have your Suvi-Anne Siimes and Ulla-Maija Rajakangas and thus forth. Google them up. Like I said, they were not sitting in töh yrityksen hallitus while being MPs but moved into certain positions quite fluidly (to work for companies the business models of which their political career were supposed to oppose). I meant an example of a politician who got a seat on the board of a company or a fund that they specifically helped privatize or something. Not just the general links between politicians and companies.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:43
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If there is no corruption involved, privatizing decisions have just been really loving stupid even if the estimates of the losses in the link are one tenth of what is written and should have inoculated anyone with two brain cells to rub together against further attempts of selling our national assets + tax income to foreign companies. Looking at sote (anyone still claiming it is going to lower costs/bureaucracy?) and other things, this does not seem to be the case...so either the decision makers directly or indirectly benefit from these seemingly non-sensical decisions or they are unable to make very simple profit calculations. Thus far from the actions of this government either could be the case so I am not going to speculate, but those are really the two only options left. Because these sales have been really loving idiotic as far as benefits to Finland are concerned: http://masik.puheenvuoro.uusisuomi.fi/203944-suomen-pahimmat-bisnesmokat http://blogit.apu.fi/uuninpankkopoikasakutimonen/2017/05/13/kenen-rahoja/ EDIT: pretty good summarization of who benefited in Caruna case specifically. http://masik.puheenvuoro.uusisuomi.fi/211156-nakokulma-caruna-munaus-nain-se-tapahtui DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 20:43
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DarkCrawler posted:If there is no corruption involved, privatizing decisions have just been really loving stupid even if the estimates of the losses in the link are one tenth of what is written and should have inoculated anyone with two brain cells to rub together against further attempts of selling our national assets + tax income to foreign companies. Firstly, who cares who owns a company? This dumb ARE NATIONAL ASSTS thing is dumb, I want the best possible service for a good price and I don't care where the profits go. Secondly, looking at just the companies that performed well after privatization is so retardedly misleading. Sometimes companies get misvalued. But it goes both ways and sometimes investors lose. Look at the list below, how many of those companies do you still recognize? You could also look at Finnair, which has improved prices and operated pretty much at a loss since its IPO. Or Sonera, where the government first sold its shares in 1998 at the height of the tech bubble. Even this Caruna case seems ridiculous, because they paid a huge price for the company, aren't anywhere close to getting their money back and were able to raise prices because they made investments that Fortum was unwilling to make. http://vnk.fi/en/privatisation It's a bit telling that so far all of the criticisms of privatization have focused on case studies instead of doing a systematic analysis, even though quite a bit of data is available.
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Jul 12, 2017 21:18
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I expected GP to run here at some point to express his unconditional love for captains of industry. They just can do nothing wrong, now can't they?
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Jul 12, 2017 21:57
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Kuka on John Galt Voisitko ystävällisesti
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Jul 13, 2017 01:37
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Rexroom posted:I expected GP to run here at some point to express his unconditional love for captains of industry. They just can do nothing wrong, now can't they? It's a documented 100% that the government is worse at running businesses than the private sector. What still boggles the mind is how you people can be so (delusionally) convinced that the government is incompetent and corrupt but still want it to own businesses such as a fertilizer factory and a cleaning company. It's sort of weird, a few weeks after the report of Sipila as a businessman ripping off government businesses left and right the reaction seems to be "MORE OF THIS!" Btw DarkCrawler, judt noticed one of your links says that the "value" of fertilizer in that one area is 16bn and it was "only" sold for 700m. I have good news for you! The value of Yara, so the Finnish asset (supposedly worth 16bn) and all other assets, is only 9bn. That's a huge almost 100% profit opportunity! Or then maybe people need to stop being idiots and assuming that value is the markrt value of outputs without considering inputs or time..
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Jul 13, 2017 07:38
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Buddy, all you care about is letting the rich plunder the country so that you won't have to admit that your obviously failed economic ideology is bullcrap. And also making obviously false absolute statements like the following:Geriatric Pirate posted:It's a documented 100% that the government is worse at running businesses than the private sector. I mean, if you just took the usual tack and argued in generalities it would be a bit less dumb, but hell if you can even force yourself to drop the dogmatism for one second lol
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Jul 13, 2017 08:01
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Geriatric Pirate posted:It's a documented 100% that the government is worse at running businesses than the private sector. Sure, they're probably good at running business, like we've seen with Caruna. Ripping off their customers and aggressively hiding the profits from taxes is exemplary showing of business acumen. If the government was running the operation, they'd be slowed down by laughable concepts like ethics and morals, and they'd be accountable to the general public and not to their shareholders - which would definitely be bad for business. Which brings us to why we'd want the government to own businesses like natural monopolies: If it comes down to it, we can vote them out. We have less sway on privatized companies. Our best (civilized) option would be to buy a majority share of the company, but that's not exactly realistic, now would it? All-in-all, the government might be inept and corrupt pieces of poo poo, but they're our inept and corrupt pieces of poo poo.
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Jul 13, 2017 08:16
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Geriatric Pirate's mistake is assuming that services are automatically businesses.
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Jul 13, 2017 08:19
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Rexroom posted:Sure, they're probably good at running business, like we've seen with Caruna. Ripping off their customers and aggressively hiding the profits from taxes is exemplary showing of business acumen. If the government was running the operation, they'd be slowed down by laughable concepts like ethics and morals, and they'd be accountable to the general public and not to their shareholders - which would definitely be bad for business. Actually we have other options for natural monopolies, such as regulation. A good example of regulation is the cap on profits for companies like Caruna. Which btw was increased at the request of Finngrid, a government owned company. Also lol at government owned companies being accountable. How did that work out for Länsimetro? Are people just as outraged about Vantaan Energia and Helen raising transfer prices in 2016? To me it seems like privatization seems to actually increase accountability because of how knee-jerk anti-business some people are.
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Jul 13, 2017 08:26
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Firstly, who cares who owns a company? This dumb ARE NATIONAL ASSTS thing is dumb, I want the best possible service for a good price and I don't care where the profits go. lol, even the Ferengi aren't this comically fygm-capitalist
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Jul 13, 2017 08:32
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I want good service for free (or rather paid for with taxes) for everyone because I'm not a piece of poo poo like Geriatric Pirate. The profit goes to literally every citizen in the form of being able to live in a welfare state.
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Jul 13, 2017 08:33
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Actually we have other options for natural monopolies, such as regulation. A good example of regulation is the cap on profits for companies like Caruna. Which btw was increased at the request of Finngrid, a government owned company. Länsimetro is an organizational himmeli-nightmare where no-one is accountable to the other. That said, we know exactly who is responsible for agreeing to that idiotic model.
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Jul 13, 2017 08:56
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Geriatric Pirate posted:It's a documented 100% that the government is worse at running businesses than the private sector. babby's first opinion on economics
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Jul 13, 2017 09:04
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Rexroom posted:Länsimetro is an organizational himmeli-nightmare where no-one is accountable to the other. That said, we know exactly who is responsible for agreeing to that idiotic model. Also, the shitfest has a lot to do with setting it up as a separate company for reasons. People continually say "EU regulations say that we have to allow competition from the private sector", but as Stalin said: how many divisions does the Pope have?
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Jul 13, 2017 09:21
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I think we should privatize schools, prisons, the police, the fire department, the military, libraries, hospitals, roads, railways, docks, shipping routes, elderly homes, public housing, and basically everything. I think we should elect the following people into power: Marco de Wit Markorepairs UncleSamPatriot Marcoboy the banjo playing hermit whatever his name is Huhtasaari Gimli from Marcos posse I think we should adopt the healthcare model from the United States.
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Jul 13, 2017 09:28
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Cerebral Bore posted:Buddy, all you care about is letting the rich plunder the country so that you won't have to admit that your obviously failed economic ideology is bullcrap. And also making obviously false absolute statements like the following: As far as I understand, you think socialism and/or communism are GREAT ECONOMIC IDEOLOGIES, IS GREAT SUCCESS so in the case of failed (or any) economic ideologies shut the gently caress up. Or correct me if I'm wrong.
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Jul 13, 2017 09:40
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Gortarius posted:I think we should privatize schools, prisons, the police, the fire department, the military, libraries, hospitals, roads, railways, docks, shipping routes, elderly homes, public housing, and basically everything. Pasi Viheraho for minister of health and safety, Dj Pate for minister of spitting indoors. Geriatric Pirate for special briefcaseless minister in charge of nationalisation of all business.
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Jul 13, 2017 09:42
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Niilo22 as minister of education
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Jul 13, 2017 10:17
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Is that the energy drink tester guy?
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Jul 13, 2017 10:20
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Ei vittu Simon, foliohattua vaan syvemmälle vai uskotko itsekään moiseen hevonkukkuun.
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Jul 13, 2017 10:31
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lol Mestari onkin NKVDn agentti 
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Jul 13, 2017 10:35
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This article ties nicely into the discussion we had a while ago on how voters don't give a poo poo about a strong economy if it means austerity continues, you can't get a job (or they can't get better jobs, or full-time jobs) and wages stagnate. "Why don't we educate and train people into working together with automation?" the politician asked, while gutting education and giving massive corporate handouts. The whole valtiovarainministeriö should be torn down and rebuilt from scratch, except maybe the tax division which was strongly opposed to hallintarekisterilaki. Decades of kokoomus appointments have made it incorrigible. Edit: That Elo interview is the second time I hear the argument that "but but but we can't have a new election, it's Suomi 100 and everything! It'll ruin the celebration!" The other person who said this was President Niinistö. What the gently caress kind of argument is that? Why do you think that elections are a bad thing to have when celebrating 100 years of independence and democracy? Is next year's version of this going to be the centennial of the civil war? Sulphagnist fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 10:35
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Ligur posted:As far as I understand, you think socialism and/or communism are GREAT ECONOMIC IDEOLOGIES, IS GREAT SUCCESS so in the case of failed (or any) economic ideologies shut the gently caress up. You see, your first mistake, as usual, is that you assume you understand anything. Darkest Auer posted:lol, even the Ferengi aren't this comically fygm-capitalist Well, that's true, but his claim is also a transparent lie since GP and his ilk start caring a hell of a lot the moment that the profits go to the state.
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Jul 13, 2017 10:43
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Rexroom posted:Länsimetro is an organizational himmeli-nightmare where no-one is accountable to the other. That said, we know exactly who is responsible for agreeing to that idiotic model. Politicians? If you're going to blame a certain group of politicians then you should maybe consider that the politicians you like who you think wouldn't screw things up might not always (ever) be in power Also lol at accountability when these companies are an excellent way to support groups without getting it approved as part of a budget. The government making cheap fertilizer is a subsidy towards farmers and if energy companies didn't charge market prices, it would be a subsidy towards energy inefficient business. I'd much rather have a budget that's approved by parliament, even if in Finland that means lots of transfers to the middle class, than a subsidy that's not in the budget that goes to already heavilh subsidized groups. DanTheFryingPan posted:babby's first opinion on economics
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Jul 13, 2017 10:56
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Antti posted:The whole valtiovarainministeriö should be torn down and rebuilt from scratch, except maybe the tax division which was strongly opposed to hallintarekisterilaki. Decades of kokoomus appointments have made it incorrigible. VVM should be split in three parts: a budgetary organization (doesn't even have to be a ministry, just make it a department under Valtioneuvosto), a law enforcement agency (containing the Customs Service and poo poo, just put all white-collar crime investigations there) and a revenue service.
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Jul 13, 2017 10:56
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Kemper Boyd posted:VVM should be split in three parts: a budgetary organization (doesn't even have to be a ministry, just make it a department under Valtioneuvosto), a law enforcement agency (containing the Customs Service and poo poo, just put all white-collar crime investigations there) and a revenue service. It's already internally split
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Jul 13, 2017 11:00
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Cerebral Bore posted:You see, your first mistake, as usual, is that you assume you understand anything. Please list all the succesfull socialist states where ordinary people had bread and meat and fine clothing and soap and where the secret police didn't knock at your door in the night and which didn't end up a horrible dictatorship, pls, thnx.
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Jul 13, 2017 11:03
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DanTheFryingPan posted:babby's first opinion on economics Hey now. Caruna and Digita are very good at running their business and producing value for their shareholders. It just so happens that this is not good for us.
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Jul 13, 2017 11:14
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Ligur posted:Please list all the succesfull socialist states where ordinary people had bread and meat and fine clothing and soap and where the secret police didn't knock at your door in the night and which didn't end up a horrible dictatorship, pls, Finland? I don't think Sipilä qualifies as a dictator yet.
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Jul 13, 2017 11:16
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Ligur posted:Please list all the succesfull socialist states where ordinary people had bread and meat and fine clothing and soap and where the secret police didn't knock at your door in the night and which didn't end up a horrible dictatorship, pls, Look buddy, when somebody points out to you that you don't understand something, the correct response isn't to double down on your ignorance. And especially not when you've been arguing with the voices in your head again. EDIT: Darkest Auer posted:Finland? I don't think Sipilä qualifies as a dictator yet. Please don't get the usual suspects started with their no true socialism game, tia. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 11:22
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Darkest Auer posted:Finland? I don't think Sipilä qualifies as a dictator yet. Joking aside I've heard people actually, like, seriously (as in not as comedy) try to argue Nordic countries are socialist/communist  Cerebral Bore posted:Look buddy, when somebody points out to you that you don't understand something, the correct response isn't to double down on your ignorance. And especially not when you've been arguing with the voices in your head again. Look fucktwat, do you think socialism/communism is ok and great and better what we have, or not? If not, I'll take whatever I said above back.
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Jul 13, 2017 11:24
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Also: well documented fact Eagerly awaiting sources to back up your argument.
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Jul 13, 2017 11:53
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DanTheFryingPan posted:Eagerly awaiting sources to back up your argument. It's not an argument, it's financial domination roleplay you're unwittingly taking part in.
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Jul 13, 2017 11:58
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DanTheFryingPan posted:Eagerly awaiting sources to back up your argument. Actually I think you'll find that GP:s kokjugend circlejerks are very well-documented, and that's also when I think you'll start regretting your request.
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Jul 13, 2017 13:16
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DanTheFryingPan posted:Eagerly awaiting sources to back up your argument. https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.12.4.133 review paper exploring the reasons for WHY private companies work better (also giving reasons why some industries like prisons shouldn't be privatized) https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/154955/1/NDL1999-001.pdf review paper looking at the evidence for the impact of privatization on firm performance Just FYI before you throw some blog post back at me, Andrei Shleifer is probably the second most influential economist in the field of institutions and law (and a likely future Nobel prize winner) and Bill Megginson is one of the leading scholars in the financial economics of privatization
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Jul 13, 2017 15:28
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Geriatric Pirate posted:
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Jul 13, 2017 15:36
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Rexroom posted:That's great, but there's no Nobel prize for economics. That also includes the one the Swedish bank issues "in memory of" Nobel. http://chrisauld.com/2013/10/23/18-signs-youre-reading-bad-criticism-of-economics/ quote:Every mainstream science which touches on political or religious ideology attracts more than its fair share of deniers: the anti-vaccine crowd v mainstream medicine, GMO fearmongers v geneticists, creationists v biologists, global warming deniers v climatologists. Economics is no different, but economics cranks differ in that they typically make false claims about the content of economics itself
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Jul 13, 2017 16:05
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Geriatric Pirate posted:http://chrisauld.com/2013/10/23/18-signs-youre-reading-bad-criticism-of-economics/ Wikipedia posted:The Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences (officially Swedish: Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne, or the Swedish National Bank's Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel), commonly referred to as the Nobel Prize in Economics, is an award for outstanding contributions to the field of economics, and generally regarded as the most prestigious award for that field.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:58
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lol at economists getting butthurt over their cargo cult science prize
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Jul 13, 2017 18:22
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