|
I am way too tired and inevitably sick to deal with Kinzo's "gently caress you, got mine" bullshit. Are we going to deal with more twilights this game, or is this going to mix things up?
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 01:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 23:28 |
|
|
7 having been such a carbon copy thus far of course
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 01:40
|
|
|
I would love it if Battler brought back Erika to mess with Bern. Erika drop kicks in all over her story.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 04:29
|
|
|
 BGM: Le 4 Octobre  "We haven't learned anything. 'Who killed Beatrice?' Unless we figure that out, we'll never be able to get out of here." "...You're right. We need to finish this quickly. The funeral is already over, after all." "...You've got it all wrong. This is... the funeral." "You mean, what she's making us do...?" "All of the Beatrices we've heard about so far weren't killed at all. We're trying to understand where the 'killed' factors in. That's the real funeral, as far as Bernkastel's concerned." "...No one knows about the 'killed' factor. And that's the truth we're trying to expose?" "Hmm, you are perceptive. It hardly feels like I'm talking to a piece from the lower plane. So, this is why I was given you as my Watson." "...Ouch!" "Don't call your partner a piece. So, what next, Willard Holmes?" "Questioning witnesses forms the basis of an investigation. There's still a Beatrice we need to ask about." Maria seemed to be lecturing the others about something.  "Wow. Beatrice sounds pretty incredible." "Yeah! And then, inside the upside-down cup, she made tons of candies appear out of nowhere!" "Inside the overturned cup? Incredible. Sounds like magic to me." "...Maria-chan really does love witches and magic." "Can't avoid asking the authority on witches, can we?"If looking for someone to ask about Beatrice, Maria rose to the top of the list. The Beatrice she spoke of wasn't the real Beatrice, whom Kinzo and the others had talked about. However, here and now, on the Rokkenjima of 1986, the name Beatrice probably refers to the person Maria's always talking about. "...I don't see Battler anywhere." A Battler in this world would probably be the piece version, but even so, it should be possible to get some vital information out of him. Will probably wanted to talk with Battler too, but he was nowhere to be seen in the cousins' group.  "Battler-kun did not attend this funeral. It's a shame, seeing as he's the cousin closest in age to me." "Are you two on good terms?" "Yes, of course." "...And you pinch his butt every time he says something perverted." "Oh, how did you know? Did your detective instincts tell you that?" "Poor guy."...Bernkastel said that everything was gathered here. Since Battler isn't here, that probably means it's possible to find out everything without asking for his side of the story. Or, maybe she's intentionally hiding the core elements and making us take the long way around, as part of some fickle witch's game. "Since he isn't here, that probably means there's no need to hear his story for the time being. Let's talk to Maria and the others. I won't say anything perverted, so keep your hands off my rear end." "Then why not try choosing your words a bit more carefully?"With a roguish smile, Lion pinched the air, index finger against middle.  "Ah, it's our Successor-sama. Are you done babysitting the old geezer?" "Gyaah!" "...I see. Since the successor is Krauss's child, then Jessica is your little sister."He was so used to Jessica being an only child that, though the scuffle between the two looked perfectly natural, something didn't feel quite right about it.  "Jessica. Can't you talk a bit more like a little sister's supposed to? And while we're at it, why not try talking more like a girl your age. How many times do I have to tell you to stop calling me Successor-sama?" "Sh, shut up! I'll live the way I want to! I'd suffocate if I had to act all refined like you, Successor-sama...!" "Eeeh?! Ouch! Owowowowow!! Stop it, don't pinch me! This is abuse... pervert... stop it... owow!" "Jessica! Why are you talking like that in front of a guest...! Do you want Mother to scold you again?!" "...Looks like those two are close, in their own special way." "Well, Lion has pretty much everything needed to be the next head, and hardly any faults. I guess I understand how Jessica-chan feels, Lion might be a bit too perfect sometimes." "She gets compared to Lion no matter what she does. And that made her rebel?" "If Jessica-chan had been born an only child, I'm sure she'd have become a composed, quiet young lady... Ahaha, that's an interesting thought." "Don't worry. That wouldn't be enough to change her personality." "George onii-chan, who is this person?" "This is the first time I've met you, correct? But it sounds as though you know a lot about our family. I'm George, and this here is Maria. Pleased to meet you." "Call me Will. I'm investigating Beatrice. I want you to tell me what you know." BGM: In the Sun Though Maria had looked hostile towards this unfamiliar man, as soon as she heard the name of the witch she loved pass his lips, her eyes began to sparkle. "Hey, Maria-chan. You've got to greet our guest properly." "Hello! My name is Ushiromiya Maria, uu-! I'm glad to meet someone who knows Beatrice. Handshake, uu-!" "Nn."Maria suddenly stuck out her small hand, and Will reached out for it reflexively. As soon as he did, he felt a bright light seeping out from the gap between their hands. The theatergoing power that Bernkastel had given him had affected Maria. "Beatrice is the witch of Rokkenjima...! She plays with me every time I come to Rokkenjima! She's my best friend, and a fellow member of Mariage Sorciere! Uu-!!"The light grew brighter and brighter... This time, he could feel himself being drawn into Maria's world...  BGM: L&D Circulation I think I remember Mama showing me a picture long ago and saying 'this is your Papa'. It was a picture of a man with a dark suntan, on a beach wearing a swimsuit. Later on, when I learned what 'Papa' meant, I asked Mama to show me that picture again, but she said it didn't exist. But it did exist. When I drew a picture of it and showed it to Mama, she got really mad and said it didn't exist, or that, if it did, she had already thrown it away. Ever since then, she kept saying that I didn't have a Papa.  "...Did you know? People say you need a Papa and a Mama to have a baby, but that's a lie." "Virgin birth, is it..." "'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel'. If I was a boy, that might have been my name." "Book of Matthew, chapter 1, verse 20." "No, verse 23. Verse 20 is 'But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost'." "...So you think your father is the Holy Ghost." "Everyone said that everyone has a Papa. They said it was strange to not have a Papa, that I was a weird, pitiful child. But when I asked Mama, she said I didn't have a Papa, that he didn't exist. She got mad and hit me even though all I did was ask. So... I didn't really understand who gave birth to me. I was... not right as a human, an immature and irregular creature. I realized I was a strange, pitiful girl, different from everyone else." "It doesn't matter who your parents are or what other people say. You are who you are." "It must have been hard to teach that to a young, immature girl. My kindergarten teacher might have said that to me when I cried after being bullied. But even those words of encouragement couldn't fill the blank space... no, the questions. Those words couldn't answer the questions in my mind." "And the Book is what gave you the answers?" "A priest came to see me."  BGM: Song Without a Name (ver. 2007)To most of the children, it was no different from an ordinary fairy tale they might have heard from one of their teachers. Or maybe it was just a bit too boring for us. Then, at the end, the priest said something important. "That God knows everything?" "Yep. So I asked him. I only have a Mama. I... don't have a Papa. Mama gave birth to me without a Papa. Was that a strange, sad thing? I asked."The priest taught me. He said there was nothing strange about a child having no Papa. After all, Jesus Christ was born of a virgin. And the one who gave birth to him... was the Virgin... Maria...? I was surprised! Maria, the name I was given, was the answer all along.  "I was so surprised, I asked the priest to say it again. He said that the Virgin Maria gave birth to a baby by herself! So, I asked him if that meant I'd give birth to a baby all by myself too." "And how'd he answer that?" "He said the Virgin Maria was with child because of the Holy Ghost. The second part of the Book of Matthew, chapter 1, verse 20. 'For that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost'. That surprised me again! What do you think that means?!" "...You interpreted this to mean that... Ushiromiya Maria had no human father. That your real father was the Holy Ghost."Regardless of what the Bible actually meant, the young, sad girl, who had lost her sense of identity because of her lack of a father, had finally created a way to understand herself. "Once I realized that, I knew why I was different from all the other kids! The ones who made fun of me were all children of Joseph. But I alone was different! I wasn't worse than everyone else...! I was a child of God, a child of the Holy Ghost!! When I got back, I told Mama. I had no Papa. Mama gave birth to me thanks to the power of God."It was probably painful for Rosa when Maria asked about her father. Why did Maria have no Papa, when everyone else had a Papa and a Mama? Every time she was asked this, Rosa flew into a rage and changed the subject. Then, for some reason, Maria had thought up her own answer. She had no Papa. She was the child of Mama and God. It isn't too difficult to imagine that Rosa, after hearing this young girl's explanation, might go along with it as though it were true...  "But I'm different. I was born from Mama alone. I was born of the Holy Ghost! Beato can't create a universe without me. But I... 'have God by my side'. I can make a universe all by myself, along with the Holy Ghost!" "Beato called me the Witch of Origins. And she also said that eventually, I might become a Creator, who could create anything alone. All by myself, I can create something out of nothing! Beato can take that and make it expand infinitely! Ange was the witches' apostle, who would spread the word far and wide!" "And that was Mariage Sorciere." "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. That's why Beato is so great. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same thing. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" "Mariage Sorciere was the nest to prepare me for that! I am Ushiromiya Maria!! Maria, who stands by God's side!!"...If we liken Maria's sense of identity to a universe, then this endless stream of words coming from her might be like the Big Bang. She spent so long tormented over how to interpret her lack of a father. Then, by chance, she saw a line in the Bible that looked like it secretly referred to her, and she finally formed an understanding for herself. The sad girl, who had hated herself for being different from all of her classmates, finally found a meaning for her existence. At that moment, Maria's universe, which had once been nothingness, was born as a clump of ultra-hot, ultra-high pressured energy. ...Then, later on, she went to Rokkenjima, met the Endless Witch who called herself Beatrice, and the clump of energy exploded in a Big Bang, giving birth to their magical compendium. That was the universe known as Mariage Sorciere.   "Sure. Where do you want to start?" "After you decided that you were the child of the Holy Ghost, it's easy to imagine that you gradually became more and more interested in the occult. And then what? Once you reached that state, where did you meet Beatrice, and how did the two of you interact?" "It really did happen all of a sudden, one day. I had wanted to meet the witch called Beatrice, who lived on Rokkenjima. I wanted to meet her as a fellow witch." "At that time, you already thought that you were a witch?" "I did. I already knew more about the Bible and the occult than most adults. So, even though I couldn't use magic, I believed that I was a witch. Kihihi, it's a bit funny, isn't it? That's why I was only a witch apprentice." "When did you meet Beatrice?" "I don't really remember when. But I do remember what it was like. It was really, really sudden."
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 13:31
|
|
|
Oh, Maria.  It was a good story to tell yourself, but taking your fantasy too seriously hurt you more in the end. Uu-.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 14:08
|
|
|
Huh, I was wondering when we'd hit our checkbox for Christian Mythology in this game. resurgam, thank you for pretty much spelling out why Kinzo is a terrible person in exact precision terms. I feel like it's really easy to miss in this nice little love story at times that people can do terrible and horrible things, and even if it was for a good cause, they should still be called out as complete pieces of poo poo. I may be influenced atm by going through the July crisis that started WW1, and all the justifications of "I was doing it for the good of my country" dumbass moments.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 14:34
|
|
|
Ooh, another pretty song!  Oh, Maria seconded. All the same, I cannot blame her for taking her fantasies too far or too seriously, as a) a civilized society does not blame the unwell for being unwell, and b) when a child takes a dream too far, it is the guardian's duty to bring them up short and show why. And the only adults in Maria's life with influence on her are Rosa and Beatrice, both of which were broken and trying to cover up their brokenness with dreams themselves. You'll notice that neither of these guardians, for all of Rosa's talk of reality and Beatrice's talk of healing and succor, have no issue with giving Maria reinforcement with fantasies that are convenient to them, while at the same time rejecting fantasies that aren't convenient (violently, in Rosa's case), creating a double standard. So Maria... really had no good options or prospects for improvement, did she.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 15:38
|
|
|
So, with the assumption that Battler not being there has to be important somehow, I'm going to make a guess that when we do see Battler, he won't be the Battler we know. Whether due to Lion's presence changing things enough that the stillborn swap didn't happen (not that I'm 100% that it did) or some kind of unreliable sprites thing and Battler doesn't look like he thinks he looks (not that he ever described his looks, and I don't know if sprites come under detective view) (this guess inspired by me re-reading the lp of another game with that as its twist)
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 16:26
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 16:28
|
|
|
Hmm. Who was the Beatrice that this Maria met? Kumasawa, maybe?
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 17:31
|
|
|
What to make of Battler's absence. If we assume that this game board is a 'real' and possible world, Will aside, there's a few interesting things to pick up from this update. First, Maria still knows Beatrice, even though Lion exists. This isn't too surprising, since Kanon/Shannon also still exists. And Beato still sounds like a sad, broken person having tea parties with a six year old, so I doubt it's Lion wearing a fancy dress. Incidentally, does It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit extend to Watson as well? Second, Battler isn't here, and that's gotta mean more than just making the mystery harder for Will's magic hand. Presumably there's not going to be a bunch of murders this episode, considering they're trapped in the chapel and the detective have magical expositions powers that would be completely forbidden by Knox's 2nd. Which brings me back to something from episode 4, where Battler asked if the murderers wouldn't have happened if he didn't return. So far it looks like the answer is a resounding yes. Also notable that there's no epitaph in this game since the heir has already been decided. Does this mean that Battler killed Beatrice? By not returning to island even after he finally returned to the family, Battler fully starved Beato of her reason for existing and she finally withered away and died? This is completely unrelated to anything, but I was looking at the profiles and something dawned on me about the one-winged eagle crest. Most of the crests everyone wears are just the outline, the only people wearing a crest that is filled solid with gold are Kinzo, Eva, and Beatrice
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 17:34
|
|
|
Eva and Shannon are also the only ones that have it tattoo'd onto their body apparently I don't see the full gold wing on Beatrice though?
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 17:57
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:First, Maria still knows Beatrice, even though Lion exists. This isn't too surprising, since Kanon/Shannon also still exists. And Beato still sounds like a sad, broken person having tea parties with a six year old, so I doubt it's Lion wearing a fancy dress. Incidentally, does It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit extend to Watson as well? I agree that it's probably a conceptual death, and Battler or Lion are culpable. As for your second question, I don't... think so? It's driving me crazy trying to remember the title, but this reminds me of a super old school, Phoenix Wright-ish VN I played a long time ago, when it was translated by ROM hackers. Basically the twist was that the detective's assistant was the killer. Are there any other detective stories where that is the solution? edit: YEAHHH!!!!! vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jul 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 18:01
|
|
|
witchcore ricepunk posted:I agree that it's probably a conceptual death, and Battler or Lion are culpable. The Portopia Serial Murder Case
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 18:08
|
|
|
Tired Moritz posted:I don't see the full gold wing on Beatrice though? Mini-skirt Beatrice
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 18:33
|
|
|
Tired Moritz posted:The Portopia Serial Murder Case Thanks for the reminder. All the same, I don't think the whole Watson=Culprit loophole matters for Umineko overall, though, since Lion doesn't exist in the prime timeline. That, and the fact that Battler never had an "assistant" when he was the detective.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 19:17
|
|
|
RedMagus posted:Huh, I was wondering when we'd hit our checkbox for Christian Mythology in this game. This actually seems to give some additional meaning to the recurring scene of Maria taking care of the solitary whithered rose in the garden, considering that the rose is an important symbol of the Virgin Mary in Christian art and tradition. In fact, Maria is probably aware of that, with all her knowledge of mysticism. There is also that layer of 'Rosa' being literally the Latin word for 'rose', so one can see a relation to both mother and daughter. This fits with how in Maria's narrative, the one who gives birth as a virgin - and therefore fits the role of Mary more directly - is actually Rosa. On the semantic level, there seem to be quite a few hints that the two are ultimately rather alike in a lot of ways, perhaps more than both would like to admit; wasn't there a scene where it is implied that one reason for Rosa's aggressive reaction to Maria's witch tic is that it reminds her of her own occultish escapism as a child? In light of this it is probably significant that in the first episode, one of the characters (I believe it was George) described the rose Maria cares for as one that has bloomed too early and whithered before its time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 20:38
|
|
|
Carpator Diei posted:In light of this it is probably significant that in the first episode, one of the characters (I believe it was George) described the rose Maria cares for as one that has bloomed too early and whithered before its time. That's some messed up symbolism right there, now that I think about it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 20:42
|
|
|
It's amazing that, seven episodes and who knows how many pages of script into this blasted thing, we're still discovering new ways in which Rosa hosed up. At this point you'd be excused to think that she was actively trying because somehow, against all logic, there's always more and it's always worse.
Aumanor fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jul 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:39
|
|
|
Carpator Diei posted:On the semantic level, there seem to be quite a few hints that the two are ultimately rather alike in a lot of ways, perhaps more than both would like to admit; wasn't there a scene where it is implied that one reason for Rosa's aggressive reaction to Maria's witch tic is that it reminds her of her own occultish escapism as a child?
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:52
|
|
|
lol, it must suck to have your daughter keep talking about a lady that you killed.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 00:09
|
|
|
Tired Moritz posted:lol, it must suck to have your daughter keep talking about a lady that you killed. Rosa needed therapy, or even a sympathetic friend, really, really badly. Hell, all of these folks did. When I think about where I'd be without my friends (and therapist), uhh... it'd be bad. Not murder-bad, but bad.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 00:17
|
|
|
Even Kinzo, at the end of the day, really needed therapy. Or at least someone to not sign off on his incredibly lovely choices.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 01:24
|
|
|
oath2order posted:Even Kinzo, at the end of the day, really needed therapy. Or at least someone to not sign off on his incredibly lovely choices. Yeah. It seems clearer now that, once he got the gold, he was just surrounded by yes-men who didn't care what he got away with, as long as they got their piece.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 02:03
|
|
|
witchcore ricepunk posted:Yeah. It seems clearer now that, once he got the gold, he was just surrounded by yes-men who didn't care what he got away with, as long as they got their piece. Also when he went full on insane people were utterly terrified of him.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 02:29
|
|
|
Years ago, I was participating in the murder mystery read along thread in TBB (also led by ProfessorProf), and someone linked to Shiny777's LP of Umineko, which ended up stopping right when Rosa admitted she killed Beatrice. A week ago, I wandered into LP and saw this thread and immediately read through the question arc and everything up to now. If you read through the old LP, you can see my naive theories like "each episode will pertain to a different section of the epiphet" and "George and Jessica are Battler's friends and would therefore never be up to anything suspicious." Aww me of five years ago.  So thanks for this thread!  It's super funny to me after all this that the most innocent character is probably Gohda. Man just wants to cook.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 02:51
|
|
|
Mecca-Benghazi posted:Years ago, I was participating in the murder mystery read along thread in TBB (also led by ProfessorProf), and someone linked to Shiny777's LP of Umineko, which ended up stopping right when Rosa admitted she killed Beatrice. A week ago, I wandered into LP and saw this thread and immediately read through the question arc and everything up to now. If you read through the old LP, you can see my naive theories like "each episode will pertain to a different section of the epiphet" and "George and Jessica are Battler's friends and would therefore never be up to anything suspicious." Aww me of five years ago. Battler is pretty innocent too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 03:53
|
|
|
Mecca-Benghazi posted:
Just like Walter White.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 04:16
|
|
|
I pray for the day when the Ushiromiyas will stop with their legacy of Bad Touches.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 05:06
|
|
|
EagerSleeper posted:I pray for the day when the Ushiromiyas will stop with their legacy of Bad Touches. That'd be October 6th, 1986. The day they all die in a fiery explosion. Or I guess October 1998 when Ange is murdered by Eva from beyond the grave. Point is, one way to end the cycle of abuse is to kill everyone involved.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 06:15
|
|
|
 BGM: Ballade Continuer  It was so very sudden. I had just been drinking some milk tea, all alone in the rose garden arbor. Mama said that she had to talk about something important with Uncle Krauss, so she told me to go outside and play. Suddenly, she was sitting right there. I didn't know anyone who spoke that way. I quickly realized that she was someone I didn't know at all... "...Who... are you?" "You were the one who first said that you wished to see me. Here I am, welcoming the witch who came to visit my island, and yet you ask my name? *cackle*cackle*." "...B... Beatrice...?" "Precisely. I am Beatrice." "Yep. Really, really sudden. Witches and spirits always exist right beside us. They just choose not to show themselves. And, when they do show themselves, it's always sudden, as though they've been there the whole time. That's what I learned that day." "And then, you and Beatrice became friends?" "Yeah. She stayed and chatted with me the whole time, until Mama was done with her business. We talked about magic... and witches. And about how I was a child of the Holy Ghost." "...And what was your impression of Beatrice then?" "I don't like saying it, but I knew more than she did back then. At first, I thought she wasn't a very good witch." "...Well, that was just my conceit. There are many different kinds of magical compendiums. Also, mine was based on self-study. I probably only viewed Beato that way because her magical compendium was different from mine. It wasn't long before I came to regret that and apologized." "Apologized? Did Beatrice do something to win your respect?" "I see. So, she showed you magic." BGM: Ballade Continuer  "Very interesting. Maria. I see you have been quite diligent in your studies. At your age, to be capable of teaching a thousand year old witch such as myself is truly an accomplishment worthy of admiration. And what sort of magic can you use?" "...Magic?" "If you call yourself a witch, you must be able to show me some sort of magic, correct?"I was stunned for a second. Of course, it should have been obvious. I was a child of the Holy Ghost, and since I'd studied so much of the occult, I was also a witch, not a human. Until that day, I had been so sure of both of those things. So, when I was asked what sort of magic I could use, it left me in a daze...  "When one knows of magic and can speak of it, they finally reach the rank of apprentice. One is only a witch if they can put such knowledge into practice and use magic, correct?" "...So, I'm not a witch yet...?" "You have studied well. And, I can sense a very rare talent within you. One day, you may become a witch so great that even I could not compare, or perhaps even a Creator as you have told me. However, you are still young and immature. You are... yes. You are an apprentice. A witch apprentice, you might call it." "So, does that mean you can use magic, Beato?" "Of course. I could not call myself a witch otherwise." "Incredible... Show me! I wanna see your magic!!"Until this day, Maria had never doubted the magic-related concept that she was the child of the Holy Ghost. However, no one had ever proven to her that occult phenomena actually existed. Maria could create a universe all by herself. However, she wanted to share it with a second person, so that she could believe in it even more strongly.  "You told me about that. You can't use your full power because of the shrine." "It will take quite some time before my power returns. At this moment, I cannot turn rainbows to candy. However, perhaps I can show you a bit of that power with some simpler magic." "I wanna see...! I wanna see your magic...!!" "Very well. However, I must ask you for your assistance. As I have already told you, no matter how pure your soul might be, all humans are tainted and filled with the toxin that resists magic." "Yeah, I remember. You told me about the anti-magic toxin. It wasn't in any of the books I've read. You must really be incredible to know so much."Beatrice lifted up an empty teacup, then turned it around in front of Maria to show that there weren't any tricks or strings.  "How did you know?! You're incredible, Will! You even know about witch magic!" "...Well, that's because... that was really basic witch magic." "It was just a normal cup, without any tricks in it. I wanted to see. I wanted to see true magic."Maria had wanted something. Because she wanted to believe that there was an occult side to her, she wanted to see the occult existing for others as well. That's why she agreed to help Beatrice with her magic. She didn't want her own toxin to ruin her chance of knowing the miracles of magic.  "...Ah. There's candy. There's candy...!!" "As a gift to mark my meeting with a new witch, and as a sign of our friendship, I offer this to you."This... was a true miracle of magic. For the first time, I felt shame and embarrassment at my conceit. I could feel that sense of omnipotence disappear, the idea that I was the child of the Holy Ghost and the most important and special person in the world. Instead of a child of the Holy Ghost who can't do anything, I'd rather be a witch who can use magic...! Ushiromiya Maria wants to become a witch...!! Starting off as a witch apprentice!! I was already fascinated by Beato. "I want to become a real witch too! I want to be your disciple!!" "How modest. You already have an abundance of talent and diligence. Also, though it may have been different when I was at my full power, I cannot take on a disciple in my current state." "...So I can't become a witch's disciple...?" BGM: Far "Really...?!" "Yes. From this point forth, we shall be friends. Let us continue to talk of the deep and profound world of witches." "Uu-!!! Thank you, Beato!! Can I eat this candy?!" "No, let that be a souvenir. Instead of eating it, keep it in that lovely bag of yours." "Right. I'll eat it at home...!! Uu-, uu-uu-uu-uu-!!" "Maria. That candy was brought into being by magic. Therefore, it is fragile. If you deny my existence with that toxin of yours, it will melt and fade away." "Uu-... No. I don't want Beato's precious magic to disappear." "Then be sure that you do not forget your meeting with me. As long as you keep my little promise, I will greet you the next time you come to this island." "Uu-! I'll keep it. What's the promise?!" "Well, to start... When you get home, wash your hands. Then, rinse out your mouth. You must not complain about this, for it is an important part of a witch apprentice's training." "I'll do it! Every day, when I come home, I'll wash my hands! I'll rinse out my mouth! If I do that, will I see you again?!" "I promise it. If you keep your end of the promise, your body will be cleansed, and I will regain even more of my magical power. If that happens, then I will show you magic that is even more incredible the next time you come." "Uu-! I'll keep my promise! No matter what!! I'll do it! I'll become your friend and a witch apprentice!" "Your resolve is heartening, Ushiromiya Maria. I hope that you will quickly grow to become a full witch and my close friend." BGM: In the Sun "And was that candy still there when you got home...?" "Yep. But I doubted a little, so it was half-melted. I regretted almost doubting her. If I had doubted her more, maybe the candy would've disappeared. I almost lost the proof of the magical miracle that had happened before my eyes." "The candy melted?" "Yeah, that caramel started melting. It was all lumpy." "About what time of the year did this happen?" "I'm not too sure. But I remember that the milk tea had ice in it. Why does that matter?" "Never mind. Did you tell Rosa about your meeting with Beatrice?" "Yep. I told everyone about it at dinner that day. Uncle Krauss laughed at me. Then, Mama, who was sitting next to me, got mad and told me to stop talking about it. Uu-." "Next to you...? By your family's ranking system, your seat shouldn't be next to Rosa's." "It wasn't a family conference. It was when just Mama and I came to visit. So, there was only Uncle Krauss's family, Mama, and me. There were fewer people, so we didn't sit in the same spots as a family conference." "...And Rosa was sitting in the seat next to you?" "Yeah. Why does that matter?" "...It doesn't. Have you ever met with Beatrice outside Rokkenjima?" "No. After all, Beato's body is fragile, so she can't go wherever she wants. I told her she could just possess me if she wanted, but she said that she couldn't leave the island." "And after that, you met her every time you came to Rokkenjima." "Yeah. We became really good friends. The more I talked to Beato, the more I realized what an amazing witch she was. She showed me wonderful magic every time I saw her. Then, she told me about a magical compendium that was different from mine, and we both talked together about the mysteries of magic. I wanted to reach her level as soon as I could. I wanted to become the kind of witch Beato was." "Did you ever introduce Beatrice to your mother?" "Nope. She said Mama's toxin was too strong, so they couldn't meet each other yet. Almost all adults are no good when it comes to the toxin. They're all tainted. Kihihihihi." "Was anyone other than you able to see Beatrice?" "They couldn't at first. She said her magical power was weak, so her body would crumble if even a little bit of the toxin reached her. But she gathered magical power bit by bit, and she could eventually appear in front of other people who had small amounts of toxin." "And who was that?" "Specifically?" "All of the servants here today. Uu-? But not Gohda-san, I think." "So, there were four of them: Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and Kumasawa." "And Doctor Nanjo too."Apparently, they would sometimes come to visit Maria and Beatrice's witch tea parties. Of course, it had only been for small things, like bringing them extra tea. However, they were certainly aware of Beatrice, and even talked with her. "...How did the servants react to Beatrice? She was a guest who shouldn't have existed. Weren't they surprised?" "No, they weren't. After all, Beatrice is the other master of the mansion."She said that the servants treated Beatrice as an honored guest. And, sometimes, they were permitted to witness the new miracle of magic along with Maria. "So, on the Rokkenjima of 1986, the ones who could actually meet with Beatrice were you, Nanjo, and the four servants excluding Gohda, for a total of six?" "Yeah. Beato said that she'd need to store up much more magical power before she could appear in front of anyone else." "So, she intended to show herself in front of more people sometime in the future?" "Yep. She said that the day she made all of the humans acknowledge her would be the day of her resurrection." "..." BGM: Lie-alaiaa She had probably appeared before new humans, starting with the ones whose anti-magic toxin was weakest. Beatrice's game was to increase the number of humans who could recognize her, until she could make everyone on the island acknowledge her. Of that, there can be no doubt... In that case, the last person for Beatrice to appear in front of... would be Battler, the one said to have the strongest anti-magical power. ...Does this mean Beatrice thought that Battler would be the hardest one to convince...? It seems true that Battler was one of Beatrice's goals. However, if we go with Battler's chessboard thinking... We might say that Beatrice, who wanted others to acknowledge her existence, was a character who could not exist unless she was acknowledged. Battler reached this thought himself back in the first game. Yes, there is something different about the Beatrice of 1986. She's different from the Italian Beatrice or the Kuwadorian Beatrice, both of whom certainly did exist. The Beatrice of 1986, the one whom we are so familiar with in a mysterious way, yet who has no existence. What does it mean to 'kill' the Beatrice who has no existence?  However, Maria had said that even a single person could give birth to a universe. And yet, Maria had desired a second person. A second person to nurture the world she had given birth to alone. Because if it was born and not nurtured, it would die and disappear? ...Let's replace the word 'universe' with 'Beatrice'. The minimum number of people required to create Beatrice is two. However, even a single person could give birth to her. And yet, that single person desired a second person. A second person to acknowledge the Beatrice created by the first person. That meeting with a second person is the scene that Maria has just described. The single person who created Beatrice had looked for a second person to acknowledge Beatrice... and selected Maria. We don't need Furudo Erika's heartless reasoning to know that the tea cup magic was a sleight of hand. Maria, believing in the story about the anti-magic toxin, would close her eyes whenever magic happened. Any sleight of hand would be possible while she had her eyes closed. The caramel Maria had been given as proof of her meeting with a witch had melted a little because Maria had doubted. In a season where one was likely to put ice in their tea, it was only natural for a caramel left in a bag to melt.  Beatrice appeared first in front of this girl, who had, in the language of witches, very little of the anti-magic toxin... If we liken the creation of Beatrice to the laying of an egg, then when a single person creates her, it is no more than a delusion. Like a chick inside the egg. If, and only if, a second person acknowledges her, the shell cracks, and she appears. She only appears when a second person comes to warm the egg. When Maria acknowledged Beatrice, she finally hatched, and the chick was born. In that case, Mariage Sorciere, which nurtured Beatrice and her magical compendium, was like a nest. Beatrice is the one with the dignified presence, who calls herself the witch of Rokkenjima and who claims to have lived a thousand years. This sounds less like the chick Beato, and more like Beatrice the Elder, who appeared in the previous game. So, does this mean that the meeting Maria has just spoken of marks the birth of Beatrice the Elder...? The egg itself had already been created by 'the first person'. Then, until the meeting with Maria, it matured fully inside its shell, becoming the 'character' with the dignified presence of a thousand years. Then, when Maria acknowledged it, it hatched, and the witch of Rokkenjima finally gained a form. Perhaps, that moment marks the birth of the Beatrice of 1986. The younger, chick Beatrice was born out of love for Battler. Since that birth has not yet occurred at this point in time, then the birth of Beatrice the Elder and the existence of Beatrice at this time must have nothing to do with Battler. Are you enjoying this reasoning, Bernkastel...?  SFX   BGM: L&D Circulation "...What kinds of things?" "Lots and lots. Kihihihihihi. Not telling." "So, you wanted to protect your Mama from the black witch." "How did you know that? You're incredible. Uu-!" "...And you were already sure that your happy world would never return, without a witch's help?" "Yep. I love Mama. She's so nice. I want to be with her forever. For all eternity." "...Now I'd like to hear about Mariage Sorciere." "..." "...What's wrong?" BGM: None  "...Huh?" "I'm thirsty, so I'm gonna go get something to drink. See you later."Maria became suddenly formal, bowed her head, and left without waiting for a reply. It was a very un-Maria-like thing to do. "..."I see. So, the Game Master has moved the piece. Apparently, she's telling me to ask about something different. At some point, Lion had started chatting with the other family members. Jessica seemed to be getting irritated at having her butt pinched so much, and George was trying to calm her down.  Compared to Maria, the anti-magic toxin is very strong in these two. At least at the beginning of the other games, they didn't acknowledge Beatrice. Maria showed me the point of view of one who believes. Now to hear from those who don't. 
Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Jul 14, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 13:28
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:
I must be slow this morning; all the ellipses (even after finding out it's not a conference) suggest that this exchange means something, but I have no idea what Will figured out. Someone want to give me a hand?
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 14:03
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:
So can we take this to mean that Maria actually saw Beatrice meeting with both Shannon and Kanon, being separate bodies at the time (Beatrice being separate from Shannon and separate from Kanon, not necessarily Shannon being separate from Kanon)? idonotlikepeas posted:I must be slow this morning; all the ellipses (even after finding out it's not a conference) suggest that this exchange means something, but I have no idea what Will figured out. Someone want to give me a hand? I think Will was just establishing everyone who was and wasn't actually on the island at the time, although I could be wrong.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 14:16
|
|
|
I can't believe Rosa is Beatrice!!!
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 14:32
|
|
|
Tired Moritz posted:I can't believe Rosa is Beatrice!!! I will admit to having had that thought. Elder Beatrice, anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 14:39
|
|
|
are you saying that Rosa wouldn't dress up as an italian lady to pretend to be a witch to indulge her daughter? This doesn't mean that Shannon didn't do the same thing too. Maybe that's why Rosa got so mad at Maria claiming that she saw Beatrice in the previous episodes, because she's Beatrice and there's no way that she was there.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 14:51
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:I must be slow this morning; all the ellipses (even after finding out it's not a conference) suggest that this exchange means something, but I have no idea what Will figured out. Someone want to give me a hand? I admit that thinking about this hurts my brain a bit. IIRC, they alternate seats based on rank: Ushiromiya OGs, then kids, then spouses. But mainly I'm weirded out that they do this just for informal visits. Confused Llama posted:I will admit to having had that thought. Elder Beatrice, anyway. same actually witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Jul 14, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 15:17
|
|
|
witchcore ricepunk posted:I admit that thinking about this hurts my brain a bit. IIRC, they alternate seats based on rank: Ushiromiya OGs, then kids, then spouses. But mainly I'm weirded out that they do this just for informal visits. Some families are very traditional, especially when it comes to the perquisites of rank. Most of my family in the US is very informal, so when I visited some cousins up north or some kin in Germany and got in trouble for sitting down before my elders or leaving the table without requesting permission from the head first, I was completely bewildered. To say nothing of all the other faux pas I committed because I didn't understand the dynamic or the expectations. But this way of acting is still alive (if not exactly well) and isn't confined to rich, old, Japanese families.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 15:22
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:
I always thought this was interesting because this mirrors Shinto (again); believers are supposed to run water over their hands and rinse out their mouths at home as well as at shrines. I kinda wonder if Beatrice originally went with a more Shinto-style magic system because of the belief that she was constrained by the little torii shrine? Also, you know. It's a good way to get a little kid to wash their hands and brush their teeth.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 15:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 23:28 |
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:I must be slow this morning; all the ellipses (even after finding out it's not a conference) suggest that this exchange means something, but I have no idea what Will figured out. Someone want to give me a hand? You know, this is itching at me too, this part... and would you believe I had forgotten all about the weirdo seating arrangement of the Ushiromiyas, since we haven't had to deal with it for a good few episodes now. As I recall, the seating is: grandpa at head, first generation (his kids), second generation (his grandkids) and spouses/guests, right? So if they follow this same order at other occasions as well as the family conference, the Seating would be diminished, but mostly the same: Krauss across from Rosa, Jessica across from Maria, and Natsuhi on the end (with Nanjo, if he's visiting). In this case, Maria would be sitting next to Rosa, so there's no problem. But see, that's weird this time around because- where the gently caress does Lion sit? He's older than Jessica and the true heir besides, meaning that the seating order is bogus: he would be next to Krauss and across from Jessica, who would be next to Rosa, so if this seating arrangement is still being followed, Maria would be next to Lion, not Rosa. You could say that Lion was just away that day, but Kinzo has been absentia at these things lately and his chair is empty, so depending on how rigorously they promote this seating order, Maria might be sitting next to an empty chair. So this is really bizarre if we allow for the existence of Lion... as well as another hint that this world isn't real.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 16:00
|
|