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Vic is not a hologram in the mirror universe episode. He's human. It's never explained.
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Jul 13, 2017 04:29
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Having completed another DS9 rewatch, I can confidently say that Quark is my favorite character. Shimerman might just be the strongest actor in an already impressive cast.
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Jul 13, 2017 04:34
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FuturePastNow posted:Vic is not a hologram in the mirror universe episode. He's human. It's never explained. It would be infinitely worse if it was Great gag, just like the we don't discuss it with outsiders bit
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Jul 13, 2017 04:34
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FuturePastNow posted:Vic is not a hologram in the mirror universe episode. He's human. It's never explained. I thought he was an android, which has a certain "that's the mirror universe, folks!"  symmetry about it.
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Jul 13, 2017 04:35
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Having completed another DS9 rewatch, I can confidently say that Quark is my favorite character. Shimerman might just be the strongest actor in an already impressive cast. I'll agree to that, adding only that Rene Auberjonois is a close second, and their chemistry is the show's best point, in a way analogous, if perhaps not quite comparable, to Londo and G'Kar in B5.
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Jul 13, 2017 04:46
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McSpanky posted:I thought he was an android, which has a certain "that's the mirror universe, folks!" The only way to make these holograms experience pain is to give them bodies capable of it.
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Jul 13, 2017 04:58
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Having completed another DS9 rewatch, I can confidently say that Quark is my favorite character. Shimerman might just be the strongest actor in an already impressive cast. If we're counting secondary/recurring characters, then Garak's definitely my favorite. Every episode he appears in (minus the mirror universe ones, I guess) are must-watches.
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Jul 13, 2017 04:58
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The extraordinary thing about DS9 is that even the supporting characters (Garak, Rom, Nog, Dukat, Damar, Weyoun, Winn and Bareil) have actual honest-to-goodness story arcs with growth and change and adversity and everything.
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Jul 13, 2017 05:06
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socialsecurity posted:I've seen every episode and I don't think I would recognize the bridge if I saw a picture of it, it was always dark and poorly shot vs say the D bridge which had a very distinct look and feel. I think that's mainly the width: you rarely see the sides, so you never build up a structure.
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Jul 13, 2017 05:09
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The entirely mute Morn, a background bar-stool filling extra has more of an arc than anyone on Voyager.
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Jul 13, 2017 05:09
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shadok posted:The extraordinary thing about DS9 is that even the supporting characters (Garak, Rom, Nog, Dukat, Damar, Weyoun, Winn and Bareil) have actual honest-to-goodness story arcs with growth and change and adversity and everything. Exactly. The only characters that get short-changed are Jadzia and Bashir (to an extent). The former because the writers never really figured out what to do with her character, so she revolved entirely around her relationships with Sisko and Worf. Bashir gains a nice maturity over the course of the show, but then you have that awful misstep with his genetic modifications. After that, he spends most of the final season spouting calculations like he's Data and it doesn't work at all. There's a case to be made for Ezri as well, but I think they did fine considering the character was a late addition to an established cast in the final season of a show wrapping up a huge war arc.
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Jul 13, 2017 05:11
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I like Bashir's arc, and I like the genetic augmentation story. Look at where he starts in the pilot, fresh out of school and excited about "frontier medicine" and by the end of season 7 he has seen enough poo poo go down that he's still a good man but he has no illusions left, particularly after his experiences with Garak and Section 31. I agree with you about Jadzia, and I'd also say that O'Brien has no real story arc either, but it doesn't hurt the show because he doesn't need one: his role is always to be Constant McEveryman.
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Jul 13, 2017 05:20
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shadok posted:I like Bashir's arc, and I like the genetic augmentation story. Look at where he starts in the pilot, fresh out of school and excited about "frontier medicine" and by the end of season 7 he has seen enough poo poo go down that he's still a good man but he has no illusions left. I agree with you about Jadzia, and I'd also say that O'Brien has no real story arc either, but it doesn't hurt the show because he doesn't need one: his role is always to be Constant McEveryman. His middle name is Gets'shiton
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Jul 13, 2017 05:21
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I recently introduced a friend of mine to DS9 and he's loving it, the one criticism he has is that Jadzia is given nothing to do. The last time we talked, he just finished season 1 (so before any of the Dax-Klingon stuff happens) and he noted that in the only episode centered around Jadzia (the one with the extradition trial), she barely even gets to speak. The episode reveals a lot about Trill society and the mechanics of the symbiont but doesn't really tell us much about Jadzia Dax the person.
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Jul 13, 2017 05:37
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vermin posted:The only way to make these holograms experience pain is to give them bodies capable of it. West Space Nine.
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Jul 13, 2017 05:41
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shadok posted:I like Bashir's arc, and I like the genetic augmentation story. Look at where he starts in the pilot, fresh out of school and excited about "frontier medicine" and by the end of season 7 he has seen enough poo poo go down that he's still a good man but he has no illusions left, particularly after his experiences with Garak and Section 31. I agree with you about Jadzia, and I'd also say that O'Brien has no real story arc either, but it doesn't hurt the show because he doesn't need one: his role is always to be Constant McEveryman. I agree with you about Bashir losing his immaturity after being exposed to so much poo poo, I was just criticizing the season 7 episodes in which he doesn't really feature. He's usually just there to do mental calculations or suggest some tech procedure that no one else thought of. His battle scenes on the Defiant in the last ten episodes are especially bad about this. O'Brien doesn't get a ton of growth, but you do get an expanded look at his family life and how he copes when they aren't around. It's not true character growth, but it's still a step above his TNG role and his friendship with Bashir is one of the better relationships on the show. They touch on it occasionally, but I wish they'd explored his "hatred" of Cardassians a little more. It's featured in the episodes with the war orphan and the female engineer, but that's about it. He never really gets a "The Romulans fought with honor" moment. Big Mean Jerk fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 05:51
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https://twitter.com/meakoopa/status/885367954162016257 https://twitter.com/meakoopa/status/885369301452156928
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Jul 13, 2017 07:09
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The Dark One posted:https://twitter.com/meakoopa/status/885367954162016257 Computer, I need a tea setting for two. SPECIFY PARAMETERS Tea, Earl Grey, Hot... Ugly.
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Jul 13, 2017 07:19
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Picard serves replicated caviar when Nechayev comes visiting, and has Data reprogram the ship's doors so they open for her half a second later than they should 
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Jul 13, 2017 07:57
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so I could say that I finally figured out what this god damned cube is doing. Get well Lowtax.
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I didn't like Jadzia at all, I got tired of the "old man" stuff, Ezri was actually an improvement. Weyoun's my favorite. I copy his mannerisms when I have to be polite to somebody I hate.
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Jul 13, 2017 08:54
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spincube posted:...reprogram the ship's doors so they open for her half a second later than they should https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMX9ZAD_h3g
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Jul 13, 2017 08:55
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cheetah7071 posted:I've always wondered how the various non-federation states work. Either they have a bunch of slave/subject species we never see, or the Klingon population must be much much much larger than the Human population, because it has to rival the combined efforts of all Federation member species. Star Trek Online actually has the Klingon empire include several other races, including Nausicaans, Gorn, Orions, Ferasans (legally distinct Kzinti substitutes) and Letheans, though they are noted as a recent development of the Empire expanding and needing more recruits (and also so the Empire faction isn't limited to one race) and variously conquered, annexed, or sought asylum with the Empire. Which results in the amusing development of Gorn, the 8-foot alligator people, being the standard scientists of the faction, complete with their equivalent of the Emergency Medical Hologram being Gorn-based. As for canon Klingons, quite possibly they have various conquered slave planets, vassal states, and worlds that pledge loyalty to the Empire and provide materials, goods and services to the Empire in return for protection as an asset of the Empire, while the Klingons themselves obviously monopolise the military and leadership of the society. The show never really bothered exploring the logistics of galactic grand strategy, probably wisely, so the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, Borg etc. are exactly as powerful and robust as they need to be this week.
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Jul 13, 2017 09:25
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Exactly. The only characters that get short-changed are Jadzia and Bashir (to an extent). The former because the writers never really figured out what to do with her character, so she revolved entirely around her relationships with Sisko and Worf. Bashir gains a nice maturity over the course of the show, but then you have that awful misstep with his genetic modifications. After that, he spends most of the final season spouting calculations like he's Data and it doesn't work at all. There's a case to be made for Ezri as well, but I think they did fine considering the character was a late addition to an established cast in the final season of a show wrapping up a huge war arc. This comes up a lot here, and I totally agree. Just throwing it out there though, what could be done with Jadzia's character? I'm having a hard time thinking of something compelling, apart from basically replacing her arc with Ezri's. Then again, I'm not a writer.
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Jul 13, 2017 09:45
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1000 Brown M and Ms posted:This comes up a lot here, and I totally agree. Just throwing it out there though, what could be done with Jadzia's character? I'm having a hard time thinking of something compelling, apart from basically replacing her arc with Ezri's. Then again, I'm not a writer. I think a large part of the problem is her relationship with Sisko. The writers relied on the Old Man aspect of the character way too much, so you never really get a sense of who Jadzia is, only Dax. There should have been an arc where Jadzia downplays her Curzon past and figures out who she is without Sisko's help. I honestly think you learn more about Curzon and the other hosts than you do about Jadzia over the course of the show. Even with the non-Worf Klingon stuff, it's pulling from Curzon's character instead of Jadzia. Almost every early season Dax episode is her dealing with something from a past host cropping up, whether it's repressed memories or friends of old hosts, etc. You never learn about Jadzia's family or her own hobbies or even any new friendships beyond the occasional meal with Bashir or Kira. So yeah, basically Ezri's arc. I really think her season seven stuff was the writers finally figuring out what they should have done with Jadzia. Big Mean Jerk fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 10:08
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Astroman posted:To be fair, Kirk's description of Klingon Slave Worlds reads a lot like what an American in 1968 would say to a propective Soviet satellite state, and that was pretty much the 1:1 allegory--the Feds were the This makes sense to me, and to further my klingon apologism, I imagine their society might have progressed a bit after having been close neighbors to the federation for over a century. If they were the slave driving monsters kirk describes I imagine the federation might not have been so keen to work with them soon after
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Jul 13, 2017 12:46
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The Dark One posted:https://twitter.com/meakoopa/status/885367954162016257 Oh god, this just plays further into my mental placing of the Brooklyn 99 cast as the crew of the Enterprise D. The admiral is Captain Wunch! For those interested: Holt - Picard Jake - Riker Boyle - Data Amy - Troi Gina - Bev Terry - Worf Rosa - Ro Worf loves his prune juice!
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Jul 13, 2017 13:10
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Bohemian Nights posted:This makes sense to me, and to further my klingon apologism, I imagine their society might have progressed a bit after having been close neighbors to the federation for over a century. If they were the slave driving monsters kirk describes I imagine the federation might not have been so keen to work with them soon after Gorkon did nothing wrong! (((Kirk))) was a fascist.
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Jul 13, 2017 13:24
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shadok posted:Gorkon did nothing wrong! (((Kirk))) was a fascist. What the hell? Kirk wasn't Bajoran.
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Jul 13, 2017 13:55
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shadok posted:The extraordinary thing about DS9 is that even the supporting characters (Garak, Rom, Nog, Dukat, Damar, Weyoun, Winn and Bareil) have actual honest-to-goodness story arcs with growth and change and adversity and everything. Yeah any recurring character on DS9 has more development and character growth than any character of any other series. Possibly entire casts combined. The Doctor was well developed, I don't know why they seemed incapable of doing that with any other Voyager character. Seven managed some too.
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Jul 13, 2017 14:16
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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah any recurring character on DS9 has more development and character growth than any character of any other series. Possibly entire casts combined. Because they deliberately set out to make them uninteresting so as not distract from the aliens of the week.
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Jul 13, 2017 14:20
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Jul 13, 2017 14:22
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The_Doctor posted:Oh god, this just plays further into my mental placing of the Brooklyn 99 cast as the crew of the Enterprise D. The admiral is Captain Wunch! Amy would make a poo poo Troi, and that's saying something because Troi makes a poo poo Troi. "Captain, I'm sensing something... are you upset with me?!"
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Jul 13, 2017 14:24
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Jadzia Dax was a character with an intriguing sci-fi backstory/concept that was also pretty much impossible to write for. I think she'd have to be the main character to really make it work; they could spend a lot of time on showing flashbacks to her previous hosts and stuff like that. But being a supporting character, it was hard to figure out where she was coming from and what motivated her. The best possible thing they could've done with that character concept was what ended up happening by accident, although it would've been a hard sell to a new cast: have us get to know her in one host, then switch to another host so we can see the identity crisis play out.
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Jul 13, 2017 14:34
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Jadzia wasn't impossible to write well, they just didn't do it mostly. They figured that "she's possessed by a worm which contains the souls of past worm buddies" was enough of a character hook, and while it is cool, it doesn't work well as a basis for a character for a couple reasons. 1) it's completely passive, it makes it feel like the worm is the character and she is a mask it wears. 2) they chose to give us plenty of insight into who the past worm buddies were, but astonishingly little into who Jadzia was. 3) Jadzia in the day-to-day isn't a particularly interesting or well-defined character. She's friendly and outgoing, an exemplary science officer, and will try anything once. This isn't the stuff that makes for great drama! She'd be a nice colleague, but for entertainment value, meh. 4) because they didn't give her any interesting attributes or personal backstory (as opposed to backstory of the previous hosts) they couldn't come up with good episodes based on her, it's all shite like Meridian or else exclusively about the symbiont. 5) by the time they finally DID come up with an interesting attribute (she's into Klingons) it got coopted into the "holy poo poo, it's Worf!" plotline. This was actually still an improvement because it gave her character an unusual attribute to cause conflict and tension, but it basically reduced her to Worf's love interest for the rest of the show.
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Jul 13, 2017 14:47
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They really could have done something with her Renaissance Woman routine. She fights with Klingons, gambles with Ferengi, parties with Morn and flirts with whoever she drat well pleases. IIRC, her actor regretted leaving the show, because she was 'basically a superhero'. Someone who's been nearly every role in society and is comfortable doing drat near anything. Maybe they could have come up with something if she'd stayed, but maybe not, and given her gimmick it seems inevitable that Dax takes on a new host during the show. Maybe Ezri's arc could have been done at the start of the show, given it was implied Jadzia recieved the symbiote very recently. But a bit late now.
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Jul 13, 2017 15:00
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Berman admits they could never properly write for Jadzia. I think it's harder because she knows so much and she already knew Sisko as another host. It's pretty glaring how little she gets to do, even in what should her focus episodes. In the one where Bashir is forced to remove the symbiont she is only in the beginning and the very end and spends the rest of the episode in a hospital bed unconscious.
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Jul 13, 2017 15:00
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She's basically a TNG character in the wrong show
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Jul 13, 2017 15:05
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I've mentioned before I think the best route to take would've been two seasons of Curzon and then Jadzia.
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Jul 13, 2017 15:05
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This is a stupid question, but what the hell is going on with their hair?
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Jul 13, 2017 15:09
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FlamingLiberal posted:Berman admits they could never properly write for Jadzia. I think it's harder because she knows so much and she already knew Sisko as another host. I think another big problem with the character is that her relationships aren't super interesting until Worf shows up. The notion that she carries the memory of Sisko's mentor could conceivably be interesting, but apart from the "old man" thing they hardly do much with it. Bashir's got a crush on her -- who cares? They occasionally suggest that she and Kira are friends, which is a little surprising, you wouldn't think they'd get along, but once again there's no episodes where they make this a focus. You'd think that as the science officer she'd have a strong working relationship with O'Brien as chief engineer, but I can't think of a single dialogue between the two. She comes off as an oddly isolated figure which is weird given the type of character they gave her.
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Jul 13, 2017 15:09
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