TG As An Industry - Past, Present, Future - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG As An Industry - Past, Present, Future

Lemon-Lime: Aug 6, 2009

JackMann posted:

Buddy, if you think we're not going to dig into your analogy while ignoring your actual point, I have bad news for you and your views on pastza.

Next you're going to start claiming that pineapple on pizza is Good, and not some kind of unholy abomination.

# ? Jul 13, 2017 19:37

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# ? May 20, 2024 11:11

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Lemon-Lime posted:

Next you're going to start claiming that pineapple on pizza is Good, and not some kind of unholy abomination.

It's both. Hail pineapple Satan!

# ? Jul 13, 2017 19:39

Lemon-Lime: Aug 6, 2009

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

It's both. Hail pineapple Satan!

but pizza toppings.

# ? Jul 13, 2017 19:39

Serf: May 5, 2011

Pineapple is good on pizza if you throw a little ham on there too.

# ? Jul 13, 2017 19:40

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

ettin I think we're going to need a new thread

# ? Jul 13, 2017 19:42

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

But a poptart IS a sandwich!

# ? Jul 13, 2017 19:52

Dagon: Apr 16, 2003

Fallout clearly showed us that the best topping for pizza sandwiches is pineapple atomic bees while watching anime Batman vs Superman, and if you don't disagree you are autistic

Think I got them all.

# ? Jul 13, 2017 19:57

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Those bees, do they have feet?

# ? Jul 13, 2017 19:57

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Lemon-Lime posted:

Next you're going to start claiming that pineapple on pizza is Good, and not some kind of unholy abomination.

Hey, man. I have some bad news.

Pineapple on pizza is fantastic with certain fatty, salty toppings, such as ham and bacon.

# ? Jul 13, 2017 19:58

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

dwarf74 posted:

Hey, man. I have some bad news.

Pineapple on pizza is fantastic with certain fatty, salty toppings, such as ham and bacon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXb9ZU3pkao

# ? Jul 13, 2017 20:07

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Covok posted:

WELP

At least the font I'm using for the logo is free for any use.

You should contact BMD to clarify, but it looks like the license for Whizbang that you would want would be either $50 (which is pretty normal for a font license), or $5 (which is incredibly cheap). It's probably the $50, but who knows? That's still worth it if it makes exactly the product you want.

# ? Jul 13, 2017 20:14

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Leperflesh posted:

Actually what Covok wants is:

Third party accessories are not (necessarily) derivative works. Bearing in mind that actual game mechanics are uncopyrightable, Covok essentially cannot restrict others from publishing third-party supplements to his game: all he can do in that regard is restrict use of his copyrighted material (the images and prose of his book) and any trademark he sells it under (if he trademarks the name of his game, a third party cannot sell their content using his trademark in such a way as to create confusion as to who has created and is selling the work).

And I'll reiterate that what you stated was simply false: granting permission to create derivative works is not on its own a de facto grant of permission to reproduce or distribute the original work in its entirety and without substantial revision.

RE: Moby Vulva, the original work - Moby Dick - was published in 1851. Melville died in 1891: it has been over 70 years since his death, so Moby Dick is in the public domain. The same is true of the recent "pride and prejudice and zombes" type stuff: Jane Austin died in 1817. You could totally replace just one word (or no words) in a public domain work and then reproduce and redistribute it to your heart's content, because those works no longer have any copyright restriction.

And I wanna address this: "reprinting verbatim while adding a short chapter of house rules would almost certainly qualify." Yes, it would qualify as a derivative work: but the new copyright would only pertain to the additions or changes. This would mean distribution of that derivative work would still violate the distribution aspect of a copyright, unless it was released. Essentially such a license would require someone making a derivative work to significantly modify all of the content they reproduced... which could make sense. That said:

Essentially, what Covok seems to want is to permit others to create supplements, but not to re-use the actual copyrighted content of his publication. To do that, he need do nothing more than use a normal copyright statement, and then create a trademark for his game, and license that trademark freely. He can also explicitly state a desire to support third party supplements, and if there is some portion of his copyrightable work that he wants to be reprintable, he could section that out and explicitly grant a license for reuse to that portion. We can see this exact strategy in play for the infamous D20 license.

I just decided to type this in:

quote:

A Friendly Neighborhood Gamer Production
https://fngsite.wordpress.com/ � fngbusiness@gmail.com

Friendship, Effort, Victory
Copyright � 2017 [My Name Here]
All rights reserved.

Inspired by Vincent and Meguey Baker�s Apocalpyse World

No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or
transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying,
recording, or otherwise, without the prior express permission of the publisher.

Personal use is permitted, however. If you with to print the digital copy
of this book out at a printing shop, for instance, I give explicit permission
for you to do so.

Also, I give explict permission to create supplementary products for the title such as custom playbooks, play aids, and the such. All that is required is attribution to the game and the author in the product itself.

Any resemblance to real or fictional characters or worlds is purely concidental.

That Old Tree posted:

You should contact BMD to clarify, but it looks like the license for Whizbang that you would want would be either $50 (which is pretty normal for a font license), or $5 (which is incredibly cheap). It's probably the $50, but who knows? That's still worth it if it makes exactly the product you want.

I mean, it's an ebook,right? So it should only cost 5 USD.

# ? Jul 13, 2017 21:17

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Depends on if you plan to do any Print on Demand.

# ? Jul 13, 2017 21:22

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

I don't think so. The store front puts no different between ebooks and printed books.

http://brittneymurphydesign.com/downloads/bang-whack-pow/

# ? Jul 13, 2017 21:40

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

Covok posted:

I just decided to type this in:

quote:

Personal use is permitted, however. If you with to print the digital copy

Change "with" to "wish" but also don't say "if you wish" because that's a question of intent, not action. But also there's no need to tell someone they can print their digital copy for personal use, because that is already a protected:

Copyright permits printing of an electronic document, but says that you can't sell or distribute that printout seperately. The doctrine of first sale protects an individual's right to sell their purchased copy of an ebook, but if they made printouts, they have to destroy them (or include them with the purchase) as well as destroying any other digital copies made.

I would not recommend trying to write your own legal text. You are more likely to make an error that creates confusion or even accidentally give away a right you intended not to, than to produce something which is widely understood and legally enforceable. I believe a standard copyright statement should be fine in your case, since your intent - to permit a user to print their eBook, and to permit the creation of supplementary materials - are already by default available to everyone. If you want to encourage third-party products, perhaps you could do so from your website or in other ancillary advertising/materials?

e. Yeah my view of the Bang Whack Pow selection of licenses is that the $5 eBook license should be sufficient.

I am not a lawyer and you should not construe any of my advice as being legal advice.

# ? Jul 13, 2017 23:04

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

Leperflesh posted:

Change "with" to "wish" but also don't say "if you wish" because that's a question of intent, not action. But also there's no need to tell someone they can print their digital copy for personal use, because that is already a protected:

That message isn't to the purchaser; rather, it's aimed at the Kinko's clerk who isn't quite sure if this is going to get him fired or not.

# ? Jul 13, 2017 23:30

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Cease to Hope posted:

That message isn't to the purchaser; rather, it's aimed at the Kinko's clerk who isn't quite sure if this is going to get him fired or not.

Yeah, that's actually the reason. I got the idea from Fate Core which included the same thing.

# ? Jul 13, 2017 23:33

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

Here is what McGraw-Hill added to the usual (print) copyright statement of an eBook they published that I purchased recently:

quote:

TERMS OF USE
This is a copyrighted work and The McGraw-Hill Companies, INc. ("McGrawHill") and its licensors reserve all rights in and to the work. Use of this work is subject to these terms. Except as permitted under the Copyright Act of 1976 and the right to store and retrieve one copy of the work, you may not decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer, reproduce, modify, create derivative works based upon, transmit, distribute, disseminate, sell, publish or sublicense the work or any part of it without McGraw-Hill's prior consent. You may use the work for your own noncommercial and personal use; any other use of the work is strictly prohibited. Your right to use the work may be terminated if you fail to comply with these terms."

It goes on to include an "as-is" disclaimer.

I think you could repurpose the above. It explicitly forbids all of the various uses that are reserved to copyright holders, while explicitly acknowledging the right to store & retrieve the eBook, plus the right to use the work for your own noncommercial and personal work. "Use" includes printing: perhaps you could add that explicitly. Something like:

quote:

TERMS OF USE
This is a copyrighted work and Friendly Neighborhood Gamer and its licensors reserve all rights in and to the work. Use of this work is subject to these terms. Except as permitted under the Copyright Act of 1976 and the right to store and retrieve one copy of the work, you may not decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer, reproduce, modify, create derivative works based upon, transmit, distribute, disseminate, sell, publish or sublicense the work or any part of it without Friendly Neighborhood Gamer's prior consent. You may use the work for your own noncommercial and personal use including printing for your own personal use; any other use of the work is strictly prohibited. Your right to use the work may be terminated if you fail to comply with these terms."

# ? Jul 13, 2017 23:53

Jimbozig: Sep 30, 2003; I like sharing and ice cream and animals.

Lemon-Lime posted:

By pasta I mean just plain boiled pasta, no sauce allowed if you're putting it on top of your pizza. Yes, I will generously interpret the -and-cheese as a sauce.

The point being that trying to cram detailed wargaming for the actual match mechanics plus detailed rules for roleplaying the drama is going to lead to a much worse game than if you made either an RPG about the drama or a wargame about playing the matches.

Dude, RPGs originated when some guys decided to slam together wargaming with playing as and deciding poo poo as characters. The thread of RPGs with tactical "wargamey" combat on gridmaps runs unbroken to this day and is still the largest branch of the hobby. Now I love me some PbtA games, but games that have a tactical element are my favourite. They don't need to have a grid - Burning Wheel is still my favourite, and it adds tactical decisions in a different way. You're free to not like the wargamey stuff - plenty of folks here don't. But don't go pretending like having wargaming in RPGs is this weird thing that ruins them.

Here's the perfect analogy to replace your lovely one: An RPG without tactical combat (or in this case tactical sport) is like a pizza without tomato sauce. I've had some amazing pizzas without tomato sauce. I've made some awesome pizzas without tomato sauce myself. Drizzle some herb oil and sprinkle sea salt on a stretchy thin crust and you've got a drat good base on which to build. Pizzas without tomato sauce are more popular these days than they ever were before. Some people don't like tomato sauce on pizza and only like pizzas without it. But pizza with tomato sauce is loving good, is the original,* and is still the most popular variety. Anyone who says "if you cram tomato sauce on your pizza it'll lead to a much worse pizza," is projecting their personal taste onto everyone else. And look, to continue the analogy, using tomato sauce badly CAN ruin your pizza - slather it on too thick and your crust won't crisp up right. Newbies to pizza design often gently caress this up and pour on too much sauce or even the wrong kind of tomato sauce, unaware of the balance necessary for that perfect crust.

* Yes, I know that there were pizzas before tomatoes were put on them, but if you were to see a "pizza" of a few centuries ago, you would not recognize it as one - you'd think it was some other kind of flatbread or focaccia. The tomato pizza is what spread across the world, escaping its Italian origins.

Covok posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXb9ZU3pkao

This dragonballman knows whats up. And that fuckin cat goes and fucks up his own argument at the end of the clip by asking for the onions on his burger to be caramelized. Caramelized onions... sticky, sweet, hmmm... sounds like something else you might put on a burger or a pizza. Grilled pineapple is good on burgers too.

Other sweet toppings that are great on pizza:
- Pears and balsamic vinegar (Pairs well with blue cheese, goat cheese, rosemary. Pairs badly with tomato sauce - use an herb oil instead.)
- Dried tomatoes (Some varieties are quite sweet. All varieties kick rear end on pizza.)

The weirdest pizza I ever made for myself was pickled herring and banana. I was reading a Terry Pratchett book and that's what the grad students at UU were eating in the book, so I decided to try it out. Banana and pickled herring are both sweet, and the pizza was pretty okay. I'm not going to sit here and tell you it was the best pizza ever, but it was definitely a unique experience. My first bite made me laugh out loud - it was like Terry Pratchett had told a joke in my mouth. When he died, I made it again in his memory.

# ? Jul 14, 2017 03:15

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

arguing by analogy is like loving a kangaroo

don't

# ? Jul 14, 2017 03:18

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Pineapple is good specifically on a pizza with ham. It's a combo. You don't do either separate on the pizza.

Lemon-Lime posted:

but pizza toppings.

What the gently caress is a "chip butty?"

Is this one of those UK things that you try to pass off as actual cuisine, like a toast sandwich?

# ? Jul 14, 2017 04:10

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

ProfessorCirno posted:

Pineapple is good specifically on a pizza with ham. It's a combo. You don't do either separate on the pizza.

What the gently caress is a "chip butty?"

Is this one of those UK things that you try to pass off as actual cuisine, like a toast sandwich?

According to google, it's this abomination against God and all his creations.

# ? Jul 14, 2017 04:11

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Covok posted:

According to google, it's this abomination against God and all his creations.

That's just ... carbs.

# ? Jul 14, 2017 04:14

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

gradenko_2000 posted:

That's just ... carbs.

Carbs and shame....carbs and shame.

# ? Jul 14, 2017 04:17

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

This is hilarious because the rest of Europe is busy ruining their fries with poo poo like mayonnaise, meanwhile the UK, always gotta be different, they went with "What if we just stuck some bread on that poo poo?"

# ? Jul 14, 2017 04:24

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

ProfessorCirno posted:

This is hilarious because the rest of Europe is busy ruining their fries with poo poo like mayonnaise, meanwhile the UK, always gotta be different, they went with "What if we just stuck some bread on that poo poo?"

I mean, I don't know if you're American, Cirno, but we kind of are also ruining our body with high fat foods. So are the Candians, in case you're Candian. It's actually kind of hard to avoid as a general trend. I personally blame the fast food industry and its over-reliance of sugar, salt, and fat.

# ? Jul 14, 2017 04:26

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

This ain't about health, this is about taste.

Britain.

Take the bread off.

Just eat the fries.

# ? Jul 14, 2017 04:32

Cassa: Jan 29, 2009

Chips and bread is a fine meal for when you're poor.

# ? Jul 14, 2017 04:42

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

ProfessorCirno posted:

Just eat the fries.

Chips.

# ? Jul 14, 2017 04:43

funmanguy: Apr 20, 2006; What time is it?

Lemon-Lime posted:

Next you're going to start claiming that pineapple on pizza is Good, and not some kind of unholy abomination.

Pineapple is my favorite topping on pizza. I enjoy it most with roasted garlic and mushrooms.

Hail satan

# ? Jul 14, 2017 04:57

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Lemon-Lime posted:

Eurogamer did a profile piece on Mike Pondsmith, which is a pretty good read: http://www.eurogamer.net/amp/2017-07-12-making-cyberpunk-when-mike-pondsmith-met-cd-projekt-red

Though I laughed at that second paragraph.

This got lost in the discussion but I wanted to go back and say that it's a great article if you want an idea of how cool Mike Pondsmith is.

and this is a good quote

quote:

CD Projekt Red shrugged and explained: "We had Communism and we had Cyberpunk."

"And that," Pondsmith says, "sealed it for us."

# ? Jul 14, 2017 04:59

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

funmanguy posted:

Pineapple is my favorite topping on pizza. I enjoy it most with roasted garlic and mushrooms.

Hail satan

Pineapple, Pepperoni, and Jalapenos is my go to pizza.

# ? Jul 14, 2017 05:29

Cthulhu Dreams: Dec 11, 2010; If I pretend to be Cthulhu no one will know I'm a baseball robot.

Leperflesh posted:

If basketball had no bench players/substitutions.

Could still work - you just make taking a breather some sort of ability that refreshes a limited use commodity but you have to sit down for a action or the action is done by you off the bench aka a bad player

# ? Jul 14, 2017 07:44

Ettin: Oct 2, 2010

Halloween Jack posted:

I know that XCrawl exists, but honestly I feel that the first edition is so focused on a setting that is mostly lame

Are you talking poo poo about my boy DJ Devastator?

# ? Jul 14, 2017 08:07

Elfgames: Sep 11, 2011; Fun Shoe

DJ devastator could exist in a better setting and in fact deserves one.

# ? Jul 14, 2017 09:06

DigitalRaven: Oct 9, 2012

gradenko_2000 posted:

That's just ... carbs.

That's babby's first attempt at carbs. Macaroni pie crunch roll supper, that's carbs. Take the Scottish delicacy that is the macaroni pie (yes, mac-n-cheese in a pie), batter and deep-fry it, stick that in a buttered roll, and serve with chips.

"The UK" is a bunch of pansies who can't handle real carb overload hanging off the bottom of Scotland. :colbert:

# ? Jul 14, 2017 12:36

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

ProfessorCirno posted:

This is hilarious because the rest of Europe is busy ruining their fries with poo poo like mayonnaise, meanwhile the UK, always gotta be different, they went with "What if we just stuck some bread on that poo poo?"

The "Horseshoe" passes for local cuisine here in the agricultural hellscape that is Central Illinois.

For the record, that's texas toast, on top of which you put a burger patty, a heap of fries, and cheese sauce.

And as bad as a horseshoe is, that 'chip sandwich' manages to be even worse.

# ? Jul 14, 2017 13:51

Serf: May 5, 2011

I have eaten deep-fried coca-cola

# ? Jul 14, 2017 13:53

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

TOVA TOVA TOVA

Fries and mayonnaise are the best (though I do sometimes prefer sour cream and barbeque sauce mixed), tomato sauce is awful on pizza, and Thai iced tea is the best canned drink. There we go, terrible opinions confirmed :c00l:

Ettin posted:

Are you talking poo poo about my boy DJ Devastator?

I am ready for an entire setting based around bodacious sunglasses.

DJ Devastator and the skull with sunglasses and jammin' kicks can be the key players

dwarf74 posted:

The "Horseshoe" passes for local cuisine here in the agricultural hellscape that is Central Illinois.

For the record, that's texas toast, on top of which you put a burger patty, a heap of fries, and cheese sauce.

And as bad as a horseshoe is, that 'chip sandwich' manages to be even worse.

Important sidenote: The Horseshoe is sometimes served in school lunches in Central Illinois. Or at least still was in the 1990s. And we can only hope it still is today. And that the chip butty is served in English school lunches.

# ? Jul 14, 2017 14:01

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# ? May 20, 2024 11:11

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Elfgames posted:

DJ devastator could exist in a better setting and in fact deserves one.

He'd go great with MC Killz-a-lot

# ? Jul 14, 2017 14:04

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