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The Blue Caboose posted:They're running a tournament that they won't stop emailing me about. From the closed beta it's about what you would expect-- F2P rear end quake with kinda half-baked hero powers. Quake Champions isn't too bad now that they've fixed that embarrassing projectile lag. The early release optimization for variable latency is still awful, however. But it's free to try.
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Jul 13, 2017 21:00
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headcase posted:Regarding CS:GO, I don't see how It could be considered satisfying from a "sport" or spectator perspective to watch someone put a pixel on tiny pixel of head sticking around a crate at lightning speed. There is no back and forth. there is no reacting or recovering. There is just one superfast motion like an old west shootout. The rest is crouching around a flat map. csgo is one of the most popular esports on twitch, frequently dwarfing league tournaments so this is just wrong maybe...?
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Jul 13, 2017 21:06
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Kassoon posted:csgo is one of the most popular esports on twitch, frequently dwarfing league tournaments so this is just wrong maybe...? I am plenty aware of where CS:GO is on the ESports scale. There is no way that is the best thing the gaming industry can come up with. Big companies like blizzard need to try other directions and see what sticks. edit: for the record I am not even slightly interested in how fast someone's reaction time is or how quickly they can move their reticle onto an exposed pixel. headcase fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 21:38
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Kai Tave posted:The thing about different rulesets for comp and casual modes is it would mean anyone trying to go from casual to comp mode would need to essentially relearn huge chunks of the game. I can't imagine what a casual Brood War would look like that would prepare someone for playing Brood War For Real. And conversely nobody who plays comp Brood War is going to want to play a less challenging version thereof. I mentioned this earlier, but in my eyes the non-pro mode for BW is simply a few interface tweaks: auto-mining maybe w/ split waypoints on the town halls, maybe MBS. The game still plays exactly the same. Everything you learn in this mode directly applies to the pro mode. Jumping to pro only involves additional mechanical practice. I also think these changes are minor enough to not be balance breaking. Going full SC2 (i.e. smart casting, entire army on 1 hotkey, smarter AI/pathing e.g. balled up armies) would be though. Even with those changes, it would still take lots of practice to play well, but IMO it brings the barrier to entry down to a level that is more acceptable to US gamers. Yeah, people that currently play BW competitively would probably stick with the pro mode, but BW's issue in the US is hardly anyone plays competitively because it's not a rewarding experience unless you dedicate a poo poo ton of time to it. IMO that's a huge reason why pro BW never really took off here. Probably too late to add something like this that now (though the discussion is somewhat relevant again with the Remastered release looming), but had it been available 10+ years ago I think it would've helped with pro scene popularity. As someone that played BW very competitively as a teenager, I am still extremely hesitant to pickup BW again to get my RTS fix despite preferring it to SC2. My hands hurt and I'm sweating just thinking about it. The Blue Caboose posted:CSGO has this. Casual mode in CSGO has a vastly different ruleset from competitive mode (and there used to even be some minor tweaks between valve competitive and esports modes, most notably timers). BW's issue it only has a pro mode, while IMO one of SC2's issues is it doesn't have a pro mode. Based on the complaints I see with Blizz toning down high skill ceiling abilities, I think OW may be heading toward a similar no pro mode fate that doesn't allow for dominant superstars to emerge. The Blue Caboose posted:The appeal of esports in some sense is that its so much easier to get a pick up game and follow the same rules that the pros do! Sure, pickup basketball plays by some different rules, but that's because of material limitations, i.e. your local basketball court probably doesn't have a referee hanging out.
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Jul 13, 2017 21:58
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The Blue Caboose posted:They're running a tournament that they won't stop emailing me about. From the closed beta it's about what you would expect-- F2P rear end quake with kinda half-baked hero powers. TheRationalRedditor posted:Quakelive nerfed Railgun damage down from 100 years ago because it was finally somehow decided as too dominant a weapon in the hands of really good players despite existing like that for over a decade. Incentivizing people to use zoom in Quake is a garbage move for sure though I swear every version of Quake after Quake 2 has consistently made the railgun feel worse  I miss grapple hook Railgun only Q2DM1 matches. Those were some of my first online FPS experiences. Using some server browser website from Yahoo to find live Q2 servers. 
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Jul 13, 2017 22:17
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A big appeal for csgo is you can have crazy carry comeback plays where one person wipes a team which is only really possible with high damage and fast kills, which is the exact opposite direction that blizzard is going in. It's why people like watching league of legends but not heroes of the storm, in the former you get exciting dives and quick flashy kills, in the latter you get two teams trading blows for a bit until one gives up and walks away. As caboose said having a period of downtime for analysis and explanation built into the game is also necessary, which again doesn't happen when you have the never-ending stalemate.
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Jul 13, 2017 22:21
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Kassoon posted:A big appeal for csgo is you can have crazy carry comeback plays where one person wipes a team which is only really possible with high damage and fast kills, which is the exact opposite direction that blizzard is going in. It's why people like watching league of legends but not heroes of the storm, in the former you get exciting dives and quick flashy kills, in the latter you get two teams trading blows for a bit until one gives up and walks away. As caboose said having a period of downtime for analysis and explanation built into the game is also necessary, which again doesn't happen when you have the never-ending stalemate. It still boggles my mind that LEAGUE OF LEGENDS of all games now occupies this space.
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Jul 13, 2017 22:29
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it boggles my mind that people even watch other people play video games when they could just be playing the game themselves im even more boggled that people would wake up and go to work and earn a small penance each day only to go home and donate it to some schmuck on twitch with their only prize being a passing thank you and shoutout while they play a video game not that i dont totally envy the twitch schmuck who makes a living playing video games somehow
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Jul 13, 2017 22:35
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Snazzy Frocks posted:it boggles my mind that people even watch other people play video games when they could just be playing the game themselves For the same reason people watch professional sports. You could go out and play some football, but that takes time and effort you may not have. You'd certainly be hard pressed to get as good as the people you're watching. also i don't think penance was the word you meant there i think you mean pittance unless you meant that playing ow is like a punishment in which case ok yes you're right
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Jul 13, 2017 22:41
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People have been spending countless hours doing nothing particularly active or productive and spending countless dollars entertaining themselves for longer than you have likely been alive. Game streams are no different. You realize there are people that seriously don't understand why someone older than a teenager would even touch a video game, let alone play one for more than a few minutes at a time right? It's really just a matter of perspective.
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Jul 13, 2017 22:43
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Snazzy Frocks posted:it boggles my mind that people even watch other people play video games when they could just be playing the game themselves yeah this joke has already been done 
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Jul 13, 2017 22:48
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Yeah I invite all my friends over for barbeque and we drink tons of booze while watching pro streamers in peak physical condition play videogames, don't you??? PogChamp
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Jul 13, 2017 23:18
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turtlecrunch posted:Yeah I invite all my friends over for barbeque and we drink tons of booze while watching pro streamers in peak physical condition play videogames, don't you??? PogChamp My buddies and I are doing this for EVO this weekend. We will probably also do it for Overwatch World Cup Top 8 at Blizzcon too. Dorky? Sure. We don't give a gently caress though, poo poo is fun to watch.
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Jul 13, 2017 23:22
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My friends and I did it for Apex season 2 semi-finals and finals. E: not the barbeque part because it was at about 3am, but the drinking beers and eating snacks part.
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Jul 13, 2017 23:31
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turtlecrunch posted:Yeah I invite all my friends over for barbeque and we drink tons of booze while watching pro streamers in peak physical condition play videogames, don't you??? PogChamp I know you're trying to make that sound totally bizarre but actually I could totally do that. Streams are TVs that sometimes shout insults back at you.
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Jul 13, 2017 23:31
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The issue with competitive OW for me is that the pro level and the Bronze/Silver/Low Gold tier the vast majority of people play on is so different it may as well be a different game and it just creates a disconnect. On the Stylosa coaching vids phrases like "Why are your team camping the spawn doors, don't they know that's suicide?", "Hmm a team with no tanks or healers, well this isn't good" and "Your team needs to hold the high ground, why are they just running round?" gets said. It gets said with such incredulity like everyone knows this but it happens all the time and no one seems to learn. On something like CS:GO on a simple level if your aim is good and you know the maps you can be productive, on OW you can be the best nailed on solder ever seen but if no one actually gets on the point then you'll never win. Even a bunch of kids kicking a soccer ball around work somewhat as a team, they can emulate the pros by passing the ball and talking to each other, this just doesn't happen for the majority of OW players.
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Jul 13, 2017 23:35
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people buy tickets and travel to attend big esports lans so idk why the concept of getting together to watch one at home is so strange
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Jul 13, 2017 23:46
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ok but what about twitch stardom and the insane amounts people donated to be noticed by senpai
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Jul 14, 2017 00:09
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blizzard is trying to meld esports and traditional sports in a very weird way that i can't quite wrap my head around, and i really don't think will succeed, but waypoint has an article up about it: https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/9kwne3/overwatch-league-is-about-giving-blizzard-control-but-may-hurt-the-gameSnazzy Frocks posted:ok but what about twitch stardom and the insane amounts people donated to be noticed by senpai this is mostly lonely people with lots of disposable income looking for instant-gratification attention.
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Jul 14, 2017 00:09
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Those are usually kids that were just going to blow their allowance on candy and jacks anyway
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Jul 14, 2017 00:11
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I'm happy enough to throw bits at some video game playing people and use my twitch prime free sub thing. I even donate game codes lying around for small tournament prizes to some. I like to support channels because I like things and want people taking time out of their life to do things to get paid for things but don't like much attention drawn to myself. What kind of hosed up creature am i?
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Jul 14, 2017 00:16
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Eh it's like tossing a street performer or musician a couple bucks when you pass them. It's no big deal and it's how they make or supplement a living.
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Jul 14, 2017 00:19
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Snazzy Frocks posted:ok but what about twitch stardom and the insane amounts people donated to be noticed by senpai Not really that different than sports/music uberfans that buy VIP tickets to meet the players/musicians, just twitch fans can spend far less money doing so and more of it goes to the performer.
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Jul 14, 2017 00:25
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Snazzy Frocks posted:ok but what about twitch stardom and the insane amounts people donated to be noticed by senpai Why do you care about what people do with their money? [edit] Kerrrrrrr posted:blizzard is trying to meld esports and traditional sports in a very weird way that i can't quite wrap my head around, and i really don't think will succeed, but waypoint has an article up about it: https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/9kwne3/overwatch-league-is-about-giving-blizzard-control-but-may-hurt-the-game Blizzard's approach is an unproven model in esports, so yeah, the OWL is a huge risk. I don't see what's hard to understand about the concept of the league though. teagone fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 00:30
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AceClown posted:The issue with competitive OW for me is that the pro level and the Bronze/Silver/Low Gold tier the vast majority of people play on is so different it may as well be a different game and it just creates a disconnect. People playing high level Overwatch aren't freaky super-mutants playing a vastly different game. If anything the gulf between low level play and high level play is narrower than in other games...there are no animation cancels, no technically demanding combos, no high level movement techniques to separate, say, someone extremely proficient at rocket jumping from someone who simply can't do so, etc. The difference between high level play and lower level play largely just comes down to raw aim skill and gamesense, and even for those players whose aim skill is likely to peak sooner there are characters for whom aim can be substituted with gamesense and positioning (like Winston). High level players aren't playing a radically different game, they're playing the same game as everyone else, they just do it better.
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Jul 14, 2017 00:32
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I'll never respect esports the way I respect hockey or lacrosse or any other sport, but I understand both the appeal and the potential for growth in them
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Jul 14, 2017 00:36
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I mean there are massive amounts of sports elitism within the traditional sport world itself. Sports fans don't even respect all sports equally. It's stupid at all levels. It's loving sports. It's all a game at the end of the day done for entertainment. Everyone is constantly looking for some arbitrary reason to elevate themselves over others and it is pretty ridiculous when people choose to do it over their choice of entertainment.
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Jul 14, 2017 00:48
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I remember when an X-Games medalist in skiing said pro gamers don't deserve recognition for their achievements because they sit on a couch and the internet dumpstered her. https://twitter.com/Clayster/status/693886474027012096
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Jul 14, 2017 00:58
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the big difference between a physical sport and an esport is that it's culturally acceptable to take the former seriously but not the latter. football and dota are both still things kids play casually for fun I don't think the term esport has done them any favors in that regard tbh. it sounds really insecure and it's easy to make it seem condescending
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Jul 14, 2017 01:00
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It's because people see it as "esports = video games = kid poo poo = waste of time" which makes it easy to dismiss. Understandable, but we're heading into a generation where gamers are adults now, and are fostering a generation of new gamers.
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Jul 14, 2017 01:02
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Manatee Cannon posted:the big difference between a physical sport and an esport is that it's culturally acceptable to take the former seriously but not the latter. football and dota are both still things kids play casually for fun Esport as a term is basically self-deprecating. Like it was a concession so the cool kids wouldn't stuff them in the lockers. Also, keep in mind we live in a world where it is ok to be a professional dart player or card player (but only certain types of cards you see) but not video games. ESPN showing darts and cards for years? Ok. ESPN showing Street Fighter? People were losing their poo poo over it last year. ToastyPotato fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 01:03
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Would it have been better if "Pro Gaming" caught on instead of "E-Sports"? I honestly don't think it would make a difference.
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Jul 14, 2017 01:04
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teagone posted:Would it have been better if "Pro Gaming" caught on instead of "E-Sports"? I honestly don't think it would make a difference. I think it would have diffused the "HURR DURR NOT A SPORT" argument, but it would just open the door to "lol "PROFESSIONAL"" jabs instead.
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Jul 14, 2017 01:06
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I doubt it. if they want it to be treated as a sport, they should have just called it a sport like poker is a sport so why not csgo or w/e
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Jul 14, 2017 01:06
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Manatee Cannon posted:I doubt it. if they want it to be treated as a sport, they should have just called it a sport I think most people would never call poker a sport, and have no idea that anyone else considers poker a sport
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Jul 14, 2017 01:41
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IronicDongz posted:I think most people would never call poker a sport, and have no idea that anyone else considers poker a sport Curling, then.
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Jul 14, 2017 01:55
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IronicDongz posted:I think most people would never call poker a sport, and have no idea that anyone else considers poker a sport What about pro chess players, or spelling? Spelling Bees are aired on ESPN, right? [edit] Speaking of E S P O R T S, reminder that the first Overwatch World Cup group stage matches in Shanghai are scheduled to start at 11 PDT tonight https://www.twitch.tv/playoverwatch teagone fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 02:20
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teagone posted:I remember when an X-Games medalist in skiing said pro gamers don't deserve recognition for their achievements because they sit on a couch and the internet dumpstered her. She was right
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Jul 14, 2017 02:37
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The Blue Caboose posted:There's lots of back and forth in CS, just maybe not on the single 1v1 engagement level. The engagements happen quickly, but there is a lot of strategy in the set up and an established meta layer. You get set plays (check out Luminosity's (or whoever their sponsor was, the Brazilian team that is now SK) smoke take on Mirage A circa like... early 2016?). Sometimes you see real personal brilliance (1v5 clutch aces happen). But the tempo of CS:GO leaves time to breath. Each round unfolds with a relatively predictable tempo-- CSGO hits some of the same notes as something like poker, where there's a lot of tension that builds as more people get eliminated. Overwatch is idk something more like hockey or football where you've got the ability to zoom in on individual performance like a killer goalie or a play-busting defense tackle but it allows you to also appreciate the big team plays too. The tension gets going near the end but it isn't the slow burn culminating in 3 shots to the head and a last second defuse of CSGO, it's the 40-yard scramble full of laterals in garbage time at the end of the game to claw a win out of thin air.
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Jul 14, 2017 03:39
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The most exciting moments in Overwatch occur when you have long-running overtime on a non 2CP map. There was a pro game a few months back on Gibraltar where both teams pushed it all the way to the end so it went to tiebreaker, and the first team up had so little time in the bank that they would essentially be in overtime before they reached the first checkpoint, so everyone figured that it was gonna be a matter of "how far can they get before they get wiped" only they didn't get wiped, they actually successfully pushed the payload in perpetual overtime all the way to the very end of the map, then successfully wiped the other team when sides switched and wound up winning the match. It was exciting because it was one of those things where a single mistake meant the whole thing was over and you kept waiting for it to happen but it somehow never came. Overtime can suck a lot when it's the Zapp Brannigan defense on a 2CP map stretching into infinity, but every now and then you get a game like that where it's actually worth it.
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Jul 14, 2017 03:52
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