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I love... Will. I love him. He's the only person who has interacted with Maria in any reasonable way.
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Jul 14, 2017 16:07
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resurgam40 posted:But see, that's weird this time around because- where the gently caress does Lion sit? He's older than Jessica and the true heir besides, meaning that the seating order is bogus: he would be next to Krauss and across from Jessica, who would be next to Rosa, so if this seating arrangement is still being followed, Maria would be next to Lion, not Rosa. You could say that Lion was just away that day, but Kinzo has been absentia at these things lately and his chair is empty, so depending on how rigorously they promote this seating order, Maria might be sitting next to an empty chair. So this is really bizarre if we allow for the existence of Lion... as well as another hint that this world isn't real. quote:The seat at the head of the table, called the Incipient's Chair, was for the most highly ranked, reserved for Grandfather. It was still empty. He was probably planning to come in last to ham it up. It says, the person "ranked at number two" sits at the Head's right hand. So going by that logic... everything checks out? (I put in Macklemore as a fuckboy substitute to mark Rosa's husband's spot, which apparently is reserved every time.)
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Jul 14, 2017 16:07
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But Lion's seat would still be where Kinzo's empty seat was, at the head, not along the side right? So the order would be the first way you mentioned, which leaves Rosa next to Maria. Edit: Beaten I think (can't see the picture) Mecca-Benghazi fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 16:07
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Mecca-Benghazi posted:But Lion's seat would still be where Kinzo's empty seat was, at the head, not along the side right? So the order would be the first way you mentioned, which leaves Rosa next to Maria. Oh, sorry, let me reupload on a hosting site. I never really know what happens to attachments on here. Anyway, let me throw in v2! Basically, if Lion sits next to Kinzo as the successor, there's no problem. But if we shuffle them into the grandkids' section, Maria's recollection doesn't add up.  
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Jul 14, 2017 16:18
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witchcore ricepunk posted:It says, the person "ranked at number two" sits at the Head's right hand. So going by that logic... everything checks out? (I put in Macklemore as a fuckboy substitute to mark Rosa's husband's spot, which apparently is reserved every time.) Very good catch (and good use of Macklemore!), but back a few updates, we have: ProfessorProf posted:
So if Krauss is acting head until Lion is 20, and this is implied to have happened a number of years ago (2-3? Maria wasn't that clear)... I don't see why Krauss woukdn't be seated in the number two seat. Which would mean that your second image would be correct in this case.
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Jul 14, 2017 16:40
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"...The successor to the headship is supposed to be Krauss."
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I get here first-thing after I wake up an already everyone has beaten me to all the reasoning I was going to post. Still, gonna echo how interesting it is that Maria saw both Kanon and Shannon with Beatrice (though presumably not both at the same time.) (Also this gets really hosed up by the existence of Lion.) As for the seating arrangement, it could also work out if Lion is allowed to sit in the head's seat as a stand-in for Kinzo because like hell he's gonna leave his study for just Rosa. This doesn't fit with previous seating charts but we've never seen a meal with an officially designated heir before. But most important of this update is this ProfessorProf posted:Are you enjoying this reasoning, Bernkastel...? Well, #witchchat? Are you not entertained?
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Jul 14, 2017 16:51
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ZiegeDame posted:Well, #witchchat? Are you not entertained? SFX
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Jul 14, 2017 16:51
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resurgam40 posted:So if Krauss is acting head until Lion is 20, and this is implied to have happened a number of years ago (2-3? Maria wasn't that clear)... I don't see why Krauss woukdn't be seated in the number two seat. Which would mean that your second image would be correct in this case. I guess what we can conclude from this is that this Maria is not from the same game board as Lion. It seems like the game is just reiterating that E7 is a bunch of universes stapled together.
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Jul 14, 2017 19:31
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I wonder how George interacts with Lion, on a one-to-one basis.
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Jul 14, 2017 20:38
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Hmm, with this I may need to reconsider Moon-chan as an actual possibility. As I noted earlier, the Beatrice that Shannon met bears striking similarities to Jessica (though her spiel early on is reminiscent of Eva). Assuming theatregoing authority can be taken as truth in the same way detective authority can, the Beatrice that Maria met is not any of the servants, yet is still theoretically limited to the people who were there at the time - Krauss's family, Rosa, and the servants. So Moon-chan might be in on it, especially if she didn't die in 2 as I theorised at one point. resurgam40 posted:Very good catch (and good use of Macklemore!), but back a few updates, we have: It's theoretically possible that Lion would be seated above Rosa, though, as eventual-head would probably be considered higher up in the succession, but yeah I'm thinking it's more pointing to the fact it's a patchwork board. ProfessorProf posted:
Seems to be a missing portrait here, though I assume it's Will.
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Jul 14, 2017 20:53
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"No. After all, Beato's body is fragile, so she can't go wherever she wants. I told her she could just possess me if she wanted, but she said that she couldn't leave the island."
"Yeah. We became really good friends. The more I talked to Beato, the more I realized what an amazing witch she was. She showed me wonderful magic every time I saw her. Then, she told me about a magical compendium that was different from mine, and we both talked together about the mysteries of magic. I wanted to reach her level as soon as I could. I wanted to become the kind of witch Beato was."
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I'm not sure that Maria needs to have seen the servants speak to a separate person called Beatrice. All that would be required to satisfy what she said is that one of them says "oh, I am now communing with the spirit of Beatrice! She says you look nice today, Maria".
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Jul 14, 2017 20:59
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ProfessorProf posted:
That's...theoretically possible, I suppose, but the description seems to suggest otherwise.
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Jul 14, 2017 21:11
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"All of the servants here today. Uu-? But not Gohda-san, I think."
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Cyouni posted:That's...theoretically possible, I suppose, but the description seems to suggest otherwise. You can "talk" with someone who's not there, though, like if you're humoring a little kid's imaginary friend. Plus, I think all of the servants mentioned (plus Nanjo) have already been shown to do that with ghost!Kinzo.
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Jul 14, 2017 21:20
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witchcore ricepunk posted:You can "talk" with someone who's not there, though, like if you're humoring a little kid's imaginary friend. Plus, I think all of the servants mentioned (plus Nanjo) have already been shown to do that with ghost!Kinzo. Even Maria's imaginary friends have physical bodies, like stuffed animals or porcelain dolls, so there'd need to be some object to stand-in for Beatrice in such instances. And if people are allowed to lie in the exposition zone I'm not sure what good theater-going authority is, and even Maria can tell the difference between a real person and her magical friends. My weird twins theory is starting to sound less and less weird, though for anything in this update to makes sense Maria has to be telling a story about the other gameboards.
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Jul 14, 2017 21:46
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witchcore ricepunk posted:You can "talk" with someone who's not there, though, like if you're humoring a little kid's imaginary friend. Plus, I think all of the servants mentioned (plus Nanjo) have already been shown to do that with ghost!Kinzo. Counterpoint: Regarding the teacup story, This story really happened!! As such, the Beatrice that Maria met was not an imaginary friend.
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Jul 14, 2017 22:18
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Cyouni posted:Counterpoint: Regarding the teacup story, This story really happened!! As such, the Beatrice that Maria met was not an imaginary friend. Refresh my memory about where that red statement came from?
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Jul 15, 2017 01:16
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Refresh my memory about where that red statement came from? It was during the segment where some character I've forgotten about bullies a small child. Right near the beginning of the last Episode.
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Jul 15, 2017 01:32
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Refresh my memory about where that red statement came from? Edit: Witch'd Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Jul 15, 2017 |
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Jul 15, 2017 01:37
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Cyouni posted:Counterpoint: Regarding the teacup story, This story really happened!! As such, the Beatrice that Maria met was not an imaginary friend. So who was it? I could buy the argument that in this universe, it was Jessica or Rosa, I guess. It just seems kind of awkward to fit that red statement into this world, since so much is different! witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jul 15, 2017 |
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Jul 15, 2017 02:30
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witchcore ricepunk posted:So who was it? I could buy the argument that in this universe, it was Jessica or Rosa, I guess. It just seems kind of awkward to fit that red statement into this world, since so much is different! Consider this. We've figured, through seat arrangement, that this Maria is from the "Lion-less world". If she saw Shannon/Kanon at the same time as she did Beatrice, the person she met cannot be the same person as Shannon/Kanon. This, in turn, means that our assumptions have been incorrect, and we need to revisit them.
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Jul 15, 2017 03:15
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Cyouni posted:Consider this. We've figured, through seat arrangement, that this Maria is from the "Lion-less world". If she saw Shannon/Kanon at the same time as she did Beatrice, the person she met cannot be the same person as Shannon/Kanon. But if Shannon can be in the same room as Battler and an "invisible" Beatrice (see E1), then can't the inverse be possible for Maria's scene?
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Jul 15, 2017 04:59
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I'm telling y'all. Weird twins.
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Jul 15, 2017 05:38
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witchcore ricepunk posted:But if Shannon can be in the same room as Battler and an "invisible" Beatrice (see E1), then can't the inverse be possible for Maria's scene? I...honestly have no idea as to what you're referring to in E1. Mind clarifying?
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Jul 15, 2017 07:24
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Cyouni posted:I...honestly have no idea as to what you're referring to in E1. Mind clarifying? https://lparchive.org/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni/Update%2017/ Midway down when Maria shows up.
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Jul 15, 2017 07:26
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I just think it's interesting how much Beatrice cribbed their magic system from a nine-year-old.
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Jul 15, 2017 07:44
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havenwaters posted:https://lparchive.org/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni/Update%2017/ Midway down when Maria shows up. Oh, that. I mean, theoretically you can argue that the Beatrice that Maria talked to never existed. But then you run into problems with theatregoing authority also being deceptive (and where Maria conjured caramel from) and the red in the previous episode. Why is it so unlikely that the "invisible" Beatrice there was simply something planned by the actual person posing as Beatrice?
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Jul 15, 2017 08:04
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Something that just occurred to me, is it possible that there are any actual golden-colored butterflies living on the island? A cursory googling of butterflies native to Japan lead me to this guy as a potential stand-in for Beatrice when Kanon or Shannon is around.
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Jul 15, 2017 15:55
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Cyouni posted:Oh, that. I don't think we know enough about theatregoing to say whether or not the image shown are equivalent to red statements.
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Jul 15, 2017 16:07
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We know for a fact that they aren't, because Maria described the candy trick as real. But they are most likely accurate representations of how the character being interrogated sees the world; Maria believes that that was magic, so it's presented that way. Similarly she believes that the servants have met Beatrice, so she's able to say it whether it's true or not. I'm not willing to give up on S=K=B based on this; I still think a completely reasonable explanation from Maria's point of view is "Beatrice is sometimes invisible". If Shannon is also Beatrice, for instance, she ought to be able to hold a conversation with an invisible version of herself, and even tell Maria what "Beatrice" is saying. In fact, she'd probably be pretty good at guessing what Beatrice might say! The same would go for the rest of the servants named there, since we think that apart from Gohda they're already in on the conspiracy. (Although with anyone else, of course, Beatrice could appear in person.) Even if we assume it's always the same person pretending Beatrice is there, it wouldn't have to appear to be the same servant, since Maria is not likely to be aware of S=K.
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Jul 15, 2017 16:17
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Cyouni posted:I mean, theoretically you can argue that the Beatrice that Maria talked to never existed. But then you run into problems with theatregoing authority also being deceptive (and where Maria conjured caramel from) and the red in the previous episode. Why is it so unlikely that the "invisible" Beatrice there was simply something planned by the actual person posing as Beatrice? It probably doesn't always have to be one or the other. Maria probably did meet with a real person acting as Beatrice in at least some instances (the first instance with the candy in the cup, for example), but it's possible that Beatrice could also have been an invisible imaginary friend at others (once the idea that Beatrice 'has trouble maintaining her form' has been planted in Maria's head). It's also possible that the person Maria calls Beatrice isn't the same human every time; she doesn't say anything about knowing Beatrice by her appearance, only her speech patterns, which are relatively easy to imitate. ProfessorProf posted:Suddenly, she was sitting right there. I didn't know anyone who spoke that way. I quickly realized that she was someone I didn't know at all...
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Jul 15, 2017 16:17
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I think the "Suddenly, she was sitting right there" is interesting too, if we're to believe Beatrice was there in the flesh. It kind of sounds like Yamada just switched speech patterns on her, like going from "Good morning, Maria-sama" to "ahaha.wav" in an instant.
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Jul 15, 2017 16:27
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witchcore ricepunk posted:I think the "Suddenly, she was sitting right there" is interesting too, if we're to believe Beatrice was there in the flesh. It kind of sounds like Yamada just switched speech patterns on her, like going from "Good morning, Maria-sama" to "ahaha.wav" in an instant. Or they just used their superb stealth skills to sneak up on a 5-6 year old.
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Jul 15, 2017 16:32
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well, Maria does believe in possession.
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Jul 15, 2017 16:32
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We have a birthday today, by the way.
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Jul 15, 2017 16:58
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witchcore ricepunk posted:I think the "Suddenly, she was sitting right there" is interesting too, if we're to believe Beatrice was there in the flesh. It kind of sounds like Yamada just switched speech patterns on her, like going from "Good morning, Maria-sama" to "ahaha.wav" in an instant. I'll point out that Kanon's been described as appearing in the exact same way constantly (at the very least, from Shannon's perspective), and I'm decently sure that he's done so at times when it's not explainable with a S=K personality change. I suppose I could see the "invisible Beatrice sometimes" thing working. It seems a lot easier to do that for times where 'Beatrice' doesn't have to do anything, instead of times where someone visits to bring them extra tea (and presumably leaves afterwards), and 'Beatrice' can still independently carry on a tea party with Maria at the same time. Unlike Sakutaro, Beatrice isn't originally a creation of Maria's mind, and so it'd be a lot more difficult to maintain that if constant independent action was required. Theatregoing very much isn't red (or we'd be going "well, witches have to exist now"), but I agree with the likelihood that it represents an accurate portrayal of what that person saw.
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Jul 15, 2017 17:03
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Cyouni posted:I'll point out that Kanon's been described as appearing in the exact same way constantly (at the very least, from Shannon's perspective) I think you proved my point with this. He can appear so suddenly because he only exists in her mind in those scenes, not because he has arcane ninja powers. Also, happy birthday Battler! Sorry that you probably died horribly  edit: happy birthday ZiegeDame!!!  editedit: yeah but Umineko is all about deconstructing those tropes right? witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Jul 15, 2017 |
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Jul 15, 2017 17:09
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^^^ But it's a common trope for a servant to appear when needed and go unnoticed when not needed.ProfessorProf posted:We have a birthday today, by the way. It's me. Thanks for noticing.  (Yes, I have the same birthday as Battler.) ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Jul 15, 2017 |
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Jul 15, 2017 17:10
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ZiegeDame posted:^^^ But it's a common trope for a servant to appear when needed and go unnoticed when not needed. Stealth Battler here. Happy birthday, and may you be not as incompetent as the person whose birthday you share. witchcore ricepunk posted:I think you proved my point with this. He can appear so suddenly because he only exists in her mind in those scenes, not because he has arcane ninja powers. Like I said, I'm decently sure that he's been described as doing the same thing in other spots that can't be explained that way, but I'd actually have to go back and find every Kanon-appearance. Reminder again that an imaginary friend can't conjure up caramel and make it appear from under teacups...unless they're a witch! 
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Jul 15, 2017 17:59
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ProfessorProf posted:We have a birthday today, by the way. ZiegeDame posted:It's me. Thanks for noticing. 
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Jul 15, 2017 21:41
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ZiegeDame posted:(Yes, I have the same birthday as Battler.) Happy birthday! May you receive what you wish for, and not be trapped in any kind of deadly murder game.
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Jul 15, 2017 22:09
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