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Now, just to put out there, the variation the book I'm reading suggest recapturing the pawn with the knight here for black. If our opponents opt to do this, we would likewise do well to block their bishop with our knight on f3, I believe. Thoughts?
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Jul 15, 2017 22:05
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So long as they continue to not give our pawn any attention, using our Knight to protect our Queen at f3 seems like a solid strategy.
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Jul 15, 2017 23:59
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bman in 2288 posted:So long as they continue to not give our pawn any attention, using our Knight to protect our Queen at f3 seems like a solid strategy. If they don't take the Queen bait (someone in the other thread has to notice, right?) they will probably kill our c6 pawn with either their Knight or their pawn. If they take it with their pawn, I'd rather move back our bishop to e2, because their pawn structure is hosed up already and a pawn there is blocking their Knight development, but if they use their Knight to take our pawn, your suggestion is a drat fine move. Something like this, black to move:  First of all, I'd rather develop a Knight than a pawn, second , we prepare for castling if needed and third: if they want to trade (which they wont if we use our pawn), we can take the Bishop with our Queen and threaten both Knights. Also, we have two pieces pointing at c6, and both can check their King if they go there. That's scary. Absolutely nothing they can do in 1 move from that position can threaten us, except maybe their Queen going to a5, b6 or d5, which we can counter by developing our other Knight to protect the Bishop or advancing our pawn to c4 (which, by the way, is an awesome position to be in because we completely dominate the centre and may even get an extra turn by chasing the Queen away if they dare to move to d5). So yeah, I agree. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jul 16, 2017 |
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Jul 16, 2017 00:17
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 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ c6 5.dxc6 Nxc6 You have 24 hours to decide on a move.
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Jul 16, 2017 12:31
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Nf3 looks pretty good Protects our Queen More coverage/protection of d4 and other central squares Bringing another piece into the mix Maximum horseplay
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Jul 16, 2017 12:38
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Agreed with NF3. And in case anyone happens to be worried about that one pawn we have out, their C6 Knight isn't allowed to take it. Attempting to do so means that would mean that their King would be placed into Check thanks to our Bishop, and you aren't allowed to deliberately move into check on your turn.
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Jul 16, 2017 12:42
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Is there a reason why they won't respond with Bf3 afterwards? Or do we not mind if that happens? My thinking is that line will result in them having two knights out while we only have a bishop and a bunch of pawns, but I'm not sure know how bad/good that board state is. E: oh wait, if they do that then we can do Qf3 and develop our queen, is that right? blizzardvizard fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Jul 16, 2017 |
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Jul 16, 2017 12:53
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blizzardvizard posted:Is there a reason why they won't respond with Bf3 afterwards? Or do we not mind if that happens? Yep. We can't take the G4 Bishop with our Queen now, since the F6 Knight can capture our Queen if we do. But if that Bishop moves to F3, then our Queen can come out to play while capturing a piece in the process.
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Jul 16, 2017 13:07
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sebzilla posted:Nf3 looks pretty good Agreed. Nf3. Dr. Fetus posted:And in case anyone happens to be worried about that one pawn we have out, their C6 Knight isn't allowed to take it. Attempting to do so means that would mean that their King would be placed into Check thanks to our Bishop, and you aren't allowed to deliberately move into check on your turn. *puts on sunglasses* the pin is mightier than the sword.
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Jul 16, 2017 13:08
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I'm leaning on Nf3 as that gets our knight into play and if they REALLY want to trade a Knight for a Bishop they can. Other options: f3 - just sticks a pawn in the way, will likely cause them to retreat their Bishop but frankly I'm not sure to what end. Willing to listen to arguments either way for f3 or Nf3 but as I said, leaning on Nf3 purely for development reasons.
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Jul 16, 2017 13:12
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Also yeah, considering what pieces being moved would place the King into Check is also an important to look out for at times, since that can open up moves that previously wouldn't work. As an example, as of this moment, that C6 Knight is essentially a complete non-entity. Moving it at all would place the King in Check.Gridlocked posted:I'm leaning on Nf3 as that gets our knight into play and if they REALLY want to trade a Knight for a Bishop they can. Yeah, I see absolutely no benefits to H3. That pawn wouldn't do anything, and we would just be giving away a Queen for free or trading her for a Bishop if we decide to use our King to get rid of it. Which would be a fantastic trade in Black's favor at this point in time, and locks us out of Castling our H1 Rook as an option. That's also why NF3 is an appealing move. It'll open up King-side Castling to get our King to safety while getting our Rook into a far more active position.
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Jul 16, 2017 13:19
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I'm happy with Nf3. I wonder if Nc3 is worth consideration, also?blizzardvizard posted:Is there a reason why they won't respond with Bf3 afterwards? Or do we not mind if that happens? We could also respond to Bf3 with gxf3. Tasty, tasty bishop, at the cost of not having a nice clean kingside castling. 
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Jul 16, 2017 13:27
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Alright, throwing my vote for Nf3.
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Jul 16, 2017 13:33
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Cloud Potato posted:I wonder if Nc3 is worth consideration, also? Unless I'm missing something, Nc3 kills our Queen in exchange of a Bishop, it doesn't seem a good trade. Care to elaborate?
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Jul 16, 2017 13:35
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Yeah, and using the Knight to potentially threaten the Bishop capturing our Queen is redundant, since our King is already doing that.
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Jul 16, 2017 13:38
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What are their moves off Nf3 VS f3 then?
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Jul 16, 2017 13:56
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Gridlocked posted:What are their moves off Nf3 VS f3 then? Off 6.f3 they want to move their Bishop back, either to f5 (which is meh) edit: e6 (even meher) or d7 (which unpins their Knight). If they go d7 they have this position, our move:  This is dangerous because they have 2 pieces (Knight and Queen once the Bishop s out of the way) aiming at our pawn at d4, so if we don't defend it it goes like: their Knight takes our pawn, our Bishop takes theirs, Queen takes our Bishop and we cannot take their Knight, losing us a pawn. So before that happens we have to do Ke2, which is all kinds of a horrible place for a Knight to be in, or advance our c pawn to c3, and then both our Knights are blocked. Out of 6.Nf3 I can only see them either a) taking our Knight (so we take their Bishop with our Queen and threaten both of their Knights) or b) move their Queen to d5, b6 or a5 to free their queenside for a castle, to bring the Rook into play and threaten the d column again. We have two possible answers, either c4 or Kc3, both of them covering our Bishop and threatening the Queen if they go to d5. So they either end up with Queen on the a or b columns, and mostly blocked by other pieces or (hopefully) we force her to run away for a bit, giving us time to develop other pieces. Ideally, we end up with something like this, their move, and they have to run away with their Queen .  Notice how we're threatening 6 squares on the 5 line. Several of them with 2 different pieces. That's contrling more of our share of the board, and it limits their options a lot. And if they go to the a column with their Queen instead of d5 we end up with something like this, their move:  Not sure where they will go from here, but if they castle to bring the rook to bear we take their Knight, they take our Bishop and their King becomes very, very exposed. Compare to our eventual castling to the right side. They don't lose tempo, but that Queen is in a bad spot to do anything. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jul 16, 2017 |
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Jul 16, 2017 14:49
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Thanks for the post Samurai, will have to read it after work. Edit: Actually what about Ne2? Our kings-knight can move there as well as f3. It blocks the same as Nf3 and gives us a Knight covering the pawn in the center similar to the scenario you've posed Samurai regarding f3 but with the added layer of protection. Ne2 -> they can't move their knight on c6 because of the pin; they do SOMETHING maybe retreat the bishop but if they don't we can f3 (or h3 but I still hate h3 because it removes cover from that castle) to threaten it forcing them to react MINUS the issues you've discussed regarding our d4 pawn because it's now protected by out knight Thoughts? Gridlocked fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jul 16, 2017 |
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Jul 16, 2017 15:06
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Gridlocked posted:Thanks for the post Samurai, will have to read it after work. I believe Knight to f3 to be a better position for our knight. There's no particular reason we want to move up our f pawn; this is actually a weaker position for our king-side pawn structure than h3 (h3 being the preferred move, in fact, to kick off the bishop eventually) That said, Nf3
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Jul 16, 2017 15:23
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Things are going to get interesting soon, but for the moment: Nf3 is the move.
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Jul 16, 2017 16:12
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I have a feeling our opponents may try to kick off our bishop with a6 on their move: If they do so, we should either move back to e2 (the defensive move that unpins both knights):  or capture their knight with our bishop (the offensive move that removes a threat against our d4 pawn while ruining the ability of our opponents to safely queen-side castle once they recapture with their pawn):   Thoughts?
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Jul 16, 2017 16:30
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What if, after we move Nf3, they decide to develop their f6 instead of doing what you said? Maybe they intend to throw us off via weird moves like that.
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Jul 16, 2017 17:16
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bman in 2288 posted:What if, after we move Nf3, they decide to develop their f6 instead of doing what you said? Maybe they intend to throw us off via weird moves like that. Their...f6? Did you mean what if our opponents played e6?
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Jul 16, 2017 17:20
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Nf3 works for me.
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Jul 16, 2017 17:45
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Nf3, sure
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Jul 16, 2017 17:46
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jon joe posted:Their...f6? Oh dear, I meant if they moved their Knight from f6 to wherever, instead of what we've currently predicted they do. It's a weird move and I don't know what it'll do against us.
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Jul 16, 2017 20:09
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bman in 2288 posted:Oh dear, I meant if they moved their Knight from f6 to wherever, instead of what we've currently predicted they do. It's a weird move and I don't know what it'll do against us. I mean, if they did that it wouldn't be a very good move, so I don't think we need to worry about it very much. Even if they did, it offers near 0 threat so we just play, happy our opponents wasted a turn.
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Jul 16, 2017 20:14
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Let's stick to the plan and go Nf3.
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Jul 17, 2017 02:05
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And that's 10 votes!
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Jul 17, 2017 02:50
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Nf3 because I wanna contribute, too.
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Jul 17, 2017 03:32
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jon joe posted:I believe Knight to f3 to be a better position for our knight. There's no particular reason we want to move up our f pawn; this is actually a weaker position for our king-side pawn structure than h3 (h3 being the preferred move, in fact, to kick off the bishop eventually) We're past the threshold at this point so I may as well seal the deal with Nf3 Though I still wonder about the Ne2 into f3 line for removing the bishop and protecting our center pawn.
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Jul 17, 2017 08:12
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You do get bragging rights if Nf3 ends up being a mistake, so that is a plus.
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Jul 17, 2017 08:35
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Fat Samurai posted:You do get bragging rights if Nf3 ends up being a mistake, so that is a plus. Yeee
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Jul 17, 2017 08:36
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Nf3 wins the vote!
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Jul 17, 2017 11:18
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 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ c6 5.dxc6 Nxc6 6.Nf3 Black has 24 hours to decide on a move.
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Jul 17, 2017 12:10
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Just home from football so brain kinda dead atm; I don't have any sims of this current scenario (drat you paywall  )Observations though for the smarter guys to work out: 1) They can't Nxd4 because of the pin into check. 2) They COULD retreat the Bishop from g4 as jon joe suggested, which is good because he appears to have a plan for that. However presently the Bishop isn't actually threatened. 3) They COULD simply Qxd4 where in we can consider trading our Queen and a Pawn for their Queen and either a Bishop or a Knight. I know most people shy away from trading queens early but points wise we DO come out ahead in that trade and we're even on loss of Q power. 3.1) Edit: Actually they can't capture with the knight if we do this.... 6.Nf3 Qxd4 7.Qxd4  4) They could do something weird like Qa5 and check our king but I'm 99% we can castle out of that to give our Rook some field time and also offer the value trade of Rook for Queen. 5) They could also do b6 or something and threaten our Bishop that way but we have a reasonable out to that as well with our unmoved knight. Gridlocked fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 12:35
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Fun chess fact: You cannot castle if the king or the squares it must move through/to are threatened.
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Jul 17, 2017 15:48
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Also, I do believe sims fall under the purview of "chess engines", which are verboten.
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Jul 17, 2017 15:51
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Anyway, the book recommends here Qb6 for black and I agree that it appears to be the best move for them. The book offers 5 alternatives for white in response, though only 3 of them are any good. The 3 good alternatives are, in order from worst to best (according to the book):  c4. This move offers the most flexibility to us going forward, but the book suggests that it leads to the eventual capture of our pawn on d4 if played perfectly by both side, removing white's pawn advantage and leaving us with a poor board state (compared to Black's, at least).  Nc3. Requires extremely precise play by both sides to maintain a good game. If black messes up past this point it's devastating, but the same goes for us. The slightest wasted move on either side is ruining. We maintain our pawn advantage for a slight position disadvantage with this move, according to the book.  Bxc6+. Apparently the best move for white, and it's easy to see why. First of all, Black MUST recapture with their queen, rather than pawn. If they fail to do so, it hurts them a lot. Second, it prevents an immediate castle from black for threatening our pawn on d4, giving us an additional turn to put together a mounting offensive with h3 to push away the bishop, once again delaying the castle of our opponent and providing us with a movable knight. Of course, best case for black (according to the book) is to capture our own knight with their bishop rather than retreat, which we then must answer with a queen capture, queen recapture with our pawn. All said, I believe to agree with the book on Bxc6+ being our best option. That said, I'm open to alternatives; the author himself did admit he didn't understand how to counter black attack's perfectly, so it's perfectly possible that there are inaccuracies. I'd love to discuss these ideas more fully, or any other idea. Emmideer fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 16:40
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| # ? May 20, 2024 17:51 |
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Page from the book:
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Jul 17, 2017 16:46
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