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Baron Porkface posted:The Jewish exile in Babylon is pretty shady too, unless the exile only refers the the ~1000 most important Jews. There at least is independent historical evidence for it. The Egypt story is devoid of any, but there were some Jews in Babylon who didn't want to be there. Probably a typical taking of hostages to ensure good behavior situation.
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Jul 16, 2017 03:02
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Grand Fromage posted:There at least is independent historical evidence for it. The Egypt story is devoid of any, but there were some Jews in Babylon who didn't want to be there. Probably a typical taking of hostages to ensure good behavior situation. There's also the Edict of Cyrus. While the version in the Bible is specific to the Hebrews, the real thing has been found and Cyrus does indeed say that he "resettled all the gods of Sumer and Akkad whom Nabonidus had brought into Babylon to the anger of the lord of the gods in their shrines, the places which they enjoy. May all the gods whom I have resettled in their sacred cities ask Marduk and Nabu each day for a long life for me and speak well of me to him" So the Jews saying "Cyrus said we could go back and rebuild our temple" was technically correct, they just left out that Cyrus said that everybody could go back and rebuild their temples.
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Jul 16, 2017 03:13
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Yeah, that's the independent evidence I was talking about. I don't know of any archaeological support, or if there is some if you'd be able to distinguish it from Jews living in Babylon willingly.
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Jul 16, 2017 03:18
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I was there it was lit af and the Jews back in Judah were just jealous.
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Jul 16, 2017 03:22
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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah, that's the independent evidence I was talking about. I don't know of any archaeological support, or if there is some if you'd be able to distinguish it from Jews living in Babylon willingly. There's a direct citation in Babylonian records: "In the seventh year, in the month of Kislev, the king of Akkad mustered his troops, marched to the Hatti-land, and encamped against the City of Judah and on the ninth day of the month of Adar he seized the city and captured the king. He appointed there a king of his own choice and taking heavy tribute brought it back to Babylon."
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Jul 16, 2017 03:23
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I meant more Jewish artifacts discovered in Babylon that'd let you identify a Jewish neighborhood or whatever.
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Jul 16, 2017 03:27
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Grand Fromage posted:I meant more Jewish artifacts discovered in Babylon that'd let you identify a Jewish neighborhood or whatever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoiachin%27s_Rations_Tablets
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Jul 16, 2017 03:28
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Neat. Cuneiform strikes again.
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Jul 16, 2017 06:28
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Looking at beautiful art from Pompei and Herculaneum, pre-romanesque and romanesque art seems like a step backwards. Was it a conscious choice for early medieval artists or was it simply the best they could do given the overall decline of society (less educated ruling class, less resources for art, some techniques lost)? I'm not an artist, not even as a hobby but I believe that in time I could learn to copy and reproduce Roman paintings. Somebody more gifted who is also a stonemason or a woodworker could also copy sculpture. And yet there are no poorly done copies of Roman stuff all the way until Renaissance...
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Jul 16, 2017 18:07
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Doctor Malaver posted:Looking at beautiful art from Pompei and Herculaneum, pre-romanesque and romanesque art seems like a step backwards. Was it a conscious choice for early medieval artists or was it simply the best they could do given the overall decline of society (less educated ruling class, less resources for art, some techniques lost)? It's possibly not the skill it's the pigments. A lot of colors are hard to create between the science and the sourcing.
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Jul 16, 2017 18:20
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Choice. There's no decline in talent and quality of the work. At least according to the ancient art historians I had to read, art history was never my thing. Much of our view of Rome still comes from Renaissance and Victorian thought on the subject, and they viewed the Middle Ages as the nadir of history and thus everything related to that, like late antiquity, was also bad. The classical era was the high point, and classical era art valued careful attention to realism. Why did that change to the stylized, flatter and more medieval looking stuff? I don't know that there's an answer. Fashion and style just changes sometimes. Some of it is the change in subject matter. It's not a coincidence the style changes as Christianity grows to dominance. Christian art at the time is less concerned with being perfectly accurate in depicting the material world, since it's just a passing phase on the way to the important stuff after death.
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Jul 16, 2017 18:21
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Grand Fromage posted:Choice. There's no decline in talent and quality of the work. At least according to the ancient art historians I had to read, art history was never my thing. Much of our view of Rome still comes from Renaissance and Victorian thought on the subject, and they viewed the Middle Ages as the nadir of history and thus everything related to that, like late antiquity, was also bad. The classical era was the high point, and classical era art valued careful attention to realism. This is definitely a misstatement of the art history re: Victorians, since the Victorian era is famous for Gothic revival, romantic visions of the medieval world, and, most importantly, John Ruskin's Stone's of Venice, kind of the founding document of modern art history, which argues in favour of medieval art at the expense of classical art because it required greater individual craftsmanship and creativity and was more organic.
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Jul 16, 2017 19:05
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skasion posted:The story of Egyptian captivity and exodus is essentially ahistorical, it's a mythic metaphor for the Babylonian captivity yeah. The Jews did not come from outside Canaan and conquer it, they were from there. However the myth of Exodus was obviously consciously created as a myth, during the Babylonian exile, as an illustration of the principle that God's people have been through poo poo like this before and God will bring us through poo poo like this again. I don't think it was any kind of unintentional misplacement of actual history, it was being composed during the events that it mythicizes. That's not the position of most academics working in the field. Yeah, there's no way Exodus happens as told in the Bible, but the cultural memory of the Exodus is pre-exilic. It starts popping up after Egyptians leave Canaan around the time of the 20th dynasty, about 500 years before the Babylonian exile. So it's very likely a response to being freed from the yoke of Egyptians, it's just that Egypt left them to deal with bigger problems at home, not that the Semitic people fled from Egypt.
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Jul 16, 2017 19:12
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Disinterested posted:This is definitely a misstatement of the art history re: Victorians, since the Victorian era is famous for Gothic revival, romantic visions of the medieval world, and, most importantly, John Ruskin's Stone's of Venice, kind of the founding document of modern art history, which argues in favour of medieval art at the expense of classical art because it required greater individual craftsmanship and creativity and was more organic.
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Jul 16, 2017 19:25
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Giorgio Vasari? Never heard of him!
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Jul 16, 2017 19:33
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Actually, Pliny 
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Jul 16, 2017 20:11
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The Phlegmatist posted:That's not the position of most academics working in the field. How do you mean popping up? As in references appear in stone inscriptions or something else? Possibly relevant but the discussion about Samaritans early had me looking at their Wikipedia page and apparently they still use the first 5 books of the Bible as their scripture, including exodus. However they probably adopted it in the same period as the Jewish canon was established during a messy transitional period subsequent to the end of the Babylonian captivity but before the two communities completely split.
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Jul 16, 2017 20:29
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This is a good read if you have JSTOR access. But basically we know from Egyptian records that they were in Canaan and enslaving the Canaanites, and using the documentary hypothesis to date Biblical texts we know that the oldest texts in the Pentateuch would be contemporaneous with the decline of Egyptian rule in the Canaanite lowlands.
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Jul 16, 2017 21:33
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Doctor Malaver posted:Looking at beautiful art from Pompei and Herculaneum, pre-romanesque and romanesque art seems like a step backwards. Was it a conscious choice for early medieval artists or was it simply the best they could do given the overall decline of society (less educated ruling class, less resources for art, some techniques lost)? One thing you always need to remember: most of the paintings and statuary and all of that that ever existed has been lost or in some way recycled. I mean heck, you can go to a local thrift store and see some random paintings that were donated out of an old house, and they'll be visibly deteriorated after less than a century, just because people were a bit lazy and didn't keep it well. There could easily have been tons of art that looked Roman, or even like later art, but it was very easy for it to disappear. Even stuff that had been preserved for 800 years straight say, one stray fire starts where it's being held in 1758 and it's all ruined, and certainly no one took a photo to prove it had been there.
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Jul 16, 2017 23:57
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HEY GAIL posted:bruh. the founding dude of modern art history is jj winckelmann, who i'll always put a good word in for because he grew up poor and educated himself, and was also gay as all hell Ruskin wrote a damned fine sentence though, and, more importantly, in English. I've heard Winckelmann could as well--I haven't even read a translated work of his which I should rectify since I love him for being gay as all hell. How's he read in German?
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Jul 17, 2017 00:54
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Pontius Pilate posted:Ruskin wrote a damned fine sentence though, and, more importantly, in English. I've heard Winckelmann could as well--I haven't even read a translated work of his which I should rectify since I love him for being gay as all hell. How's he read in German? edit: it's been translated though. he invented the idea that a civilization's products go through "growth," "maturity," and "decline" like a human life
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Jul 17, 2017 01:23
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fishmech posted:One thing you always need to remember: most of the paintings and statuary and all of that that ever existed has been lost or in some way recycled. I mean heck, you can go to a local thrift store and see some random paintings that were donated out of an old house, and they'll be visibly deteriorated after less than a century, just because people were a bit lazy and didn't keep it well. I'm not sure I follow this argument. We have countless busts of Roman and Greek emperors, politicians, philosophers, etc. We don't have anything similar for e.g. Charlemagne or William the Conqueror. It's much more likely that they never commissioned such sculptures of themselves than that they did but they all got destroyed.
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Jul 17, 2017 02:04
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Grand Fromage posted:Neat. Cuneiform strikes again. There are also these, the Al-Yahudu tablets, so called because they refer to a Babylonian village called "Al-Yahudu", which basically means "Judah-town" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Yahudu_Tablets
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Jul 17, 2017 02:06
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Doctor Malaver posted:I'm not sure I follow this argument. We have countless busts of Roman and Greek emperors, politicians, philosophers, etc. We don't have anything similar for e.g. Charlemagne or William the Conqueror. It's much more likely that they never commissioned such sculptures of themselves than that they did but they all got destroyed. the bust of charlemagne freaking owns
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Jul 17, 2017 02:07
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HEY GAIL posted:the bust of charlemagne freaking owns That's amazing. Although I don't think it's really the same thing as Roman Imperial statuary since it was made 500 years after Charlemagne's death.
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Jul 17, 2017 03:12
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Ein Sexmonster posted:That's amazing. Although I don't think it's really the same thing as Roman Imperial statuary since it was made 500 years after Charlemagne's death.
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Jul 17, 2017 03:17
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Doctor Malaver posted:I'm not sure I follow this argument. We have countless busts of Roman and Greek emperors, politicians, philosophers, etc. We don't have anything similar for e.g. Charlemagne or William the Conqueror. It's much more likely that they never commissioned such sculptures of themselves than that they did but they all got destroyed. Because it was very in vogue to use that style at that point, and many other civilizations were particularly fond of them and kept them around, only for other cultures to loot 'em and keep them around, and so on. Even so, a ton of them are beat to poo poo from what they once were, and that's with mostly a history of people trying to preserve them. But also you don't need the kings and other fancy guys to commission these things for dedicated artists to be making them. You just need that sort of thing to ensure they might get preserved, and made in such large numbers that you'd find a lot of them around today.
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Jul 17, 2017 03:26
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HEY GAIL posted:my point is you can't look at these people and conclude their art was bad Particularly since their art includes cathedrals.
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Jul 17, 2017 03:27
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Disinterested posted:Particularly since their art includes cathedrals.
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Jul 17, 2017 03:35
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Disinterested posted:This is definitely a misstatement of the art history re: Victorians, since the Victorian era is famous for Gothic revival, romantic visions of the medieval world, and, most importantly, John Ruskin's Stone's of Venice, kind of the founding document of modern art history, which argues in favour of medieval art at the expense of classical art because it required greater individual craftsmanship and creativity and was more organic. I dunno anything about Victorian art except interminable novels.
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Jul 17, 2017 04:23
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Grand Fromage posted:I dunno anything about Victorian art except interminable novels. Royal Courts of Justice in London  Sacre-Coeur de Paris  The hall of Peterhouse, Cambridge  The Palace of Westminster  Sint-Petrus-en-Pauluskerk, Ostend  etc. etc. This gothic revivalism is across all forms of culture, not just architecture, e.g. quote:O what can ail thee, knight-at-arms, Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idylls_of_the_King or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Morte_d%27Arthur Disinterested fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 04:59
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Ein Sexmonster posted:That's amazing. Although I don't think it's really the same thing as Roman Imperial statuary since it was made 500 years after Charlemagne's death. There's this:  It was still made after Charlemagne's death...probably in the 9th century, but it's either him or his grandson, Charles the Bald.
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Jul 17, 2017 06:05
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All these depictions of Charlemagne being from after he's dead is just more and more evidence for the phantom time hypothesis.  Although I don't suppose that the Germanic peoples who went out and took over most of Europe had the desire for statuary that the old Romans and Greeks did. SlothfulCobra fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 06:42
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Isn't this mostly just because the greeks/Romans were into statues and later Europeans weren't to the same extent? Like, we have a poo poo load of Roman statues and busts, but if they painted anything on canvass, paper etc it's lost. The art might just be of a style that dissappears easily.
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Jul 17, 2017 09:32
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SlothfulCobra posted:All these depictions of Charlemagne being from after he's dead is just more and more evidence for the phantom time hypothesis. The best conspiracy theory. 
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Jul 17, 2017 10:43
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nothing to seehere posted:Isn't this mostly just because the greeks/Romans were into statues and later Europeans weren't to the same extent? Like, we have a poo poo load of Roman statues and busts, but if they painted anything on canvass, paper etc it's lost. The art might just be of a style that dissappears easily. disinterested, thank you, here come dat gothic revivalism
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Jul 17, 2017 12:15
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The Greeks and Romans also had plenty of famous painters, but we don't have any of their works. Sadly.
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Jul 17, 2017 12:45
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Painting was in many ways the top art among the Romans, we just don't associate it with them because so few paintings survive relative to the sculpture. You've noticed how so many sculptures are copies? It was a very commercial art. One of my professors claimed it's as if people in 2000 years thought the main art form of our age was the generic painting prints in motel rooms. Not sure I'd go that far, but it is true a lot of surviving classical sculpture is made up of copies churned out of workshops purely for commercial sale.
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Jul 17, 2017 12:52
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Grand Fromage posted:Painting was in many ways the top art among the Romans, we just don't associate it with them because so few paintings survive relative to the sculpture. You've noticed how so many sculptures are copies? It was a very commercial art. One of my professors claimed it's as if people in 2000 years thought the main art form of our age was the generic painting prints in motel rooms. Not sure I'd go that far, but it is true a lot of surviving classical sculpture is made up of copies churned out of workshops purely for commercial sale.
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Jul 17, 2017 13:10
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Doctor Malaver posted:I'm not sure I follow this argument. We have countless busts of Roman and Greek emperors, politicians, philosophers, etc. We don't have anything similar for e.g. Charlemagne or William the Conqueror. It's much more likely that they never commissioned such sculptures of themselves than that they did but they all got destroyed. William the Conqueror is (famously) depicted on the Bayeux Tapestry. Not a sculpture but it is a contemporary depiction. (And give it a couple of hundred years and basically everyone important has a tomb topped with a statue of themselves)
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Jul 17, 2017 13:20
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