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Who's Shad?
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Jul 17, 2017 06:01
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I graduated from Harvard with a degree in Armchair YouTube Psychology and Religious Studies and I think
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Jul 17, 2017 06:07
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Kunster posted:Nah, it was deleted beforehand but there was totally a period where Todd constantly was brought up to defend Cloud Atlas's YellowFace and also "This movie can't possibly be criticized on cultural appropriation backgrounds because a transwoman wrote it". Even if so people can make mistakes, learn, grow, and change so who cares with the majority of what she's done has generally been pretty drat spot on in these types of messages. marathon Stairmaster sesh posted:Night Mind talks about Jordan Underneath's transition from Indie horror game reviewer to master surreal puppeteer. Also this owns. Haven't heard of Jordan Underneath before this but these surreal, funny, eldrich horror puppet shows are really loving cool and well done.
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Jul 17, 2017 06:13
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FoldableHuman posted:Who's Shad? The guy who draws hosed up cartoon porn?
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Jul 17, 2017 06:39
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Big Coffin Hunter posted:Even if so people can make mistakes, learn, grow, and change so who cares with the majority of what she's done has generally been pretty drat spot on in these types of messages. Someone was asking about it, so it felt necessary to highlight that to show how much she has grown re: that stuff.
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Jul 17, 2017 08:12
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Why are we taking Kunster's word for it? Those kinds of actions don't really match up with anything she's done. She wasn't passionate enough about the movie to make a video about it, or a vlog, or anything but a few tweets. And the idea that Lindsay Ellis would use another possibly-Asian American as a racial sensitivity shield or appeal to the creator's gender identity/status as a defense just seems way out there in left field. Show me the receipts? Looking back to Moana, on rewatch there is zero drat reason for that coconut/happy villagers song, and I was a little uncomfortable at the way the movie used the hula dance completely devoid of context. Like, Musker and Clements went "hey, this is something Joe and Jane Everyman would recognize!" I thought Maui's haka of defiance at Te ka was pretty neat.
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Jul 17, 2017 13:43
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Alright, here's "receipts". https://twitter.com/thelindsayellis/status/270291571885363200 https://twitter.com/thelindsayellis/status/270288804441649152 https://twitter.com/thelindsayellis/status/270290979418947584 I honestly thought she had those deleted but hey, this at least shows how much the stance grew from 2012. And before y'all start telling me off, I was both asked for these + showcasing these as a showcase of progress. Kunster fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 13:51
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I think she did do like a vlog where she said it was lovely and made fun of future Tom Hanks. I could be thinking of someone else, as a lot of people did that. EDIT: I guess that was someone else.
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Jul 17, 2017 13:55
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That was a good video, but I think 'appropriation' has a pretty negative connotation, even on its own, though the term 'cultural appropriation' has one as well. Also, I I thought her definition of culture was way too commoditized, but that is a trap a lot of people seem to fall into.
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Jul 17, 2017 13:55
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Kunster posted:Alright, here's "receipts". Thank you. Being an Asian American, I thought that the, for lack of a better term, "yellowface" applied to the non-Asian actors to be bad, from a quality standpoint. Those prosthetics looked horrifying. But I don't have terribly strong feelings about Cloud Atlas.
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Jul 17, 2017 14:04
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And that's fine! I just found the weird defense of it to be kinda messy, that's all.
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Jul 17, 2017 14:06
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I mean isn't CLOUD ATLAS kind of a weird one to pick, given that the whole point of it is the repetition of these same people? I'm not saying it's immune from criticism, but I don't really agree with some of the criticism levelled against it either. It's a dicey subject, but at least that movie was doing it for a purpose (albeit not always successfully).
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Jul 17, 2017 14:23
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DrVenkman posted:I mean isn't CLOUD ATLAS kind of a weird one to pick, given that the whole point of it is the repetition of these same people? I don't think having the same actors in different make-up was really necessary to make the point of cycles and repetition of conflict. The fact that one incarnation would be asian while another would not be demonstrates pretty clearly that they do not have to look and sound the same.
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Jul 17, 2017 14:34
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Augus posted:I don't think having the same actors in different make-up was really necessary to make the point of cycles and repetition of conflict. The fact that one incarnation would be asian while another would not be demonstrates pretty clearly that they do not have to look and sound the same. Yeah, but when you're adapting into a movie for the general public, it's usually a good idea to keep things as clear as possible for the sake of those moviegoers who are slow on the uptake. Cloud Atlas is a really, really weird situation.
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Jul 17, 2017 15:07
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Well only one of the characters was supposed to actually be re-incarnated in the book. In the movie they decided that every soul that main-soul interacted with also respawned into a life directly connected with that main-soul (with that soul as the main character each time) which kinda makes the whole thing a bit more silly imo.
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Jul 17, 2017 16:30
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I was only curious whether her position on CL evolved since its release. I didn't mean to start a full re-litigation of the use of yellowface in that movie. My issue was not the technical incompetence of the makeup; though it didn't help. I was, and perhaps still am, really annoyed at the condescending tone white liberals defending the movie took, which I guess included Lindsey, which was enough to turn me off to her for a few years since I had no obligation to follow these personalities to begin with. Like, when white people who are typically sympathetic to the "SJW" crowd are suddenly are triggered into mocking them when those SJWs are Asian. (See also: Kimmy Schmidt.) And people gave the creators a ridiculous benefit of the doubt here. "If we're going to make a Cloud Atlas movie, we'll have to do X. If we do X, then it makes sense to do Y. If we do Y, then it makes sense to do Z. And if we do Z, of course it'll have yellowface on Jim Sturgess." As if the logic that lead us to yellowface wasn't esoteric or contrived. Like, people wouldn't admit they used yellowface (and whiteface and brownface and everyotherface) because they wanted to do it, but because they had to. As if white people in dreadlocks were required by law to adapt the book and to adapt it that very specific way.
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Jul 17, 2017 17:41
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Echo Chamber posted:triggered please don't
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Jul 17, 2017 17:57
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The Vosgian Beast posted:please don't 'Come at me social justice warriors' - A-Ok to say to people upset at yellowface. 'White people who claim to be sympathetic to social justice are suddenly triggered by it when it's asians who are upset and not white people' - Too far. Am I reading this right? I mean I might have confused myself by reading the whole post and not just the one word you quoted. (I love Lindsay, but it's one bad tweet/opinion you don't need to go over-the top trying to shut down anyone maybe talking about the cloud atlas race thing and how different people reacted)
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Jul 17, 2017 18:36
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cosmically_cosmic posted:'Come at me social justice warriors' - A-Ok to say to people upset at yellowface. I would just kinda prefer we not "ironically" appropriate the word triggered because even if you're using it to refer to lovely people being angry, you're still kinda insulting people with PTSD Which is probably why I highlighted the word and not the rest of the post
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Jul 17, 2017 18:57
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Cloud Atlas falls into a weird space because it's a film trying to use a theatre technique where a small cast plays all the characters. The prosthetics themselves are not so much "bad" as they are stylized, though an argument could be made that stylizing prosthetics intended to make Hugo Weaving look Korean/generically-post-racial-kinda-Asian is de facto bad. For all the intent in the world there's history to white actors playing Asians and even a clear thematic conceit doesn't negate that, nor is it "balanced out" by Bae Doona's horrifying Irish prosthetic. It's probably a case where doing nothing, just plunking Hugo Weaving down, would have been less intrusive and worked better as a theatrical device. I still think Cloud Atlas is brilliant, though.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:13
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Gotta agree with Vosgian: it's one of those words that has been turned into several different buzzwords and no longer has a useful meaning, in addition to making it super easy to misinterpret someone's meaning due to the different cultures using it. It's not too difficult to phrase things without tossing in a the verbal equivalent of Eris's apple. ETA: FoldableHuman posted:It's probably a case where doing nothing, just plunking Hugo Weaving down, would have been less intrusive and worked better as a theatrical device. That would actually be pretty cool, although again probably too much for a fair chunk of the audience. quote:I still think Cloud Atlas is brilliant, though. Yeah it's kind of sad that these discussions to often end up as (to take Lindsay's phrasing) "Thing Bad" or "Thing Good," instead of "It's really great at this stuff, but boy is there a huge problem over in this area!" But then people in general seem to have a huge problem with nuance. The world needs better critical thinking education. Puppy Time fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 19:15
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The Vosgian Beast posted:I would just kinda prefer we not "ironically" appropriate the word triggered because even if you're using it to refer to lovely people being angry, you're still kinda insulting people with PTSD Yeah that's fair, I understand the point on using the word triggered. I mistakenly assumed you were just trying to use a 'gotcha' moment to write off that entire posts point. I do think it is unfair for one person to claim that they are A Social Justice Warrior, who isnt afraid to say when something is offensive and won't be talked down by being mocked for their concern, but then they mock others for being offended by yellowface by calling them social justice warriors. (Again just to say, that was a p out of char moment for Lindsay so this isn't really about her, but more the general debate around Cloud Atlas and whether it's message/trans director trumps its 'problematic' elements. Since this did pop up a lot when Could Atlas had just come out, especially re: trans director making it impossible to be offensive) cosmically_cosmic fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 19:30
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The Vosgian Beast posted:I would just kinda prefer we not "ironically" appropriate the word triggered because even if you're using it to refer to lovely people being angry, you're still kinda insulting people with PTSD My man "triggered" has already been co-opted by trolls long ago
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Jul 17, 2017 19:35
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The REAL Goobusters posted:My man "triggered" has already been co-opted by trolls long ago Yeah, because of that it was the go-to "hilarious joke" for the 7th/8th grade kids at work this year, and probably last year, too.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:38
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I do think that using the Wachowski's being Trans as a sort of defence is a weird use of logic, as though it implies that anyone who is Trans, or a Minority, can't possibly be wrong or insensitive to how what they've made will be received. As it though, I think CLOUD ATLAS itself is a weird target, despite my thoughts about the movie, as what it's doing is clearly a device to serve a theme. It isn't like we're talking about like say PRINCE OF PERSIA or something, or EXODUS.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:38
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TheMaestroso posted:Yeah, because of that it was the go-to "hilarious joke" for the 7th/8th grade kids at work this year, and probably last year, too. Its been in the public lexicon now and lost its original meaning. You really can't get mad at someone saying triggered because they usually don't even mean it with any bad intentions. Honestly who cares
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Jul 17, 2017 19:42
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Honestly who cares I'm pretty sure you actually know the answer to this.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:45
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I understand what Lindsey meant by saying things shouldn't be considered either a "good thing" or a "bad thing". But I'm often okay with saying a bad thing is bad. Cloud Atlas is "bad enough" to be bad in my book. It's part of the yellowface canon. Like I've seen the theme of the transience of identity used to justify the whitewashing in Ghost in the Shell, and I think it's a lazy new age 90s defense. I'm not trying to single out Lindsey for this. I'm more of a fan of her now than a few years ago. Her essay on Pocahontas was alright, even though I think she played up the "Disney is making some progress point a bit further than I would have.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:47
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Puppy Time posted:
See also Lindsay's video on Orson Scott Card and enders game. Though Card is irredeemable and you pretty much have to invoke death of the author or formalism to avoid his political beliefs spoiling your reading of the books.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:02
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Arcsquad12 posted:See also Lindsay's video on Orson Scott Card and enders game. Though Card is irredeemable and you pretty much have to invoke death of the author or formalism to avoid his political beliefs spoiling your reading of the books. Enders game was very homo-erotic to me, and I read it without knowing anything about Card and I was like, an uncomfortable tween at the time. But I remember feeling smart and mature, because in this mature book icky gay things that would have a 'no-homo' tag in other kind of things I read were just done and accepted. And I remember thinking thats pretty bold for a childrens book. Then years later I found out he was super anti-gay and thought Enders game was a book for grown ups. (I picked it up thinking it looked like a cooler, sci fi version of harry potter)
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Jul 17, 2017 20:05
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Something Oancitizen mentioned in his review of the film was that the future Korean setting was actually supposed to be one of the last habitable places on Earth, meaning a lot of the people living there would have been immigrants or their descendants. It would have been easy for the filmmakers to just make the excuse that these particular characters had foreign ancestry and not bother with the makeup.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:05
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Echo Chamber posted:I understand what Lindsey meant by saying things shouldn't be considered either a "good thing" or a "bad thing". But does that make the entire thing Bad, or just "a Thing that has some bad stuff in it"? Is it so bad that we have to dismiss whatever good aspects it has, all because of a problematic choice? Can we not just say, "Well, that sure was a terrible choice," while also acknowledging that there was some value elsewhere? It's impossible to make something that's 100% free of problems, after all, so dividing things into "Good" or "Bad" based on ideological purity is setting everything up for failure.
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Jul 17, 2017 21:23
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Its been in the public lexicon now and lost its original meaning. You really can't get mad at someone saying triggered because they usually don't even mean it with any bad intentions. This is a pretty bad argument because you can plain as day see the exact framework of someone saying this, except with fag or retard or whatever else. "They don't mean human being like gay maaan, it's just a generic insult now!" never made me feel much better about hearing it a hundred times a day.
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Jul 17, 2017 21:33
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Puppy Time posted:But does that make the entire thing Bad, or just "a Thing that has some bad stuff in it"? Is it so bad that we have to dismiss whatever good aspects it has, all because of a problematic choice? That's why I put the words "enough" after good and bad. Like, I'll give the benefit of the doubt for things that are plausibly accidentally "problematic" (another word the internet has killed). But yellow face on the dude from 21 wasn't an accident that the Wachowskis walked into.
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Jul 17, 2017 21:48
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Yardbomb posted:This is a pretty bad argument because you can plain as day see the exact framework of someone saying this, except with fag or retard or whatever else. I'm just telling you the realities of the situation
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Jul 17, 2017 22:27
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You tell those people they're full of poo poo anyway and their excuses are poor.
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Jul 17, 2017 22:36
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Echo Chamber posted:The benefit of the doubt is a limited resource to hand out to all commercial entertainment, not unlike time and money. I've seen a lot of people spend their time and energy arguing why the complaints against the one movie doesn't matter that much. I am not asking for the benefit of the doubt, I'm simply asking that people stop behaving like flaws or ideologically problematic elements render an entire work worthless. You don't have to like it, or think that the choices a creator made are OK, or even see a thing if you don't want to spend the time and money. Just, y'know, accept that there might be other things, apart from the problems, that might be worth looking at as good examples of something, instead of throwing out the entire thing.
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Jul 17, 2017 22:48
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Steam Needs To Axe Shithead Developers (The Jimquisition) One thing I disagreed with Jim about is that Steam should not be selling Shovel-ware. No one yells at Gamestop for carrying bad games, or Wal-Mart for carrying lovely movies. Quality control over a game is not really Steam's job beyond "does the game run" and "There's no malicious code that will harm a system" or "Does the game contain straight up hate speech" If Steam wan't to open their platform up to Indy Developers, then the shovel-ware and amateur hour stuff is the price of that and we need to accept that. He is on the right track however by saying that Steam needs to do something about the people who are clearly crazy or are trying to silence negative criticism or are just being a all around poo poo head. But that is a problem that exists across a lot of social platforms. poo poo heads running wild and the owners not wanting to pay the people needed to actually moderate these places in a meaningful way
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Jul 17, 2017 23:04
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Eh, digital storefronts are a bit different than retail. Nobody can waltz up to a walmart and get them to stock copies of bootlegs or whatever the way asset flips and poo poo have been able to get on steam.
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Jul 17, 2017 23:09
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Some star wars for y'all
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Jul 17, 2017 23:55
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