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Puppy Time posted:I am not asking for the benefit of the doubt, I'm simply asking that people stop behaving like flaws or ideologically problematic elements render an entire work worthless. You don't have to like it, or think that the choices a creator made are OK, or even see a thing if you don't want to spend the time and money. Just, y'know, accept that there might be other things, apart from the problems, that might be worth looking at as good examples of something, instead of throwing out the entire thing. Kyle's great video on Cloud Atlas Makes this point. Cloud Atlas is at it's worst, at least a 'genuine' film. It's foibles are genuine, as opposed to a cynically made product that's ignorance is baked into it. Did anyone ever re-edit the movie into it's original structure? Or is that basically impossible due to how it was made? I just had a thought as well. I think I mentioned earlier that I thought that they should have just made the main soul be re-incarnated. But then I realised that there would still be someone in yellow-face, but then I thought 'But if they stayed white and everyone else was asian, that would imply that the soul was linked to race'. So really, it's just possibly the MOST nightmarish problem with adapting something in a novel to live action. Really now that I think about it, they should have just Animated it. But then they lose the effect of the same actor. Unless they kept the same voice actor, but then is it offensive to have that voice actor play an Asian? I need to lie down... cosmically_cosmic fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jul 18, 2017 |
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Jul 18, 2017 00:12
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FoldableHuman posted:Who's Shad? He's a dude who makes a lot of really popular videos about swords and stuff. In the same sort of loose circles as Lindybeige/Skallagrim/Metatron/etc. Most of his videos are pretty benign poo poo about stuff like what weapons he thinks a centaur would use if it was a real creature or whatever. Also people might think I'm joking about the secret handshake poo poo, but that's a real thing. There's supposedly questions that you're asked by god when you go up to heaven and in order to pass through the different gates you have to know the answers to secret questions/riddles and know how to do the secret handshakes. We end up with a lot of ex-Mormons in my religion and there's a lot of weird poo poo like that where they use a lot of sunk cost fallacy poo poo to get you to buy into dressing up like an old timey cosplay pilgrim and doing the super top secret stuff that is done in the back room where only specific people are allowed.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:44
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cosmically_cosmic posted:Kyle's great video on Cloud Atlas Makes this point. Cloud Atlas is at it's worst, at least a 'genuine' film. It's foibles are genuine, as opposed to a cynically made product that's ignorance is baked into it. In working on various creative projects, I have come to the conclusion that it's just completely impossible to make any work that doesn't end up in some problematic territory, because human existence is a big tangle of often mutually contradicting issues. So at some point you gotta just accept that it's impossible to avoid things, try to focus on minimizing what damage you do, and be ready to take criticism, because that's what being a creator is about. It seems to me a lot of people end up taking the wrong lesson from this, and just going, "Well, gently caress it, I just won't try!" and/or "gently caress you for getting upset!" And, as Lindsay points out in her video, it's because people want the One True Way to avoid hurt feelings, when life and human interaction are infinitely messier than that.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:58
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Puppy Time posted:It seems to me a lot of people end up taking the wrong lesson from this, and just going, "Well, gently caress it, I just won't try!" and/or "gently caress you for getting upset!" And, as Lindsay points out in her video, it's because people want the One True Way to avoid hurt feelings, when life and human interaction are infinitely messier than that. Yes, the neutrality of the term 'cultural appropriation' is a good highlight of that. I'm just really glad that young teen me was like 'ugh nostalgia CHICK? Well I've seen all Nostalgia critics videos I may as well watch this even if it's just gonna be a lame girly copycat' Because now older me has the benefit of being exposed to better critics and more importantly, critics that grow and encourage their audience to do the same :V
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Jul 18, 2017 01:04
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BigRed0427 posted:No one yells at Gamestop for carrying bad games, or Wal-Mart for carrying lovely movies. If the Steam storefront was a Wal Mart, the movie aisle would be full of bootlegs someone burned in their basement, the soda aisle would have bottles of rat poison being sold as Cola, and half the chips would just be empty bags because anybody can put anything they want up on the shelves. It goes far beyond shovelware or differences in taste. Latter day Greenlight was full of releases that flat out didn't work, were shipped with missing executables, or were just flagrant copyright violations like people trying to put their private WoW servers up for Steam distribution, and that's not even getting into the behavior of the people who uploaded that poo poo. And that's also not even getting into the Early Access pipeline of uploading the first playable build of your survival/crafting FPS, promise big features, and then duck out the back door with all the cash once sales start to flag.
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Jul 18, 2017 01:13
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It's almost sad that greenlight was pretty good when it initially started, it helped a lot of cool smaller games get on steam, but then as the filter of the system quickly disintegrated, more and more hacks saw their opening to shove through copycats and low effort "zany irony joke games" and it all came rocketing down from there.
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Jul 18, 2017 02:06
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Yeah, Greenlight was a great idea in theory. But once again for the world to hear "The Internet Makes You Stupid" Edit: Don't forget the straight up russian 4chan stuff.
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Jul 18, 2017 02:09
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Yardbomb posted:It's almost sad that greenlight was pretty good when it initially started, it helped a lot of cool smaller games get on steam, but then as the filter of the system quickly disintegrated, more and more hacks saw their opening to shove through copycats and low effort "zany irony joke games" and it all came rocketing down from there. Was it actually that good though? I recall a number of quality games wasting away on Greenlight because they never got the big swell of votes to get them over the threshold. And the need for those votes is what created the entire garbage economy of devs spamming free keys to bribe people to vote their trash game onto Steam. I mean I guess relatively speaking it was still better than the old system of a random Valve employee taking a five second glance at a game and arbitrarily deciding if it belonged on Steam or not. (If they didn't just push their friends' games straight onto the service.  )
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Jul 18, 2017 02:38
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is jim sterling going to wear crab claw hands for every show from now on
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Jul 18, 2017 05:19
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El Estrago Bonito posted:He's a dude who makes a lot of really popular videos about swords and stuff. In the same sort of loose circles as Lindybeige/Skallagrim/Metatron/etc. Most of his videos are pretty benign poo poo about stuff like what weapons he thinks a centaur would use if it was a real creature or whatever. From an anthropological stance Mormon temple rites are more complicated than that, but religious rituals are almost always something highly symbolic that looks really weird when stripped of their meanings. I guess it comes down to whether or not you think (or care) if people are engaging in the rituals authentically, or if you're of the mind that it's all an overt control system. cosmically_cosmic posted:Did anyone ever re-edit the movie into it's original structure? Or is that basically impossible due to how it was made? I've seen a few short (10-15 minute) re-edits that basically just suggest the idea of how it would look in book order for people already familiar with one or the other, but off the top of my head I don't know if anyone's done a full re-edit. My opinion would be that it'd actually be one of the easier re-edits to do simply because Cloud Atlas has so much... I don't want to say "padding" because of connotations, but there's a lot of material to cut around. You'd definitely end up w/ a few squidgy cuts, especially on the soundtrack, but that's just the nature of re-edits anyway.
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Jul 18, 2017 05:54
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cosmically_cosmic posted:Really now that I think about it, they should have just Animated it. But then they lose the effect of the same actor. Unless they kept the same voice actor, but then is it offensive to have that voice actor play an Asian? I need to lie down... There's your answer. I think we could hatch a hundred other ways they could have made the movie that could have been better than what they actually did.
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Jul 18, 2017 07:54
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I havent seen Cloud Atlas, but I have a hard time beliving people would be arguing against a black person that blackface in a movie should be something they should be less angery about.
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Jul 18, 2017 13:37
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I don't buy the "Laci Green is an MRA now because she's an ex-mormon" thing. A LOT of religions have gender essentialist or patriarchal baggage, but people who leave those religions are still capable of rejecting those ideals, not to mention that people WITHIN those religions are capable of re-interpreting their beliefs to get rid of such things. Going "well Laci grew up in the Mormon church, so obviously she would never let go of the gender essentialist baggage you'd get from a literalist reading" is silly because you could probably condemn any other Abrahamic religion using the same standards, but someone probably wouldn't go "Well Jenny Fakename grew up Protestant, and it's Christian doctrine that original sin is the fault of the first woman, so obviously she'd have internalized sexism she would never get rid of". It honestly reminds me of the way people talk about ex-Muslims, where they end up Othering the hell out of them and their religion and not treating them as human beings as capable of understanding the society they grew up with, engaging with it, and deciding for themselves which aspects are or are not positive as any other human being. There's plenty of Mormons who aren't fundamentalist loonies, and plenty of ex-Mormons who aren't MRAs. The one devout Mormon I know identifies as non-binary and is perfectly fine with addressing people by their preferred pronouns. Please don't Other a historically persecuted religious minority in search of an explanation for why one particular person adopted MRA beliefs.
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Jul 18, 2017 15:00
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The Vosgian Beast posted:I don't buy the "Laci Green is an MRA now because she's an ex-mormon" thing. A LOT of religions have gender essentialist or patriarchal baggage, but people who leave those religions are still capable of rejecting those ideals, not to mention that people WITHIN those religions are capable of re-interpreting their beliefs to get rid of such things. Going "well Laci grew up in the Mormon church, so obviously she would never let go of the gender essentialist baggage you'd get from a literalist reading" is silly because you could probably condemn any other Abrahamic religion using the same standards, but someone probably wouldn't go "Well Jenny Fakename grew up Protestant, and it's Christian doctrine that original sin is the fault of the first woman, so obviously she'd have internalized sexism she would never get rid of". It honestly reminds me of the way people talk about ex-Muslims, where they end up Othering the hell out of them and their religion and not treating them as human beings as capable of understanding the society they grew up with, engaging with it, and deciding for themselves which aspects are or are not positive as any other human being. I feel like it's a bit weird to compare a religion that is growing in power and doesn't have any current legal oppression going on to Muslims. It's also kinda disingenuous to act as though Mormonism isn't one of the most strictly traditional in terms of gender roles and norms. Like, yeah, you CAN be a Mormon or ex-Mormon and not be a shithead, but given the cultural milieu found with many Mormon churches (as well as similar Protestant churches in the US) it's reasonably fair to expect someone who grew up in that setting to have internalized a lot of particular attitudes surrounding gender that they probably haven't had inclination to examine. See also: ex-fundamentalist atheist shitheads and the junk they're doing. It's not a statement of "Oh, all Mormons will turn out like this," because of course it wouldn't be, that's loving idiotic. But I don't think it's unfair or "Othering" to say that growing up in a Mormon community is probably going to lead to ideas of gender and sex that don't really match up with what we understand as reality now, and that if the person doesn't have a personal reason to question those ideas (like actualy being nonbinary) they probably will just accept them as reality, since having to question every single inculcated assumption of reality is exhausting and difficult.
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Jul 18, 2017 15:56
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Puppy Time posted:I feel like it's a bit weird to compare a religion that is growing in power and doesn't have any current legal oppression going on to Muslims. That's a bit like saying Jews don't deserve sympathy because they're pretty comfortably well-integrated into American society. Current privilege does not erase prejudice or make unfair double standards any less unfair Puppy Time posted:It's not a statement of "Oh, all Mormons will turn out like this," because of course it wouldn't be, that's loving idiotic. But I don't think it's unfair or "Othering" to say that growing up in a Mormon community is probably going to lead to ideas of gender and sex that don't really match up with what we understand as reality now, and that if the person doesn't have a personal reason to question those ideas (like actualy being nonbinary) they probably will just accept them as reality, since having to question every single inculcated assumption of reality is exhausting and difficult. Being employed as a sex educator and activist is a pretty good reason to look into such things, I feel.
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Jul 18, 2017 16:08
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Puppy Time posted:I feel like it's a bit weird to compare a religion that is growing in power and doesn't have any current legal oppression going on to Muslims. Mormons actually have a pretty high rate of attrition on account of having so much dumb and restrictive poo poo in their religion. Pretty much every young person who can bolts right after college. I myself seduced a young lds girl into drinking a coffee after class once. A hot coffee.
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Jul 18, 2017 16:24
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:I havent seen Cloud Atlas, but I have a hard time beliving people would be arguing against a black person that blackface in a movie should be something they should be less angery about. You see anything less than literal slavery just doesn't contain enough history of oppression.
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Jul 18, 2017 17:15
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Actually, we arr all oppressed by capitalism. Some are just more than others.
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Jul 18, 2017 19:31
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Guess who simultaneously has strong opinions about the women's march twitter shouting out Assats Shakur's birthday but zero interest in learning who she actually is or any details about her case?
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Jul 19, 2017 02:39
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I didn't even know who Laci Green was before her fall into alt-right lunacy, but from what I have seen of her, she seems like just a really lovely person period.
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Jul 19, 2017 02:51
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nine-gear crow posted:I didn't even know who Laci Green was before her fall into alt-right lunacy, but from what I have seen of her, she seems like just a really lovely person period. the sad thing is she used to be a solid, if a bit ignorant at times, sex ed person for the masses.
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Jul 19, 2017 02:52
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I heard about her because Mara Wilson appeared in one of her videos, but I never really watched her stuff.
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Jul 19, 2017 02:54
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"Wrongful convictions in america do not exiiiisssttttt" - A rational person
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Jul 19, 2017 02:56
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The Vosgian Beast posted:That's a bit like saying Jews don't deserve sympathy because they're pretty comfortably well-integrated into American society. Current privilege does not erase prejudice or make unfair double standards any less unfair I didn't say they deserve no sympathy, I said it's weird to compare them to a group that is currently experiencing active oppression from the highest levels of power in the US. One level of oppression is substantially higher right now, and pretending like that doesn't make a difference is sticking your head in the sand.
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Jul 19, 2017 02:57
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Yardbomb posted:"Wrongful convictions in america do not exiiiisssttttt" - A rational person the us government is famous for never lying or doing anything shady to convict black radicals, and if you disagree you're stupid and basically love murder.
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Jul 19, 2017 03:08
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Puppy Time posted:I didn't say they deserve no sympathy, I said it's weird to compare them to a group that is currently experiencing active oppression from the highest levels of power in the US. Oh it definitely does. I just think the process of othering is the same. One group being othered is in WAY more trouble so obviously that takes priority, but it doesn't become good just because a group isn't in a huge amount of trouble.
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Jul 19, 2017 05:12
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Did a queer reading of one of the better Goosebumps books. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9FCSh1VcmU
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Jul 19, 2017 06:54
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CinemaSins did a video about Ghostbusters. Top comments are the usual circlejerking. Hooray for the shitstorm.
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Jul 19, 2017 19:30
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somekindofguy posted:CinemaSins did a video about Ghostbusters. Top comments are the usual circlejerking. Hooray for the shitstorm. I know we stretch the meaning of "critic" pretty far in this thread, but do we need to stretch it that far?
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Jul 19, 2017 22:00
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FoldableHuman posted:I know we stretch the meaning of "critic" pretty far in this thread, but do we need to stretch it that far? It's been kinda gauche to post Cinema Sins videos ITT for a couple years now, really. About as long, if not longer than it has been to post anything Doug's done lately unironically.
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Jul 19, 2017 22:08
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It serves a valuable role in the ecosystem. If CS wasn't around, internet critics would lose a major excuse to not do better or be better, because they wouldn't be able to compare themselves to Cinema Sins to feel good about themselves.
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Jul 20, 2017 01:45
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nine-gear crow posted:It's been kinda gauche to post Cinema Sins videos ITT for a couple years now, really. About as long, if not longer than it has been to post anything Doug's done lately unironically. Speaking of Doug, what has he been up to lately  Hmm..
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Jul 20, 2017 05:21
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Well now I have to watch it.
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Jul 20, 2017 05:29
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Puppy Time posted:I feel like it's a bit weird to compare a religion that is growing in power and doesn't have any current legal oppression going on to Muslims. It's a pretty pariochial worldview to say that Islam is growing in power given that the United States is one of a minority of countries where Islam is receiving some negative backlash. You say that LDS don't have any current legal oppression, but that's a pretty limited view. Russia recently passed a law limiting non-Orthodox evangelism inside of Russia. Would that not count as legal oppression? There are some radical LDSers who might even view current governmental laws on one-partner marriage as an ongoing repression of their religious traditions and values.
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Jul 20, 2017 12:49
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CountFosco posted:It's a pretty pariochial worldview to say that Islam is growing in power given that the United States is one of a minority of countries where Islam is receiving some negative backlash. You say that LDS don't have any current legal oppression, but that's a pretty limited view. Russia recently passed a law limiting non-Orthodox evangelism inside of Russia. Would that not count as legal oppression? There are some radical LDSers who might even view current governmental laws on one-partner marriage as an ongoing repression of their religious traditions and values. OK given that we are discussing a person in the US, in a US-based forum, I figured it was taken as a given that we were also assuming the scope of the discussion was also limited to US politics. Like yeah Russia sucks but I don't think that's germane to the discussion we were having, which was around the propriety of citing Green's upbringing as a reason for her lovely beliefs, and whether comparing Mormons to Muslims in modern times (again, with an assumption of the setting being US, or at least Western) is appropriate. nine-gear crow posted:It's been kinda gauche to post Cinema Sins videos ITT for a couple years now, really. About as long, if not longer than it has been to post anything Doug's done lately unironically. Would it be appropriate to post Shaun's series criticizing CinemaSins?
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Jul 20, 2017 14:51
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FodableHumans latest video was pretty great and the accompanying twitter discussion was pretty interesting as well. Ludonarrative Dissonance is kind of a terrible name, because it sounds like academic technobabble, but as a concept it is absolutely fascinating. I always considered it unique to games, since those allow the audience to actively participate, but Dan makes a great argument for its presence in film as well. And I even started thinking about how you could apply it to other media as well, i.e. books. One example that sprang to my mind, because it utterly destroyed my ability to enjoy the series, was Jim Butcher's Dresden Files, because I feel there is a huge discrepancy between the genre it presented as and the actual way it is written. Maybe that doesn't fit 100%, but for me it was a great way to give a name to something that bugged me for years. fake edit: I also agree that the genocide route isn't an example of Ludonarrative Dissonance. Free will and choice is very important in Undertale and rejection of something is part of that. read edit: I just thought of another great example for dissonance in movies, Man of Steel. e X fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 14:55
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Leal posted:Speaking of Doug, what has he been up to lately HULK is the best. 
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Jul 20, 2017 19:12
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SleepCousinDeath posted:HULK is the best. I can stare at this loving edit for minutes and still be confused by it
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Jul 20, 2017 21:51
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SleepCousinDeath posted:HULK is the best. Quality issues in other areas aside, Ang Lee's HULK is just a fun movie to watch simply because Lee went "I'm directing a comic book movie. I should make it look like a comic book!" So it's got all these quirky comic book transitions like that one, or scene transitions that move from one panel to the next that are just so over the top and jarring that they're almost endearing. HULK was kind of the last gasp of the 80s/90s-era tone-deaf Schumacher-style comic book movie before the MCU came along and set the gold standard. And then Logan set the platinum standard, but I digress.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:12
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No it's a legit masterpiece and I wont hear it any other way.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:18
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