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Pollyanna posted:Cyber security could vary from industry leaders being contracted out to save said fintech, to installing antivirus on people's computers. I do SWEng, not IT, so nothx. It can also mean writing antivirus software you know (eg my former employer Sophos)
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Jul 17, 2017 18:24
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Jaded Burnout posted:The fact that I was drinking a G&T in the first place should tell you a lot about my drinking or lack thereof. To be fair to them this was a company outing to celebrate a new funding round and not a common occurrence. When I started at my current company, my boss was a Belgian guy. I started in December so my first holiday party was a few weeks later. At dinner, when I turned down a third drink because I didn't want to get too drunk, he said "I wouldn't have hired you if I knew you were such a wimp." We then proceeded to get sloppy drunk and have a great time.
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Jul 17, 2017 18:37
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:When I started at my current company, my boss was a Belgian guy. I started in December so my first holiday party was a few weeks later. At dinner, when I turned down a third drink because I didn't want to get too drunk, he said "I wouldn't have hired you if I knew you were such a wimp." We then proceeded to get sloppy drunk and have a great time. I'm just gonna point out here that there are people for whom this would be an incredibly stressful situation, e.g. because they're recovering alcoholics, or on psyche drugs that interact badly with alcohol, or just because they find the prospect of being mentally affected to be scary. Just like you want to be aware of bias around gender, race, etc., you should try to be aware of this kind of thing too. Managers discriminating (consciously or unconsciously) against people that don't want to drink is a problem.
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Jul 17, 2017 18:44
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm just gonna point out here that there are people for whom this would be an incredibly stressful situation, e.g. because they're recovering alcoholics, or on psyche drugs that interact badly with alcohol, or just because they find the prospect of being mentally affected to be scary. Just like you want to be aware of bias around gender, race, etc., you should try to be aware of this kind of thing too. Managers discriminating (consciously or unconsciously) against people that don't want to drink is a problem. It's extremely a problem and I would have declined the job, tbh. That kind of culture is loving cancer.
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Jul 17, 2017 18:58
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm just gonna point out here that there are people for whom this would be an incredibly stressful situation, e.g. because they're recovering alcoholics, or on psyche drugs that interact badly with alcohol, or just because they find the prospect of being mentally affected to be scary. Just like you want to be aware of bias around gender, race, etc., you should try to be aware of this kind of thing too. Managers discriminating (consciously or unconsciously) against people that don't want to drink is a problem. Bias shmias. You can mind your own business and recovering drug addicts can work at a different business.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:14
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm just gonna point out here that there are people for whom this would be an incredibly stressful situation, e.g. because they're recovering alcoholics, or on psyche drugs that interact badly with alcohol, or just because they find the prospect of being mentally affected to be scary. Just like you want to be aware of bias around gender, race, etc., you should try to be aware of this kind of thing too. Managers discriminating (consciously or unconsciously) against people that don't want to drink is a problem. I made a bread/cake thing for the office with alcohol-free mincemeat (I'm #2 on your list) and marked it, among other things, "no alcohol". The programme manager (kinda a project manager for 150 people) said "Oh that's no fun!". I could only stare in silence because while she clearly meant it in jest I know genuine teetotal alcoholics in that office as well as people on SSRIs. Alcohol is such a strong part of British office culture (and everything else culture) that you might as well say that 1 in 4 people are deathly allergic to tea for all the sense it makes to them.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:28
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm just gonna point out here that there are people for whom this would be an incredibly stressful situation, e.g. because they're recovering alcoholics, or on psyche drugs that interact badly with alcohol, or just because they find the prospect of being mentally affected to be scary. But if I do forget I took some, one vs. two shots could literally be the difference between making me feel sick and killing me.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:28
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sarehu posted:Bias shmias. You can mind your own business and recovering drug addicts can work at a different business. Which ones, exactly? Is there a list?
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Jul 17, 2017 19:29
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sarehu posted:Bias shmias. You can mind your own business and recovering drug addicts can work at a different business. I'm going to assume you're trolling but alcoholism is covered under the ADA. IANAL but discriminating against an alcoholic for not drinking sounds like a good lawsuit waiting to happen.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:40
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Jaded Burnout posted:Which ones, exactly? Is there a list? Evaluate the business when you interview there. Sniff out the office culture. And if they want you to join a drinking contest when you're a recovering alcoholic... don't join it! It's not a problem if your coworkers are decent people. I'm exactly the sort of person that doesn't want an alcohol-ridden workplace, and avoiding places full of stupid drinking assholes hasn't been an issue for me. But I don't go demanding that everybody change their company to suit my preferences.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:44
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sarehu posted:Bias shmias. You can mind your own business and recovering drug addicts can work at a different business. You realize that arguments like this are exactly why we have "protected classes" that you are not allowed to discriminate against, right? Because everyone was discriminating against them, so they couldn't work for (or shop at, etc.) a different business.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:44
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sarehu posted:I'm exactly the sort of person that doesn't want an alcohol-ridden workplace, and avoiding places full of stupid drinking assholes hasn't been an issue for me. But I don't go demanding that everybody change their company to suit my preferences. Would it help if I mentioned this was a central government department and the people involved were civil servants? And they dealt with a unique thing that only existed in that one organisation in the entire country? I'm sure it's fine though, it's probably not worth trying to empathise with other people, they can take their second or third choice so I can continue to pretend that everyone's like me.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:55
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Jaded Burnout posted:Would it help if I mentioned this was a central government department and the people involved were civil servants? And they dealt with a unique thing that only existed in that one organisation in the entire country? No. It's not the world's obligation to organize itself to suit your preferences. And using empathy to calculate moral questions is a retarded idea. Use principles. Otherwise you'll just sit around bothering about aesthetics and not being concerned about people who you don't feel empathy towards.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:01
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Principles like inclusivity? Actually why am I bothering with this conversation.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:04
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I don't think not calling someone a wimp or whatever for not wanting a third drink is really bending over too far backwards for someone but hey, I'm the wimp who tries to avoid more than 2 drinks at company events in my old age of 29.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:09
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Calling someone names (anything, wimp or worse), in a business environment is a big no-no. Even if we go out and drink ourselves to death every friday night. When at work, act accordingly. Furthermore, usually at work people are coworkers, not always friends. Even if we get along great at the office, doesn't mean we could (or want to) spend time outside of that. There are lines that should never be crossed.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:32
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It was said in jest and taken as such. The conversation was a whole lot worse directly before and directly after. And I actually knew everyone at the table except him for years from a prior job, so there was no question as to whether I'd be offended. He's dead now anyway so it doesn't matter. [edit]I don't want to start a big drinking culture / workplace appropriate behavior derail. I would never say anything like that to an employee for exactly the reasons everyone is bringing up. New Yorp New Yorp fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 21:08
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:He's dead now anyway so it doesn't matter. Oldie programming: Career advice - he's dead now anyway so it doesn't matter.
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Jul 17, 2017 21:19
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ratbert90 posted:Oldie programming: Career advice - he's dead now anyway so it doesn't matter.
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Jul 17, 2017 22:06
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My advice when offered a drink is to apologize and state that it would hurt your gainz. Then offer them a slurry of protein powder.
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Jul 17, 2017 22:18
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Plorkyeran posted:It's not always quite so explicit, but every time I've had an interview include lunch they've definitely switched out of interview mode while we were eating. It's usually just a chance to get to know the people you'd be working with and to get a feel for what the culture is like. If you think you're not being evaluated, you're wrong.
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Jul 17, 2017 22:23
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You're being evaluated, but not necessarily interviewed.
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Jul 17, 2017 23:09
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This thread is making it awkward to walk by our keg stand areas at work.
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Jul 17, 2017 23:50
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Why not ask your recruiter since it is going to vary company to company?
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Jul 17, 2017 23:51
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fantastic in plastic posted:You're being evaluated, but not necessarily interviewed. You're always being evaluated. Your boss, your coworker, your friends, your spouse, your children, your brother, your sister, your parents, yourself. They know you. They see you. They see what you do every second of your waking day, eyes ever watching, you can not escape, you can not survive, d͖̦͞e̠͇̘̦̮ḥ̵u͟m̗̞̻̮̰̜̥a͓n͏i͏z̭̩̰͕͉̗̀e̱̦̳ ͈̦̹͈̲͈̠͠y͏͇̠͈͖o̜̘̠̟͙̺̱u̱̮r̻̞̩̻̦̩ͅșe͙̙͉̖̙̪̱l̴͍f̜͚̱̩ ͡a͕̺n̮͔͕͙̮͟ͅd̰̬̤̯ ̲̜̦̭̞͓̖f͕̝̻͈͍̲̟a͏̹̗̣̼͈̘ͅc̟e̳͖ ̷̯t̪̞͍͠ơ ̤̗b̬l̮͜o̮̹͞o̖͉̟͇͚͍̻͡d̨̗͓̝̘̫s̟h͈͍̪͕͖̬̲e͕͕͚̤̕d̡̟̹ͅ ̶̩̜͉̭ͅ mrmcd posted:My impression of the "cyber security" industry right now is a thin layer of cream floating on top of a enormous tank of snake oil. Blinkz0rz posted:Security is a great field to be in because you can literally sell trash that doesn't work and make a bazillion dollars. That's kinda my perception of it. It's really badly defined and a lot of the jobs going around don't seem to be very clear on what they want, but maybe that's the lack of brain cells talking. It's not something that really interests me, anyway - the only driving narrative behind it is "there's always gonna be a need for security so it's a stable job". Currently getting grilled on my future and how I need a stable career at the ripe old age of 27.  I wish I had a better response to family pestering me on my career other than "gently caress off and don't worry about it".
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Jul 18, 2017 00:10
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Pollyanna posted:My impression of fintech is that it's either maintaining old COBOL systems (or integrating with them ala literally what I do right now), or unstable HFT insanity. And you got this impression from...?
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Jul 18, 2017 00:19
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Pollyanna posted:Currently getting grilled on my future and how I need a stable career at the ripe old age of 27. In my family I'd have shot back with "Why don't YOU loving get a job in computer security?" or "They're always going to need undertakers, I know, why don't I go learn how to enbalm dead people?" but after years of introspection I came to realize that we might not have been the happiest family.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:31
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fantastic in plastic posted:In my family I'd have shot back with "Why don't YOU loving get a job in computer security?" or "They're always going to need undertakers, I know, why don't I go learn how to enbalm dead people?" but after years of introspection I came to realize that we might not have been the happiest family. I'm dealing with the most stubborn and lovely member of the family so it's not gonna go anywhere no matter what. The only way to deal with her is to ignore her, really.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:32
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I think I hosed the dog with this job move and I'm sort of severely regretting it.  warning.To elaborate: my previous employer had no QA, no CR, no real PMs (this role was literally handed off as a graduation from answering the phones at the front desk) and zero process to the point where even opening my email would noticeably raise my blood pressure. I needed out and spent about 7 months off and on looking between the latest nuclear explosion before landing a pretty sweet raise at what looked like a great place. Now that I've been here a little while: it fixes some of my problems with my last job but regresses in a few areas that turned out to be more important to me than I previously imagined: namely tech / severe tech debt and the people I work with. I feel in a rut career dev wise and despite literally being forced into every role imaginable, I did at least enjoy working with the other devs at my last job and find myself sorely missing that camaraderie. The logical thing to do is probably to start looking now for a better fit even if it takes a year this time, but I'm struggling with the idea of potentially leaving a new job within just a few months. It feels like some unforgivable sin despite having an ironclad excuse for doing so (long explanation that's irrelevant to the point of this post). Additionally it doesn't really make much sense for me to feel like that anyway as I don't have a job on my resume that's less than 3 years aside from internships almost 10 years ago.
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Jul 18, 2017 02:22
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Iverron posted:I think I hosed the dog with this job move and I'm sort of severely regretting it. It's fine job hopping is cool and good now, it's the only way to get raises, and even if it wasn't you get a few 'yeah that places was a disaster' several month jobs. Just be able to talk about why you've chosen to move on, no one really cares as long the reason isn't that you're incredibly stupid and bad.
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Jul 18, 2017 02:35
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Iverron posted:I think I hosed the dog with this job move and I'm sort of severely regretting it. Even IF it was not optimal to your career path to leave after only 3 months, it's far MORE detrimental to your career, health, and happiness in general to stay (if it's truly as bad as you say). Life is too short for lovely jobs, don't stay a second longer than you must.
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Jul 18, 2017 04:00
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I definitely agree. I just need to force myself to take action. Thanks all. Do I even list this place on my resume? Do I update my resume at all or address it as needed in an interview?
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Jul 18, 2017 15:10
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Although you can never be 100% sure, it's worth trying to think what observations or questions you could've had while interviewing for your current job that would've tipped you off to these problems, and then ask/observe those things in all future interviews.
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Jul 18, 2017 15:27
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Jaded Burnout posted:Although you can never be 100% sure, it's worth trying to think what observations or questions you could've had while interviewing for your current job that would've tipped you off to these problems, and then ask/observe those things in all future interviews. This is so tough. It wouldn't have helped at all in my current situation sadly cause of how much things shifted in the 6 weeks between interviewing, the offer being finalized, and me starting. That said I wish I was better at it for next time around.
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Jul 18, 2017 15:38
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Jaded Burnout posted:Although you can never be 100% sure, it's worth trying to think what observations or questions you could've had while interviewing for your current job that would've tipped you off to these problems, and then ask/observe those things in all future interviews. I will agree and amplify that: ask "hard" questions of the employer. I ask about profitability/runway, growth numbers, average turnover, friction points between tech team and the business, what their compensation targets/policy is, etc. For example, In a couple of cases I've asked directly about the lack of diversity (company with 100+ employees and literally zero non-white, non-males, in a pretty diverse city - wtf is up to cause that?) to get a feel if it's a cultural issue or just a statistical fluke. I'm not saying be confrontational, just ask directly and listen to what they say and how they say it. If they shy away from answering or hedge anything you feel is important, that's not a good sign.
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Jul 18, 2017 15:39
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Good Will Hrunting posted:This is so tough. It wouldn't have helped at all in my current situation sadly cause of how much things shifted in the 6 weeks between interviewing, the offer being finalized, and me starting. That said I wish I was better at it for next time around. Yeah, from what I remember of your situation you got shafted real hard on that one. It also doesn't help the appearance of short tenure if the company changes in the 3-6 months after being hired, either. We just have to do the best we can and not smile and nod and assume it'll all be fine, which many people (including me) tend to do.
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Jul 18, 2017 17:08
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Jaded Burnout posted:Although you can never be 100% sure, it's worth trying to think what observations or questions you could've had while interviewing for your current job that would've tipped you off to these problems, and then ask/observe those things in all future interviews. This is a lesson learned for me. I'd ask some questions I'd read here but realized that those didn't answer key questions I personally needed answering. In this case: I should have dug in a little harder about the legacy code as I was under the impression that a rewrite was underway when that's not really the case and more of a pipe dream. A lack of commitment to testing is one of the factors that drove me away from my last job and that's nearly impossible with this code base. It is really hard though. As much as I loathe the "spend a day with us" interviews, that would have ruled out this job for me within a few hours.
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Jul 18, 2017 17:22
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Hey Gang, taking over as lead on a medium-large-ish legacy project today. I was thinking of diagramming everything out in UML in order to get a better understanding of how the thing is built so I can start seeing where to make changes. My thinking is I don't want to go brazenly making changes without having a decent understanding of how this thing works. Any advice before I jump in?
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Jul 18, 2017 19:21
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Pixelboy posted:If you think you're not being evaluated, you're wrong. At least in some places, this is mostly not true. I maintain you cannot "fail" a lunch unless you do something extremely bad, that would likely get you fired or cautioned if you were actually working anyway.
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Jul 18, 2017 22:00
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Rudest Buddhist posted:Hey Gang, taking over as lead on a medium-large-ish legacy project today. I was thinking of diagramming everything out in UML in order to get a better understanding of how the thing is built so I can start seeing where to make changes. My thinking is I don't want to go brazenly making changes without having a decent understanding of how this thing works. Don't jump in the well, and if you do jump in, climb out as soon as possible; if you're having trouble climbing out, ropes may be available. I mean, if UML is useful to you, then do it, but I'd rather slam my dick in a drawer than read or write UML diagrams encompassing an entire codebase. The naming and organizational features of the codebase (e.g. repos, modules, packages and class names), others who have worked on the codebase, and any architectural or other documents should be a guide for the process. If the docs don't already exist, I'd start documenting project level use cases and do super roughed out flow diagrams for each use case to help identify common high-level functional components. Once you have those brilliantly encapsulated high-level functional components or squiggly mess of spaghetti roughly understood in concept, start looking more at the system state transitions and data models. From there, start to specialize in different areas of the project as they undergo modification and refactor these logical components to well-encapsulated modules as they become involved in functional changes.
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Jul 19, 2017 03:09
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