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Next season is going to be so good with Joest Mazda and Penske Acura teams challenging WTR and the rest of the Cadillacs. Now if ESM ever gets their poo poo together...
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Jul 18, 2017 16:36
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Really weird to see Joest involved with a non-German manufacturer. e) really, has that ever happened? Joest was with Porsche/Audi for decades in Le Mans, and was briefly running the factory Opels in DTM/ITC. About the only German manufacturer they didn't touch was BMW, probably because Schnitzer is the BMW house team. Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Jul 18, 2017 |
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Jul 18, 2017 16:43
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Thats nuts. I always thought using SpeedSource was working against Mazda, but I sorta figured thats all they were willing to spend. Guess not! The other piece of news in there, that Riley has formally bailed on the car, also confirms some rumors. Good that Multimatic has stepped up and that Mazda plans on sticking with it though. Once we get 2 DPi's with the same base chassis, it won't be quite as fun in some ways.
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Jul 18, 2017 17:21
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IMSA is going to be insane next year. I'd have to think this also would help accelerate the impending irrelevance of LMP1. Joest was a proven P1 team, and now they're not available to be picked up by a potential interested P1 manufacturer. It doesn't seem like Joest would "settle" for a DPi campaign unless to them, it's not really settling at all.
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Jul 18, 2017 17:32
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Team Joest tried to buy Audi's LMP1HYs at the end of the Audi factory program, because they wanted to keep running and hopefully winning, but Audi and the ACO wouldn't allow the team to buy them, because of the rules prohibiting privateers from running a hybrid effort. Next year is going to be really interesting.
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Jul 18, 2017 17:37
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orange juche posted:Team Joest tried to buy Audi's LMP1HYs at the end of the Audi factory program, because they wanted to keep running and hopefully winning, but Audi and the ACO wouldn't allow the team to buy them, because of the rules prohibiting privateers from running a hybrid effort. Next year is going to be really interesting. I believe Penske tried too, but obviously no dice (common perception is that JPM would have had a ride, and would have likely been the 2nd to complete the triple crown). Joest running Mazda though... 
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Jul 18, 2017 17:39
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You think the ACO's regretting not letting the DPi's run Le Mans yet?
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Jul 18, 2017 19:57
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RE: LMP1HY http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints/item/142415-pruett-the-start-of-something-big?showall=&limitstart=1 quote:The strongest endorsement for DPi came from Joest Racing technical director Ralf Juttner. With the FIA WEC's LMP1 Hybrid class (above) on shaky ground, the last bastion for cost-effective manufacturer involvement in prototype racing has been left to a regional sports car series based in Daytona Beach. And he isn't complaining. Might be reading too far into the word "done" here, but he doesn't seem very bullish about the future at least.
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Jul 18, 2017 20:34
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If Porsche is out of LMP1, that only leaves Toyota in the HY class. They're not going to stick around if there's no competition. Joest is right about that. But this is exactly what I was saying earlier. If Joest sees the writing on the wall in LMP1, then it's only a question of when everyone else does at this point.
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Jul 18, 2017 20:40
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I completely forgot that ByKolles pulled out of LMP-1.
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Jul 18, 2017 21:47
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Can't wait to see a Joest Mazda DPi beat Toyota at LeMans next year.
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Jul 18, 2017 21:50
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track day bro! posted:Can't wait to see a Joest Mazda DPi beat Toyota at LeMans next year. 
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Jul 18, 2017 22:25
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track day bro! posted:Can't wait to see a Joest Mazda DPi beat Toyota at LeMans next year. they would have to be allowed to run as non-hybrid LMP1s realistically (the manufacturers won't want to be pulled back to LMP2 speeds) and that situation would take Peugeot not biting and Porsche backing away at the end of 2017 full-stop to happen. But, like I mentioned, that would collapse the LMP1 World Championship because one of their tenets of the WEC (and of the ACO/FIA agreement) is having minimum two factory LMP1 teams running all year long. So if anyone leaves, it would require a new team stepping in immediately (note that Toyota did so a year early when Peugeot decided not to continue for 2012. really excited for IMSA at the moment, and the diversity of race lengths helps too. Looking back on the Grand Am purchase/merger with ALMS, where we are now is probably the best-case scenario, right? They've gotten rid of the proto-turtles for something much better (...which so happens to involve manufacturers at a much cheaper level than true LMP1 on the global scale), it kept the ALMS' best feature (GTE) and has morphed the GTD from "a weird rules package" into a top privateer (for the most part) GT3 series on the world stage.
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Jul 18, 2017 23:43
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harperdc posted:they would have to be allowed to run as non-hybrid LMP1s realistically (the manufacturers won't want to be pulled back to LMP2 speeds) and that situation would take Peugeot not biting and Porsche backing away at the end of 2017 full-stop to happen. But, like I mentioned, that would collapse the LMP1 World Championship because one of their tenets of the WEC (and of the ACO/FIA agreement) is having minimum two factory LMP1 teams running all year long. So if anyone leaves, it would require a new team stepping in immediately (note that Toyota did so a year early when Peugeot decided not to continue for 2012. You could chop off the prototype group and bury it, and you would still have the best GT racing in the world IMO.
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Jul 18, 2017 23:47
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Cygni posted:Might be reading too far into the word "done" here, but he doesn't seem very bullish about the future at least. He's still hella pissed that the ACO decided not to let non-Manufacturers race P1HY's (although it remains to be seen if the 2017 Audi was going to be competitive in any event, ignoring the fact that VAG was almost certainly never going to let someone else drive that car). dsriggs posted:You think the ACO's regretting not letting the DPi's run Le Mans yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJXYMDu6dpY The ACO is trying to define itself against F1 and F-E, and it's been chasing Electric drive feverishly for the last 5 years (and the current iteration of the 2020 rules indicate that that's where it sees it's future). Allowing DPi would be a clear move against that.
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Jul 19, 2017 03:06
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harperdc posted:they would have to be allowed to run as non-hybrid LMP1s realistically (the manufacturers won't want to be pulled back to LMP2 speeds) and that situation would take Peugeot not biting and Porsche backing away at the end of 2017 full-stop to happen. But, like I mentioned, that would collapse the LMP1 World Championship because one of their tenets of the WEC (and of the ACO/FIA agreement) is having minimum two factory LMP1 teams running all year long. So if anyone leaves, it would require a new team stepping in immediately (note that Toyota did so a year early when Peugeot decided not to continue for 2012. While I think DPis are a bit unbalanced against their LMP2 counterparts, IMSA does have the 36 hours of Daytona, which, let's be honest, all the big LMP2, GTE, and GT3 teams will participate in to shake down their cars in advance of their respective seasons if they aren't sticking with IMSA. I think they can add in maybe one more true enduro (RA, please?), but yeah, the diversity helps. It'd be nice if they were at Sonoma on Cup weekend too as a support series for an even bigger boost.
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Jul 19, 2017 05:15
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Human Grand Prix posted:I completely forgot that ByKolles pulled out of LMP-1. They didn't? They were at the Nurburgring last weekend. Although I think they were considering taking the rest of the year to prepare for the arrival of the other privateers in 2018.
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Jul 19, 2017 10:43
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iospace posted:While I think DPis are a bit unbalanced against their LMP2 counterparts, IMSA does have the 36 hours of Daytona, which, let's be honest, all the big LMP2, GTE, and GT3 teams will participate in to shake down their cars in advance of their respective seasons if they aren't sticking with IMSA. I think they can add in maybe one more true enduro (RA, please?), but yeah, the diversity helps. It'd be nice if they were at Sonoma on Cup weekend too as a support series for an even bigger boost. The DPis are always going to be balanced to be faster than the WEC-spec P2s because they're factory entrants. They're provided by factories putting money directly into IMSA. And yeah Dudley ByKolles is done after the German round, they're (allegedly) going to work on the car as opposed to sending it to North America, Asia and back. Somewhat sensible.
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Jul 19, 2017 10:55
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IMSA has said the DPi's are not supposed to be faster than the WEC spec P2s. Marshall wrote an article about everyone in IMSA desperately hoping a P2 car wins at some point. They need the P2's to be competitive to keep rich dudes with money interested, and rich dudes with money is the engine the entire series runs on, more than even manufacturers. http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/142082-pruett-a-p2-and-a-prayer
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Jul 19, 2017 21:59
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Cygni posted:IMSA has said the DPi's are not supposed to be faster than the WEC spec P2s. Marshall wrote an article about everyone in IMSA desperately hoping a P2 car wins at some point. They need the P2's to be competitive to keep rich dudes with money interested, and rich dudes with money is the engine the entire series runs on, more than even manufacturers. I agree, it needs to be perceived as a legit option, however "all are equal, and some are more equal" will rule the day because the manufacturers pay in even more so than the team owners. so far the DPis have been factory-team-only, and even more than the WEC P2s winning, they need a manufacturer to step into the Porsche 962 role and both run their own team and be willing to supply customers. None of the privateers would have a WEC P2 if a DPi was an option, and while yes they have to worry about their car count, each new manufacturer pays in to the sponsorship pie as a series requirement. Nissan being a DPi and paying that fee means a GTD team could go get the GT-R GT3 and compete, whereas if somebody wanted to, say, bring a McLaren GT3 car, they'd also have to stump up that manufacturer money. This is why some GT3s have come over and others haven't.
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Jul 19, 2017 22:57
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harperdc posted:I agree, it needs to be perceived as a legit option, however "all are equal, and some are more equal" will rule the day because the manufacturers pay in even more so than the team owners. so far the DPis have been factory-team-only, and even more than the WEC P2s winning, they need a manufacturer to step into the Porsche 962 role and both run their own team and be willing to supply customers. None of the privateers would have a WEC P2 if a DPi was an option, and while yes they have to worry about their car count, each new manufacturer pays in to the sponsorship pie as a series requirement. Nissan being a DPi and paying that fee means a GTD team could go get the GT-R GT3 and compete, whereas if somebody wanted to, say, bring a McLaren GT3 car, they'd also have to stump up that manufacturer money. This is why some GT3s have come over and others haven't. The whole premise of the DPi program is privateers will be able to purchase the DPi platforms. As far as the DPis being available, I don't think that some constructors are able to provide the chassis needed for the program to be expanded to privateers. *cough*Riley*cough* Seriously though, I don't think the DPi plans were fully thought through. Chassis constructors do need to make DPi's available to privateers if they want the DPi formula to succeed. They're gonna have to reel the DPis back in until 2020 unless they can make DPis available next year for P2 privateers, because I don't think any privateers are going to buy a car they can only use for 1 season and then it gets obsoleted by the car being re-homologated in 2020. orange juche fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jul 19, 2017 |
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Jul 19, 2017 23:12
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orange juche posted:The whole premise of the DPi program is privateers will be able to purchase the DPi platforms. As far as the DPis being available, I don't think that some constructors are able to provide the chassis needed for the program to be expanded to privateers. *cough*Riley*cough* Privateers were included in the DPi plans, but the spec P2 cars were supposed to be exactly equal. So lack of any specific DPi to any given team wasn't a game changer, rich guys could just pick up an Oreca or Ligier. Like I was saying, the twin sources of money that keep sportscar racing afloat is car manufacturers and rich people. They wanted the P2 cars to be equal so that the rich people faucet could stay on, while also upping the manufacturer faucet. They wanted to make room for both in the same class. If you lose the rich guy faucet, you lose essentially the whole GTD field and probably 3+ protos. Cadillac crushing the field has been a bit of a worst case scenario for them. They need the spec P2 to be winning races to keep the rich guy faucet on, otherwise they will go to Europe. They also need the other DPis to start winning to keep the manufacturer faucet on. At some point, IMSA will be forced to hammer the Caddy on BoP if nothing else. In reality, I think the performance disparity is not as bad as it seems. PR1 and JDC are new to the top step, the Nissan is fast but still teething, and Mazda/VFR are stuck in the Riley drama. I imagine Rebellion would have won a race by now if they were running full time, and this convo might be a bit different.
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Jul 20, 2017 00:04
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Cygni posted:Privateers were included in the DPi plans, but the spec P2 cars were supposed to be exactly equal. So lack of any specific DPi to any given team wasn't a game changer, rich guys could just pick up an Oreca or Ligier. Like I was saying, the twin sources of money that keep sportscar racing afloat is car manufacturers and rich people. They wanted the P2 cars to be equal so that the rich people faucet could stay on, while also upping the manufacturer faucet. They wanted to make room for both in the same class. If you lose the rich guy faucet, you lose essentially the whole GTD field and probably 3+ protos. They really need to work on the BoP then, because the field should be neck and neck between WEC P2s and the heavier DPi's. It seems they gave the DPi's on the whole, too much power and the Cadillacs in particular with their LS engines that have massive amounts of horsepower and torque on tap.
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Jul 20, 2017 00:46
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They should have made the caddies use the 5.5L that the Corvette uses.
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Jul 20, 2017 00:48
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orange juche posted:They really need to work on the BoP then, because the field should be neck and neck between WEC P2s and the heavier DPi's. It seems they gave the DPi's on the whole, too much power and the Cadillacs in particular with their LS engines that have massive amounts of horsepower and torque on tap. Mazda was under-prepared and now starting the program over. ESM came in a bit hot and their DPi has more teething problems but is on pace until it breaks. Cadillac has a good chassis partner and ran tons of test miles last year. How many of the P2s in IMSA have pro/pro driver lineups on the level of the DPi teams, too? The cars can be equal but they still need to be steered.
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Jul 20, 2017 00:50
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BMW's new GTE car: http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/142455-bmw-m8-gte-breaks-cover 
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Jul 20, 2017 18:02
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Can someone photoshop the nose of the Mercedes AMG GT3 on there? I want to make sure I'm not crazy.
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Jul 20, 2017 18:19
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It looks so fat
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Jul 20, 2017 19:35
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I'm fairly certain JDC would have won at Mosport, if the tire gamble had paid off. Simpson chose the wrong tire and it bit them.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:54
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Is anyone actually excited about the M8 GTE in real life?
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Jul 21, 2017 00:16
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an oddly awful oud posted:Is anyone actually excited about the M8 GTE in real life? I am, if only because it means them at Le Mans next year.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:22
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iospace posted:I am, if only because it means them at Le Mans next year. Same, also good to see them investing in a ground-up factory GTE car, after the last few have been an up-jumped GT3 and a contract job.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:36
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I just can't hyped about a big personal luxury coupe as a race car. I know Aston does it with the Vantage, and I can't explain why that works for me while the M6 GTLM and M8 GTE feel like somebody tried to make a yacht into a cigarette boat. As a marketing exercise, it feels weird, too- I mean, is a retired surgeon in the market for a $100,000 luxo-coupe going to care about the bragging rights that come from racing compared to, say, a prospective M4 buyer? It feels confused, like most of BMW's decisions these days.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:32
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what was wrong with the M6 V8 iteration? It looked tankish enough. Can't they just wedge a (now turbo) V8 into an M3 like the old days so they could hang with the 911's/Corvettes?
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Jul 21, 2017 02:41
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Keyser_Soze posted:what was wrong with the M6 V8 iteration? It looked tankish enough. Can't they just wedge a (now turbo) V8 into an M3 like the old days so they could hang with the 911's/Corvettes? The 6 series becoming the 8 series the 5 series GT is becoming the 6 series. This is the 2018 640i 
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Jul 21, 2017 02:49
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they want to market those huge luxury sedan barges (they arent coupes, gently caress you BMW/Mercedes) cause they are expensive as hell and have fantastic margins. the new 8 is gonna start at like 85k+. they are also selling well, eating up a lot of market share to old rich people. in a series thats performance balanced anyway, its probably smart to run what you want to sell.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:53
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Powershift posted:The 6 series becoming the 8 series Yeah, I saw that 6GT as a direct competitor to Tesla Model X with the similar styling and $85k price. It's better looking than the 5GT I guess, meh. I'm pretty sure it won't win many LeMans races either.
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Jul 21, 2017 03:18
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Cygni posted:they want to market those huge luxury sedan barges (they arent coupes, gently caress you BMW/Mercedes) cause they are expensive as hell and have fantastic margins. the new 8 is gonna start at like 85k+. they are also selling well, eating up a lot of market share to old rich people. in a series thats performance balanced anyway, its probably smart to run what you want to sell. 2-door coupes are actually way out of favor right now and Mercedes is contemplating killing off either the SL or S-Class Coupe because of the redundancy in an overall small, niche market. That news came out right before BMW announced the revival of the 8-Series and a lot of people are wondering what kind of demand there actually is for another big, expensive luxury coupe. You're right that the BoP and ballasting is going to make the size of the car somewhat irrelevant (the M6 GTLM is the lightest car in its class, despite looking enormous) but the whole thing feels like a really bizarre decision. If racing was a powerful marketing tool in this niche then yeah, I could understand it I guess, but did racing the F13 in two different classes in multiple series help its sales or perceived desirability at all? Not much, because the 4-door Gran Coupe outsold both the 2-door M6 variants combined. It was bad enough that BMW ceased production of the 2-door variants a year before the GC. If anything, I wish they'd dropped the V8TT into the i8. Yeah it's the wrong engine in the wrong orientation, but it's not like they didn't waiver the V8 engine in the Z4 GTE or the transaxle in the M6 GLTM in past years. And while BMW may be trying to sweep the whole i-Division under the rug, it would've added a spark of life to a car that nobody's talked much about since 2015.
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Jul 21, 2017 04:19
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an oddly awful oud posted:2-door coupes are actually way out of favor right now Yeah, I was talkin about the 4 door sedans with lovely view angles BMW/Merc call "coupes" these days.
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Jul 21, 2017 13:15
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Cygni posted:Yeah, I was talkin about the 4 door sedans with lovely view angles BMW/Merc call "coupes" these days. Or even worse, said 4-doors on tall tires  I'm a purist and don't like them at all, but they're selling a ton.
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Jul 22, 2017 01:06
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