|
There's perhaps no better sign of end-of-history hubris than the people who wrote the EU rules never really considering that maybe they should have mechanisms to punish member countries that did horrible undemocratic poo poo
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 17:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 20:37 |
|
|
vyelkin posted:There's perhaps no better sign of end-of-history hubris than the people who wrote the EU rules never really considering that maybe they should have mechanisms to punish member countries that did horrible undemocratic poo poo They have the mechanism, but they are not keen to use it. De jure, they can pull their money out.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 18:32
|
|
|
vyelkin posted:There's perhaps no better sign of end-of-history hubris than the people who wrote the EU rules never really considering that maybe they should have mechanisms to punish member countries that did horrible undemocratic poo poo A lot of what they could potentially do is being blocked by Hungary. Including a power of absolute veto is the single worst thing you can do when establishing an organisation and yet it somehow keeps happening.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 18:34
|
|
|
Aumanor posted:A lot of what they could potentially do is being blocked by Hungary. Including a power of absolute veto is the single worst thing you can do when establishing an organisation and yet it somehow keeps happening. Poland's future endangered by an absolute veto, in 2017? History has a cruel sense of humor.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 18:58
|
|
|
So I chose to protest the fall of Poland's judiciary system in the most traditional way this land has known. Sitting home, drinking alone. Lichtenstein fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Jul 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 22:19
|
|
|
Aumanor posted:A lot of what they could potentially do is being blocked by Hungary. Including a power of absolute veto is the single worst thing you can do when establishing an organisation and yet it somehow keeps happening.  I am starting to believe that occupation by Germany happened too soon and now would be the right time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 22:30
|
|
|
Dwesa posted:Well, kick Orban's Hungary too, problem solved Problem is, Poland would block that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 23:16
|
|
|
V4 is on its merry way to become a dictatorship preserve within the EU; the Czech Rep is probably next after the autumn elections.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 23:45
|
|
|
PiS got the Supreme Court, next up - the electoral system, it's Hungary mark II. A total abortion ban will probably be back on the agenda once the current shitstorm dies down.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 06:05
|
|
|
anilEhilated posted:V4 is on its merry way to become a dictatorship preserve within the EU; the Czech Rep is probably next after the autumn elections. ANO are "just" oligarchical kleptocrats of the Macron style, though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 07:44
|
|
|
EC is threatening Poland with 300 thousand euro daily fine if the new justice "reform" comes into effect.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 14:39
|
|
|
By the way, the law is so rushed that within the span of six paragraphs it contradicts itself on how many Supreme Court candidates are to be presented to the president for choosing. The Senate is not considering this an error worth correcting, as it would bounce the draft back to the lower house. (They want to rush this poo poo out before the extended deadline for Supreme Court's opinion on a controversial presidential pardon of one of PiS' stooges)
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 14:49
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:ANO are "just" oligarchical kleptocrats of the Macron style, though. I know no one takes that book seriously and they're probably right given all the contradictions but parts of it are legitimately scary. e: I'm starting to think "Law and Justice" isn't actually a name but a hit list.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 17:08
|
|
|
Had an interesting return journey from Budapest (amazing) to Ukraine today. Ended up running/jumping (literally) onto a moving sleeper train to get back home and was corrected multiple times to speak Russian instead of Ukrainian by a passenger. Then the passenger came into my coupe and tried speaking some English with me. The conversation involved Trump being great, Obama being bad because he's black, and Poroshenko being a fascist. Also, gently caress crossing the border here in the west.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 20:53
|
|
|
How China Will Infiltrate Europe (Using the Czech Republic) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-hX-7VawfY Zeman being a total chinaboo is funny
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2017 07:04
|
|
|
catfry posted:Worth noting that the only motorways in Poland from 1936 to 1977 were those that were built by Nazi Germany. The only thing that could form traffic on Polish roads were Soviet tank divisions and they didn't need motorways. In 1960 there were 4 cars per thousand Poles; by 1970 this had increased to 15 per thousand. Meanwhile in East Germany the figure was 223 per thousand persons!
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2017 08:18
|
|
|
Any realistic prospect of the people forcing the government to back down here? This looks pretty intense. https://twitter.com/golaszewskimar/status/889184959004639233
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2017 22:52
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:Any realistic prospect of the people forcing the government to back down here? No.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2017 22:55
|
|
|
Also, today's funsies: it turned out that in the rush to get the overnight voting done, the senate voted on a different draft of the bill than the one actually submitted by the lower house.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2017 22:56
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:Any realistic prospect of the people forcing the government to back down here? This looks pretty intense.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2017 23:38
|
|
|
Mother of gently caress, Duda is actually vetoing two of the three bills.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 09:18
|
|
|
Okay, now things get interesting.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 09:28
|
|
|
Even more amazingly, it seems Duda actually took a stand for once: PiS parliamentarians seem genuinely surprised by the decision and his speech included direct jabs at Ziobro.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 09:39
|
|
|
Lichtenstein posted:Mother of gently caress, Duda is actually vetoing two of the three bills. Which one got through, or is that just undecided?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 10:18
|
|
|
cinci zoo sniper posted:Which one got through, or is that just undecided?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 10:23
|
|
|
For those less familiar with Polish politics: No one expected Duda to veto anything EVER. EVERYONE, including PiSS took him for Kaczyński's sock puppet. Presidents in Poland don't have that much power to begin with, and when the Parliament is controlled by their politica; option their role gets pretty much purely representative. Hell, he was widely referred to as "pen" in the internet, because the only thing he did was give his signature on the bills PiS voted on.
Aumanor fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Jul 24, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 10:44
|
|
|
I still can't believe he vetoed two of the laws. I literally had to check several websites to make sure someone wasn't playing a joke. Duda finally grew some balls and did something independently of Duckman and his goblin horde. loving shocking. I especially like how he pointed out in his speech that Poland has no tradition of allowing the prosecutor general to make high court appointments (which the law would have allowed), a direct shot at Ziobro. I know I'm probably getting ahead of myself but for the first time in a year I feel some small inkling of hope that maybe we won't become Russia-lite (or at least not completely).
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 10:49
|
|
|
Lol, PiS called an emergency party conference. Apparently Duda didn't let them know he was vetoing the laws. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY1-v97Mic
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 10:52
|
|
|
Is it hard veto, though, or is he sending them back to the Constitutional Tribunal? I think I heard something to that effect.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 11:09
|
|
|
It's the straight ol' fashioned veto bouncing the bill back to Sejm. And since the Kukiz stooges said they would not vote in favor of overturning it, the one way left to brute-force the current draft is for PiS to pull off some Column Hall shenanigans again, as their parliamentarians alone constitute the necessary quorum to do that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 11:12
|
|
|
Tevery Best posted:Is it hard veto, though, or is he sending them back to the Constitutional Tribunal? I think I heard something to that effect. I think its hard veto. Here's his words: quote:Zdecydowałem, że zwrócę z powrotem Sejmowi, czyli zawetuję ustawę o Sądzie Najwyższym, jak również o KRS, albowiem Sejm doprowadził do tego, że są one ze sobą powiązane And here's the shot at Ziobro: quote:Prezydent mówił, że w polskiej tradycji konstytucyjnej prokurator generalny nigdy nie miał żadnego nadzoru nad Sądem Najwyższym ani nigdy nie decydował "w przemożnym stopniu" o tym, kto może być sędzią Sądu Najwyższego. - Nie było też powiedziane, że o sposobie i regułach pracy i funkcjonowaniu Sądu Najwyższego będzie decydował Prokurator Generalny poprzez ustalanie regulaminu" - powiedział. - Nie ma u nas tradycji, by prokurator generalny mógł w jakikolwiek sposób ingerować w pracę Sądu Najwyższego - podkreślił.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 11:15
|
|
|
Here's a fragment of the press conference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MHtAsANGE8 My initial analysis from what he says is that PiS completely discounted him and his input and refused to take his concerns seriously, expecting him to be the rubber stamp they installed him to be, and he's had enough of it. Looks like duckman's pathological unpleasantness and belief in his own omnipotence has bit him in his rear end again.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 11:25
|
|
|
A Pale Horse posted:Looks like duckman's pathological unpleasantness and belief in his own omnipotence has bit him in his rear end again. God, if only. I guess it's telling that at this point the confusion and butthurt that certain (all?) PiS members must be feeling makes me happier than a few extra weeks of not being Russia/Turkey/Belarus. On the other hand I'm feeling new, uncomfortable, alien emotions toward "our" president. Almost as if I despised him a little bit less..
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 13:47
|
|
|
All it takes for the triumph of good is for evil to roll a critical fumble.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 13:53
|
|
|
RedSnapper posted:God, if only. I guess it's telling that at this point the confusion and butthurt that certain (all?) PiS members must be feeling makes me happier than a few extra weeks of not being Russia/Turkey/Belarus. I'm hoping for another meltdown from Kaczyński, personally.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 13:58
|
|
|
Fatal Error posted:I'm hoping for another meltdown from Kaczyński, personally. Oh God, yes! What I REALLY want to see though is him leaving Polish politics, weather via retirement or (natural) death. I'm not wishing him a swift death, mind you, I just want to see the glorious implosion of PiS as party higher-ups jump at each other's throats.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 14:42
|
|
|
Is there a good summary of what's lead to this situation in Poland somewhere, preferably in English? I've tangentially followed Polish politics, but would love a recap of what lead to PiS and the current controversy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 09:48
|
|
|
For some years, the local politics have devolved into essentially two-party system. The democrats equivalent (Civic Platform) ruled for 8 years on a platform of slightly right-leaning spineless, opportunistic centrism*, but it was generally ok, if only for keeping the current crazies at bay. However, several things happened to lead to their eventual downfall: - 8 years is a long time for people to get fed up with various corruption schemes that cropped up every once in a while - In paranoid fear of alienating any single voter, there has been little in terms of political platform, or an ideology, behind the Civic Platform, apart from "PiS bad, there's limited options for voting against them". And, as it turns out, there's only so long you can coast on that. - The general, worldwide turn towards the far-right has happened, which somewhat unexpectedly put a lot of the youth vote in the PiS camp. - Party's leader, Donald Tusk, has hosed off to Brussels to become the European Council President some half a year before the election. Given that many years ago he cleared the party from people who could threaten him internally as a leader, the Civic Platform was suddenly left with useless stooges at the helm, leading to a series of embarrasing mistakes and PR suicides that persists to this day. - The Smoleńsk plane crash was successfully spun into some JFK-assasination grade poo poo - We are living in a post-meme reality and nothing makes sense anymore As for the post-election developments, it's an ongoing story of PiS channeling the Trump-like superpower of simply not giving a gently caress and doing as they please. Which, in practice, is mostly obsessive revanchism, blatant cronyism and paying lip service to various right-wing groups that support them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 10:41
|
|
|
tl;dr
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 11:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 20:37 |
|
|
Honestly the downfall of the Civic Platform is an absolute case study in how "post-political", "politics is management" centrism eats itself. Politicians in other countries could learn from it. Keep in mind that with Poland's low turnout (~50% usually) mobilizing voters is critical to campaign strategy. Long story short, their desperation to appeal to every single voter base made them alienate everyone. They alienated progressives, once a core part of their base, by rolling increasingly more conservative politicians into their ranks and hewing for 8 years to what was considered "vaguely maybe progressive" in 2007. They didn't whip their members on votes concerning gay rights (and nothing was ever passed because the right wing of the party voted against) or reproductive rights (and the right wing voted against abortion rights and IVF refunding) or secularism. So progressive voters became disaffected and increasingly stayed home. At the same time, they paid plenty of lip service to liberalism and progress and Europe and so on, which progressives had stopped buying long ago because nothing got done, but it worked very well to alienate part of their conservative voter base. In the meantime, the Polish conservative movement grew increasingly radical and a lot of them drifted over to PiS. Plus, since they were so afraid of alienating conservatives and the Catholic Church, they never acted against increasingly nationalistic developments in culture. While aggressive far-right organizations grew, the Minister for Internal Affairs made grand proclamations of "we're coming for you" and then, predictably, sat on his hands. They never did anything about the nationalist-skewing curriculum in schools or the hard-right control over the national institute for historical research either, allowing the Right free reign in cultural hegemony and pretty much giving up the younger generaton without a fight. On the economic front, they alienated both free-marketeer and interventionist voters. Income tax remains low, but sales and vice taxes were raised regularly despite pledges to the contrary. There was huge public spending on infrastructure and various grand projects that could be sold as "apolitical", but while economic growth went well, public services and welfare remained underfunded, pissing off the poorer part of the population that increasingly felt the much-touted GDP growth wasn't doing enough to raise their living standards. Unemployment was kept somewhat in check by emigration, but wages were still choked pretty badly on the lower end of the scale. Meanwhile, their pro-business policies increasingly turned from small-business fetishism to lucrative deals for big companies owned by influential businessmen. Their anti-corruption rhetoric was wholly unbelievable after a series of scandals where the culprits weren't punished. It all culminated when former president Komorowski refused to campaign for re-election. I don't mean he didn't stand - he did, but in the first round he straight up refused to participate in debates or do serious campaigning out of sheer arrogance. When he did, he made horrifying gaffes, like famously dismissing a young man who confronted him about a lack of economic prospects for young people, telling him to "get a loan and switch jobs". When he lost the first round and saw the surprisingly good results of protest candidate Kukiz, he promptly panicked and called a referendum on Kukiz's campaign pledges. Which was a spectacular show of weak leadership, and the referendum ended up having a 7% turnout, sinking the ship further. In general, PO's school of doing politics, especially in their second tenure, can be summed up as "promise something to satisfy voters on one side of the issue, then don't do it in order to satisfy voters on the other side". By 2015 their credibility was shot. Ultimately, PiS had an open goal and they played it well, hiding their most controversial politicians and serving up a few popular promises (primarily 500+, which is a huge welfare program for parents) was enough.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 12:55
|
|
