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Also also consider that a lot of abilities don't have a linear effect on dps, or are utility abilities that don't have any effect on dps at all. You're seriously understating how needlessly complex this would be compared with the current system.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:08
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Fister Roboto posted:That still sounds like a loving nightmare when you consider all the different factors you have to account for. What factors? DPS is the only factor that matters here.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:08
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Now you're just being dense.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:10
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Just to be clear, I'm not saying they do this for raids and everything, just LDR. e: can even be just skills up to level 50. Truga fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 20:13
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the gulf between--say--a level 70 white mage with all the fixings (aoe mitigation from holy, tetra, benediction, PI, regen) and a level 17 one is moses-in-the-red-sea-level big
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Jul 21, 2017 20:17
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Reiterpallasch posted:the gulf between--say--a level 70 white mage with all the fixings (aoe mitigation from holy, tetra, benediction, PI, regen) and a level 17 one is moses-in-the-red-sea-level big and it absolutely doesn't matter in copperhell
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Jul 21, 2017 20:18
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don't scale healing potency numbers down: sprout conjurers in satasha heal for like 10% of what synced white mages do. afk level 70 scholars on sic are literally better healers than the best level 17 player in the world. scale healing potency numbers down 10x: boy, it sure is fun having to slam benison (divine seal, swiftcast) -> cure 2 (tetra) to survive the first boss of sastasha. edit: also, benediction wouldn't be affected anyway
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Jul 21, 2017 20:19
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Truga posted:and it absolutely doesn't matter in copperhell it matters a shitton if someone is actually doing these dungeons for progression how would you learn to tank properly when the DPS can nuke down early game mobs in a second
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Jul 21, 2017 20:20
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Imagine being a newbie rogue and getting kicked from your first Sastasha run because you don't have Trick Attack.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:20
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Countblanc posted:One of the best things about modern WoW is how early classes, even individual specs (which are basically classes unto themselves at this point), come online. You feel like an Enhancement Shaman, which feels different from an Arms Warrior, an Outlaw Rogue, or a Retribution Paladin, as early as level 10, and it only splits further from there. Classes/jobs in FFXIV take significantly longer to become fun, let alone different from other jobs in their role. Melee DPS is probably the most egregious example of this, but it's still pretty common among the other roles - look at the level-synced healers for another big example. The poxy, leprous hand of Celestalon grasps your ankle as he groans, "CLAaaasssss FAAAANTtaaaaaSYYYYYYYyyyyyyy...." SAN loss.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:21
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the more sensible option which I'm pretty sure they're going with anyway is to just adjust what levels certain utilities are available at so that people have access to AOE and other such important things earlier on. sprouts won't get hosed over and roulette players will be at least a bit less bored
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Jul 21, 2017 20:21
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Truga posted:and it absolutely doesn't matter in copperhell There's dungeons between the intro three and Kugane Castle, you know.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:22
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Ciaphas posted:This is what's making it hard for me to choose whether to buy Omega gear for NIN or BLM next week. BLM is so ludicrously satisfying to get right, until everything goes wrong on you. I'm not playing BLM right now so I can't comment too much on the state of things, but I played it for the entirety of 2.X and 3.X, the latter of which was apparently difficult/tedious enough for people to hate its subsystem, and more than any other job BLM's potency just loving skyrockets as you learn fights. It's very satisfying.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:22
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Augus posted:it matters a shitton if someone is actually doing these dungeons for progression Yeah, it's worth remembering that people are regularly doing new content. It sucks when you random into copperhell with 4 level 70s but a lot of the time when you're getting low level dungeons it is because it's someone's first attempt.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:23
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Bleu posted:The poxy, leprous hand of Celestalon grasps your ankle as he groans, "CLAaaasssss FAAAANTtaaaaaSYYYYYYYyyyyyyy...." I don't actually know who Celestalon is.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:23
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Imagine being a level 70 dragoon in Tam Tara and having to do your full rotation to do the same dps as the level 16 guy spamming Impulse Drive.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:23
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also your table lookup plan doesn't even work for dps, because it wouldn't take into account things like pulls being bigger at higher levels
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Jul 21, 2017 20:23
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I do know that the Class Fantasy meme got tossed around a lot in WoW discussion when they were redoing classes because it's a dumb phrase but it led to cool ideas like Beastmaster hunters actually getting a shitload of beasts and Enhancement shamans getting their sick lightning cleave move. It's a good outlook for game design, though probably not game balance which needs to be much more closely examined than "my class fantasy is to do the most damage and never die".
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Jul 21, 2017 20:25
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it wouldn't work if calculated as potency per second instead of damage per second either, because of things like newbie blms being restricted to AF1
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Jul 21, 2017 20:25
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Augus posted:it matters a shitton if someone is actually doing these dungeons for progression Same, but almost every class currently because you don't have aoe it doesn't happen now, it won't happen then
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Jul 21, 2017 20:26
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Fister Roboto posted:Imagine being a level 70 dragoon in Tam Tara and having to do your full rotation to do the same dps as the level 16 guy spamming Impulse Drive. I think impulse drive spam is dead, actually. Last I checked Full Thrust -> Vorpal Thrust gives you 10 more potency than Impulse Drive -> Impulse Drive in SB. Kinda makes Impulse Drive useless when you first get it but whatever. Point still stands tho, yeah.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:28
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Truga posted:Same, but almost every class currently because you don't have aoe small brain: not having aoe moves in sastasha sucks medium brain: maybe every class should get an aoe move at low levels exploding brain: actually, everything will be fine if we calculate a precise lookup table characterizing the difference in rotational efficiency relative to median level capped performance (ignoring the fact that sprouts generally wear slightly outdated gear and synced players will be wearing at-level HQ) and apply it as a mandatory malus to everyone synced down. furthermore,
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Jul 21, 2017 20:30
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Just consider the massive gulf of difference between a level 70 scholar who gets three aetherflow stacks every 45 seconds (plus dissipation!) and can spend them on a huge variety of abilities, versus a level 15 scholar who gets one stack a minute and can only spend it on energy drain.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:31
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yeah but those energy drains will hit for like 35 potency
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Jul 21, 2017 20:32
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Fister Roboto posted:Just consider the massive gulf of difference between a level 70 scholar who gets three aetherflow stacks every 45 seconds (plus dissipation!) and can spend them on a huge variety of abilities, versus a level 15 scholar who gets one stack a minute and can only spend it on energy drain. There is absolutely zero, because eos can handle everything. Reiterpallasch posted:small brain: not having aoe moves in sastasha sucks and people are calling me obtuse. This all happens already.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:33
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people, as in multiple persons, are calling you obtuse because you're being obtuse, op
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Jul 21, 2017 20:34
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I don't know why people are getting all up in arms over something that will guaranteed never ever happen. a simple "lol" would have been a better reply imo
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Jul 21, 2017 20:35
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concrete example:Truga posted:There is absolutely zero, because eos can handle everything. 
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Jul 21, 2017 20:36
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Seriously how do you account for the presence or non-presence of group-wide utility abilities like Trick Attack, Battle Litany, Embolden, damage type debuffs, astrologian cards, defensive cooldowns, and so on and so forth? If your response is just "it doesn't matter lol" then why would they ever bother doing this in the first place?
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Jul 21, 2017 20:37
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Velthice posted:I don't know why people are getting all up in arms over something that will guaranteed never ever happen. a simple "lol" would have been a better reply imo I dunno about the others but I'm trying to run down the clock at work for my last hour of the week.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:37
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I'd be good with the previously mentioned solution of opening AoE abilities earlier for all classes. I'd love to have RA/GB/etc. in Garuda normal, but the cost to dev time with every balance patch seems unsustainable.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:38
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Velthice posted:I don't know why people are getting all up in arms over something that will guaranteed never ever happen. a simple "lol" would have been a better reply imo
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Jul 21, 2017 20:38
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Trasson posted:I dunno about the others but I'm trying to run down the clock at work for my last hour of the week. this thread definitely gets snippier during us work hours and patch downtime, i love it
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Jul 21, 2017 20:38
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Velthice posted:I don't know why people are getting all up in arms over something that will guaranteed never ever happen. a simple "lol" would have been a better reply imo It's fun to speculate. I think LLDR is fine, personally.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:38
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Reiterpallasch posted:concrete example: I never said anything about people not having aoe at 15. Fister Roboto posted:Seriously how do you account for the presence or non-presence of group-wide utility abilities like Trick Attack, Battle Litany, Embolden, damage type debuffs, astrologian cards, defensive cooldowns, and so on and so forth? What matters is, I want a solution, any solution, where people at level 15 have aoe and also all have some kind of rotation to do when synced down. Those things all combined are less of a difference than getting a non-aoe class, and non-aoe classes aren't getting kicked now, so your argument is bad and dumb.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:40
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he was literally talking exclusively about aetherflow and aetherflow spenders and you said it didn't matter lol
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Jul 21, 2017 20:43
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Countblanc posted:I'm not playing BLM right now so I can't comment too much on the state of things, but I played it for the entirety of 2.X and 3.X, the latter of which was apparently difficult/tedious enough for people to hate its subsystem, and more than any other job BLM's potency just loving skyrockets as you learn fights. It's very satisfying. I hated BLM in 3.X as well, but the advent of Enochian/AF/UI tie-in and Triplecase already made it better. The 60s Triplecast and faster F4/B4 casts in 4.05 are icing on the cake. I played 314 BLM on Susano EX a bunch last night and on a perfectly executed run I got as high as like 3.8kdps and saw a 30k crit Foul. Also booping back and forth with Aetherial Manipulation and Between The Lines to dodge mechanics is swag as hell  Yeah I guess as I write this I really do like BLM more than NIN. Right now at least, y'all know me by now.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:45
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Trasson posted:I dunno about the others but I'm trying to run down the clock at work for my last hour of the week. Extremely this. Also I think protecting The Newbie Experience to some degree is important because while the game is turbo baby mode before you hit 30 there are a lot of people who are playing this as one of their first video games. My gf was looking at the price tag to get a copy because when I am playing this game it's my main hobby, it's cheap entertainment, and I won't shut the hell up about chocobos ever.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:46
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i dunno. you're not usually a bad poster so maybe i'm being too harsh on you or i don't understand what you want to do or this is a big huge miaunderstanding and i'm being a butt about it, but i don't think anyone else in this thread has a clear understanding of what you're trying to accomplish, either, in that case
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Jul 21, 2017 20:46
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Reiterpallasch posted:this thread definitely gets snippier during us work hours and patch downtime, i love it Us addicts need our goods or we go crazy, yeah Six more hours until I get home 
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Jul 21, 2017 20:46
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