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See, here's a prime example of what I mentioned awhile back. Accurate view of a problem: low level dungeons aren't that fun because they take awhile to do and we're missing really neat abilities. Proposed solution to that problem: A crazy technical and convoluted balancing method that actively punishes you for going into low level dungeons by making your really neat abilities hit like a wet fart in order for actual new people to have any chance at experiencing it.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:48
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people arent getting kicked now but they would start getting kicked if the disparity was suddenly made a million times worse
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Jul 21, 2017 20:48
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Reiterpallasch posted:this thread definitely gets snippier during us work hours and patch downtime, i love it I'm sorry, it's Friday and I can feel my brain peeling away at the inside of my skull in a desperate bid at freedom. Also I kinda like getting synced for the occasional baby dungeon, and I say that as someone who played Impulse Drive: The Class through Heavensward. It's nice to turn your brain off and just snooze through content once in a while.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:50
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Personally, as a big dense idiot, I get really angry when other people try to do my job.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:52
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SettingSun posted:It's fun to speculate. I think LLDR is fine, personally. Yeah, I've got no issue with it myself. I wouldn't mind some rejiggering for everyone to have AoE stuff earlier but I'm not especially fussed either way. To me, leveling roulette isn't some integral content for the enjoyment of the game. It's SE bribing players with bonus EXP/tomestones/etc. to get people to run dungeons for newer players. If people don't like playing the lower leveled stuff again then it just means the bribe isn't high enough. In fact, increasing the roulette payout would be far more effective at getting people in lower leveled dungeons as well as dramatically less work (and more importantly, testing). I know I've had days where I look at Duty Finder and say "nope, 40%ish of a level is not enough to get me to chance Totorak, I'll just run [insert higher leveled dungeon that results in less EXP but is more fun based pn whichever class it is]".
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Jul 21, 2017 20:53
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[15:52][FC]<Haquer Tal> sid asked me to punch a moogle [15:52][FC]<Haquer Tal> guess I'm going to do that [15:52][FC]<Bacon Marmalade> how dare you [15:52][FC]<Bacon Marmalade> moogles for life [15:53][FC]<Haquer Tal>  [15:53][FC]<Stark Feuer> molgols are an abomination unto this world [15:53][FC]<Bacon Marmalade> wow, so racist [15:53][FC]<Diana Redclaw> you molgoloid [15:54][FC]<Heckfire Cussman> i liked moogles in ff6 when they werent useless fluff things with non functioning limbs [15:54][FC]<Regen Lordian> At least he didn't ask you to beat a baby moogle [15:54][FC]<Stark Feuer> Same [15:54][FC]<Regen Lordian> with another baby moogle
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Jul 21, 2017 20:56
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Fister Roboto posted:Personally, as a big dense idiot, I get really angry when other people try to do my job. I imagine you're always wagging your finger at the thread while posting, like your avatar Not sure if that's a good or bad thing I just had to make the observation
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Jul 21, 2017 20:57
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Fister Roboto posted:Personally, as a big dense idiot, I get really angry when other people try to do my job. I had a tank like this in Haukke manner the other day when I was getting DRG over the 60-61 hump. Was annoyed enough to say something at my pulling and handling of the succubus patrollers despite my being able to deal with them while taking no/negligible damage. I shrugged and let it slide. Then did it again because the first one in the basement came up behind us and would have inconvenienced the healer for a moment if I hadn't obliterated it in the same amount of time. I like to hope that the message got across to that tank... Or alternatively they didn't notice. That's my LLDR story of the day 
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Jul 21, 2017 20:59
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Fister Roboto posted:Personally, as a big dense idiot, I get really angry when other people try to do my job. maybe they'll put on vit accessories
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Jul 21, 2017 21:00
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Reiterpallasch posted:i dunno. you're not usually a bad poster so maybe i'm being too harsh on you or i don't understand what you want to do or this is a big huge miaunderstanding and i'm being a butt about it, but i don't think anyone else in this thread has a clear understanding of what you're trying to accomplish, either, in that case Ehhh, I'd just *really* like to see not get 90% of my keys taken away if I get synced down too far, because I still run ldr regularly. GW2 made the system work, dungeons there level sync like here, but you keep all your skills and traits and poo poo. But people who get synced less, keep more of their stats, and people who don't get synced at all (or get synced up levels) but have anything resembling recent gear will have *higher* stats than you. It's still better to get a level synced person, but the difference is minimal enough that it absolutely doesn't matter, because the thing isn't tuned that way. And again, I'm not saying they try this for raids and poo poo, or for skills beyond level 50 even. Potency curve goes bonkers post level 50, compared to 1-50 so I can see how that'd be a lot more of a pain to manage than be worth. I absolutely think it'd be worth if getting level synced, I didn't literally only have 3 button worth pressing up haukke/brayflox as most classes. Also, the AOE issue, in my opinion, is a different problem altogether, and I agree with the thread here that they need to fix that poo poo asap.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:01
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Truga posted:Ehhh, I'd just *really* like to see not get 90% of my keys taken away if I get synced down too far, because I still run ldr regularly. GW2 made the system work, dungeons there level sync like here, but you keep all your skills and traits and poo poo. But people who get synced less, keep more of their stats, and people who don't get synced at all (or get synced up levels) but have anything resembling recent gear will have *higher* stats than you. It's still better to get a level synced person, but the difference is minimal enough that it absolutely doesn't matter, because the thing isn't tuned that way. I think GW2 isn't really too appropriate a comparison. Its small-group instanced content is a fairly small slice of the game, especially the stuff that scales you down, and everything else is open-world, where you're not really actively deciding who to group with at any point, or really coordinating or paying too much attention to what others are doing at all. Believe me, I'd love to have all of my skills when scaled down. I'd love it. But I can understand why they don't do it. That said, if they're never going to, they really need to find a way to smooth out the curve for some jobs, because while every job is less fun at lower levels, some have it way worse than others.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:03
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That's why I think it's appropriate for ldr. You get matched with 3 randos, and it just about doesn't matter what they're doing. If it was any other content, I'd agree, but for <50 ldr? ehhhhh.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:06
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90% of my problems with being synced down could be fixed by giving every DPS AOE at 15.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:06
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WrightOfWay posted:90% of my problems with being synced down could be fixed by giving every DPS AOE at 15. You could give every class in the game AoE at level 1, and 80% of people still wouldn't use it. (They should totally do that though)
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Jul 21, 2017 21:11
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Well, I could see the "it doesn't matter, it's lldr" argument blowing up in everyone's faces the next time a relic step requires level synced FATES or another Yokai Watch style event rolls around.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:13
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Truga posted:GW2 made the system work, GW2 should never be used as an example in how to do dungeons.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:14
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Mordiceius posted:GW2 should never be used as an example in how to do dungeons. Which is why I haven't said that.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:15
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EponymousMrYar posted:See, here's a prime example of what I mentioned awhile back. Perhaps there is no way to solve the problem of low level dungeons not being fun to rerun because it just isn't fun to regularly run old content. Aside from the four 1.0 dungeons, all the dungeons are various levels of good to great when leveling through them initially, but going back always sucks and I don't think there's a fix for it. (Nor does there necessarily need to be, aside from giving ASTs gravity at 50 instead of 52  )
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Jul 21, 2017 21:16
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Anyone who says "it's LLDR it doesn't matter" forgets that the content in it is 80% of your group game until level 50. That last 20% has guildhests, FATEs no one does, and doing levequests as a party. Those three are all punchlines in one or more ways, mind. If you care at all about the game's health and having a steady stream of new players, then LLDR is something that matters a whole lot.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:18
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Truga posted:Which is why I haven't said that. Guild Wars 2 is a completely different system though. You have a limited skillset forever and there is no holy trinity when it comes to class roles. It's apples and oranges.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:18
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gw2 dungeons were literally cleared with three buttons: a thief spamming stealth, your class spamming their auto attack, and the classes spamming their shield or survival ability. a level twelve class in ffxiv probably has as many buttons as a gw2 class. also, lldrs are boring but if they're taking substantially longer than normal dungeons your poo poo is hosed.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:18
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i ended up in gubal hm the other day and nope, blasting from the second to third boss in a single megapull is still fun. god bless.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:18
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LLDR is boring because it simulates leveling, an inherently boring experience. I never thought (lack of) aoe was a big deal. It would be a welcome addition to be sure, but not poo poo-must-be-fixed as it is.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:19
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Any expansion that truly fixes 1-49 will also be incredibly feature-sparse for veteran players so they're kinda hosed either way
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Jul 21, 2017 21:20
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Trasson posted:Anyone who says "it's LLDR it doesn't matter" forgets that the content in it is 80% of your group game until level 50. That last 20% has guildhests, FATEs no one does, and doing levequests as a party. Personally, I think the argument moreso comes down to whether it is or isn't "fun"/"okay" for the system to take skills away from you when synced down and how you fix that. I think the closest way to fix it is as Fister said: completely revamping the order and levels in which skills are distributed. Perhaps it should be that by level 15, all classes should have enough skills to form a basic rotation, instead of situations like where lancers are a 2 button class for almost 30 levels. Maybe it should be that by level 15 you have 5-6 skills that can be used in a proper (if basic) rotation. But then you may end up with skill droughts where classes go 20+ levels without receiving new skills, or perhaps they only receive a new skill every 10 levels.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:23
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The easy thing to do would be to swap a skill gain on all classes to give them access to an aoe move sooner but one thing they've repeatedly clung to is not particularly liking AOE dungeon clearing so it's unlikely. ASTs everywhere are very sad about this. (Including me.) But it isn't really that big of a deal.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:24
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:also, lldrs are boring but if they're taking substantially longer than normal dungeons your poo poo is hosed. My lldrs are fast 99% of the time because I try to queue with aoe classes and then we pull 3-4 groups in tamtams or whatever and it's cleared in 12 minutes. I just very rarely queue for it solo now, because I know I'll get some lovely drgs, nins and monks <30 and then it's "spam <x> for 20 minutes", depending on which class I'm leveling. So yeah, the main issue is aoe. Please fix yoship. Getting people familiar with it earlier can only be good. mistaya posted:The easy thing to do would be to swap a skill gain on all classes to give them access to an aoe move sooner but one thing they've repeatedly clung to is not particularly liking AOE dungeon clearing so it's unlikely. I think it's less they don't like AOE and more they don't like big pulls. They keep making aoe for small pulls better, after all.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:24
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Mordiceius posted:Personally, I think the argument moreso comes down to whether it is or isn't "fun"/"okay" for the system to take skills away from you when synced down and how you fix that. They actually did fix Impulse Drive hell, specifically, with the Stormblood potency changes Lancer is a three button class until 26
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Jul 21, 2017 21:25
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3 of us went in to sneak a lldr last night in dismal darkhold before the servers went down, we had 20 minutes and almost didn't make it because the ninja who joined us used a single target rotation on the first megapull where you grab like 25 mobs, then used death blossom on the boss.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:27
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Reiterpallasch posted:3 of us went in to sneak a lldr last night in dismal darkhold before the servers went down, we had 20 minutes and almost didn't make it because the ninja who joined us used a single target rotation on the first megapull where you grab like 25 mobs, then used death blossom on the boss. Well, did you offer him any advice or did you just sit there and think "Heh, lovely pub ninja"?
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Jul 21, 2017 21:27
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we did! my shitposter persona is only for this thread! like a year+ of experience teaches us all that your opinions are going to be garbage a priori, but people i meet through duty finder i've probably never met before!
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Jul 21, 2017 21:29
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Reiterpallasch posted:we did! my shitposter persona is only for this thread! like a year+ of experience teaches us all that your opinions are going to be garbage a priori, but people i meet through duty finder i've probably never met before! Ah. Rip then. I know that the thread likes to bash on the idea of pubbie players that are half brain dead and are hostile to any advice, but I've honestly rarely if ever met any like that. Most just don't know any better and are very receptive to advice. A handful are just not very good and though they'll take your advice, it just won't help. Majority of the hostile players I've met have been ones that are actually already at level cap, so they feel they already are perfect at their class and are immune to advice.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:34
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My experience with the extremely bad players in the starting three dungeons is complete silence when giving advice, and not changing their play I assume a lot of them are children or non-English speakers
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Jul 21, 2017 21:36
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for the record, their response to advice was pretty hostile and something along the lines of "you try playing with a controller with a toddler on your lap," but honest to god, we tried e: i've actually had really good response to advice from literal sprouts in the <20 dungeons, idk
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Jul 21, 2017 21:36
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To be honest I've basically met a genuinely terrible person in dungeons basically never. I mean in terms of bad mechanics I have but usually they either are receptive to advice or have a reason why they're doing poorly. (i.e: a newbie tank who is genuinely not comfortable with big pulls or a healer who doesn't feel they can keep up with it.) The salt only seems to exist in meaningful quantities in extreme/savage content.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:37
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Reiterpallasch posted:for the record, their response to advice was pretty hostile and something along the lines of "you try playing with a controller with a toddler on your lap," but honest to god, we tried Try this and report back.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:39
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Reiterpallasch posted:i ended up in gubal hm the other day and nope, blasting from the second to third boss in a single megapull is still fun. god bless. I spammed it to level sch from 60 to 61 and did an extra run just for fun, gubal hm is in my top 5 dungeons ever.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:41
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maybe dont queue into instanced content in that case, idk
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Jul 21, 2017 21:41
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Fister Roboto posted:It absolutely would not be that easy. SWTOR somehow manages.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:42
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Wait, did swtor get level syncs?
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Jul 21, 2017 21:45
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