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qkkl posted:Peaceful coexistence is impossible with fundamentalist Muslims. Israel could withdraw to the 1948 lines and Palestinians would still want all Jews out of Israel. There would need to be a massive educational campaign where Palestinian children are not taught about Jihad and how bad Israel and Jews are. Then in several generations Palestinians might tolerate Israel. Until that happens Palestinians will need to be violently suppressed to keep Israelis safe. I'd like to hear about the Simulacron world you have built to test this hypothesis. Regardless, I offer you the following perspective: "the Israelis need to be violently suppressed to keep the Palestinians safe."
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Jul 22, 2017 23:46
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Cugel the Clever posted:Just because rabid anti-Palestinian folk keep repeating this doesn't mean it's true. All I'm doing is going by the 2005 call. If you support the right of return, you support the destruction of Israel. There's no way to interpret it than trying to reverse 1948. It would result in mass violence and ethnic cleansing, and it would result in a one state with an Arab majority. quote:I support it strongly, yet I, like most of who believe that international pressure must be applied to Israel in order to end its occupation rather than its existence. Do some anti-Semites latch onto these otherwise valiant efforts against the oppressor to further their own goals? Sure, and they are contemptible. BDS is not unilaterally focused on the occupation. It's focused on 1948, not 1967. quote:No more than you, however—your consistent resort to such a strawman of your opponents' position is despicable. You might merely be indoctrinated into such fear that you believe any lie is justified if it serves to safeguard the occupation or you generally harbor hatred against the Palestinian people in your heart. Given your persistence, I'd wager the latter. It's not a strawman, it's literally what the 2005 call to BDS says. You're loving responsible for the logical conclusions of your policies. If you support requiring a driver's license to vote, you support disenfranchising black people. If you support the right of return, you support destroying Israel. I've repeatedly said I support the peace process and want to dismantle the majority of settlements. Agnosticnixie posted:
If calls to boycott aren't proportionate to actual human rights abuses (where are the boycotts of Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, etc...), then either in the most charitable reading, we can only boycott states that are politically weak and feasible to boycott against. In the less charitable reading, we're boycotting an ethnic group that has been the disproportionate scapegoat throughout human history.
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Jul 23, 2017 00:10
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Kim Jong Il posted:and it would result in a one state with an Arab majority.
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Jul 23, 2017 00:18
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Whether or not you think that would be a good outcome, it would represent the destruction of Israel as a distinct Jewish state and a Jewish majority state. It's fundamentally a response to 1948, not 1967. It almost certainly would lead to mass ethnic cleansing and hundreds of thousands dead. Not that it ever has a chance of happening, given current geopolitics and the unmitigated failure of BDS to do anything besides cancel a few concerts and academic conferences.
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Jul 23, 2017 00:21
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Cat Mattress posted:I'd like to hear about the Simulacron world you have built to test this hypothesis. That perspective is correct for the extremist Zionist Israelis who actually want to genocide the Palestinians, and Israel does suppress them.
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Jul 23, 2017 00:22
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Kim Jong Il posted:If you support the right of return, you support destroying Israel. Kim Jong Il posted:it would represent the destruction of Israel as a distinct Jewish state and a Jewish majority state These are two different things, fucko.
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Jul 23, 2017 00:40
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Kim Jong Il, do you value Israel's ethnic purity over its future as a democratic state?
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Jul 23, 2017 01:02
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Kim Jong Il posted:Whether or not you think that would be a good outcome, it would represent the destruction of Israel as a distinct Jewish state and a Jewish majority state. It's fundamentally a response to 1948, not 1967. It almost certainly would lead to mass ethnic cleansing and hundreds of thousands dead. Not that it ever has a chance of happening, given current geopolitics and the unmitigated failure of BDS to do anything besides cancel a few concerts and academic conferences. Are you trying to say that racial apartheid is a fundamental part of being Jewish? Because that's pretty antisemitic
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Jul 23, 2017 01:12
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I thought it was a given among anti-Zionists that Israel was an ethnocentric state? It is, but most states outside of the US, Canada, Australia, etc... are. Whether or not it's a good idea that these exist is open for debate. I actually prefer open borders everywhere. My position on this point of BDS is actually the exact same as Norman Finkelstein's - that it's a disingenuous campaign to destroy the state of Israel. Noam Chomsky who as a philosopher understands the concept of a type error, has similar views, and similarly acknowledges that to call the military conflict between two separate countries "Apartheid" is both inaccurate, and begging the question by assuming that they are actually one country instead of two distinct entities that will be permanently distinct moving forwards. To claim otherwise is both irredentist, and causes direct harm to attempts to end the occupation. It's very common in progressive circles that oppressed ethnic groups get special treatment; there's wide disparagement of concepts like color blind approaches to racism. I want universal open borders, but a Jewish state is indistinguishable from any other state that has citizenship requirements. There's no consistent way to criticize Israeli policy here without criticizing nearly every other country in existence. 420 Gank Mid posted:Are you trying to say that racial apartheid is a fundamental part of being Jewish? It's not Apartheid, but ethnic based colonialism actually is a pretty big part of Jewish theology. Just as massive imperialism is central to Islamic theology. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 23, 2017 01:13
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Kim Jong Il posted:I thought it was a given among anti-Zionists that Israel was an ethnocentric state? It is, but most states outside of the US, Canada, Australia, etc... are. Whether or not it's a good idea that these exist is open for debate. Is it now? Who exactly is debating the merits of a racial caste system these days other than yourself? Kim Jong Il posted:
is there a  but for nazis?
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Jul 23, 2017 01:20
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qkkl posted:That perspective is correct for the extremist Zionist Israelis who actually want to genocide the Palestinians, and Israel does suppress them. By giving them ministerial positions?
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Jul 23, 2017 01:22
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Ytlaya posted:This is the sort of opinion that's hosed up to the extent that it's almost beyond comment. On one hand you have Actual Apartheid resulting in huge amounts of suffering and death, and on the other you have a holy site being restricted in a way that may be wrong but isn't causing actual material harm (and it's not like Israel couldn't force a change if they wanted, as they did with the current restrictions/metal detectors). It is causing material harm in that the status quo is clearly discriminatory, but is set up because of threats of mass violence if there is not Islamic privilege and supremacy at the site. And it's causing mass harm in that we see it being exploited now by Palestinian ethnonationalists, over largely benign and likely temporary actions. That's gotten people killed, and Arafat similarly pre-manufactured a response to Ariel Sharon visiting the site 17 years ago to spark the second Intifada, which left thousands dead, destroyed Palestinian economy and quality of life, and eventually led to Gaza being turned into rubble. So it sure as poo poo loving matters. Plus, if we're actually in the business of prioritizing conflict by actual harm, that means that the international response of largely benign disinterest to the Palestinians in practice over the past 50 years was largely correct. There were actual serious geopolitical crises going on, so it was wholly appropriate to not prioritize a simmering pot where occasionally it would flare up. The Israelis aren't engaging it actual genocide, which means that no one will ever act because there will always be bigger problems to focus on, so supporters of Palestinians in turn wildly exaggerate from accurately reporting that there are bad things going in most cases, to disingenuous and lying hyperbole like saying that the 2002 battle of Jenin was another Stalingrad and hundreds of civilians died.
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Jul 23, 2017 01:27
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Kim Jong Il posted:I thought it was a given among anti-Zionists that Israel was an ethnocentric state? It is, but most states outside of the US, Canada, Australia, etc... are. Whether or not it's a good idea that these exist is open for debate. I actually prefer open borders everywhere. The US, Canada, and Australia are all ethnocentric states. In order for a state to not be ethnocentric it would need to consist of multiple non-majority ethnic groups with even amounts of power that peacefully coexist. I would consider Brazil to be non-ethnocentric.
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Jul 23, 2017 01:29
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420 Gank Mid posted:
The Tanakh literally has stories about Hebrews invading Israel and pushing out other tribes. God promises Israel to the Hebrews and demands purity from foreign influences. There's a party in Israel right now called Jewish Home that's centered on implementing this as actual policy. This is not what the majority of Jews believe given that a big portion of the Talmud is why you should ignore certain Tanakh passages, and actually the majority of Jews, including Israelis, don't give a poo poo about religion. The fact is there's enough material to at least give Jewish Home an argument that they're representing "true Judaism." My position isn't that Jews are bad or that ethnic cleansing is good. I have not remotely made any criticism towards Jews, and in fact the opposite, arguing that the policies of Jewish Home are consistent with the tenets of their religion. I just reject those policies and tenets. qkkl posted:The US, Canada, and Australia are all ethnocentric states. In order for a state to not be ethnocentric it would need to consist of multiple non-majority ethnic groups with even amounts of power that peacefully coexist. I would consider Brazil to be non-ethnocentric. Eh it's a fair argument, you can modify my statement to be less ethnocentric. But barring cuckolded Trump types, we don't care for instance about an Asian immigrant, we largely encourage it. If you're in Europe, there's probably a nativist party like Lega Nord going around being racist, many have citizenship rules based on ancestral ties to the country. And most importantly, they have birthright citizenship, as opposed to having open borders, or some sort of sci-fi, Peter Singer citizenship lottery of everyone on Earth including the billions of sustenance farmers. Just by the nature of being born in the west instead of say, sub-Saharan African, an infant has already unfairly hit the lottery. Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 01:33
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Kim Jong Il posted:The Tanakh literally has stories about Hebrews invading Israel and pushing out other tribes. God promises Israel to the Hebrews and demands purity from foreign influences. There's a party in Israel right now called Jewish Home that's centered on implementing this as actual policy. This is not what the majority of Jews believe given that a big portion of the Talmud is why you should ignore certain Tanakh passages, and actually the majority of Jews, including Israelis, don't give a poo poo about religion. The fact is there's enough material to at least give Jewish Home an argument that they're representing "true Judaism." Hrmm, this seems oddly familiar. Which other minor sect in the region is using an incredibly narrow and reactionary interpretation of a popular religion to subvert the public perceptions of the larger religious family? If only there was some way to tell the tiny yet murderous minority apart from the much larger and otherwise sane majority. Oh well, guess we have to treat them all the same and refuse to view the situation with any nuance at all. It's almost like religious extremist xenophobes are....bad....even if they say they're the same religion as YOU!
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Jul 23, 2017 01:37
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I'd actually argue that Jewish Home and Hamas/Nusra/Hezbollah/etc... (not Daesh of course) are accurate representations of their religions, which is why their religions should be ignored and dismissed.
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Jul 23, 2017 01:39
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Kim Jong Il posted:I'd actually argue that Jewish Home and Hamas/Nusra/Hezbollah/etc... (not Daesh of course) are accurate representations of their religions, which is why their religions should be ignored and dismissed. Yes, let's "dismiss" all members of this religion because a small minority is bad.
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Jul 23, 2017 01:46
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There will not be a happy ending for the palestinians before they disarm and commit to giving up violence.
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Jul 23, 2017 01:50
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hakimashou posted:There will not be a happy ending for the palestinians before they disarm and commit to giving up violence. You are a naive idiot if you think that lying down in the street and watching your home bulldozed by settlers is a happy ending
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Jul 23, 2017 01:59
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hakimashou posted:There will not be a happy ending for the palestinians before they disarm and commit to giving up violence. But they better not try anything uppity, like peaceful protest! That has to be met with the appropriate response, i.e. lethal force. Just, pure, unadulterated passiveness will solve things there.
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Jul 23, 2017 02:30
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10 years and 14 words later, more things change, the more rahowa.GaussianCopula posted:Instead of working to a peaceful solution (e.g. integrating Palestine refugees into other Arab countries, like Germany and Poland did with their displaced people after WW2) they keep the Palestine people as pawns in their anti Semitic campaign. Kim Jong Il posted:All I'm doing is going by the 2005 call. If you support the right of return, you support the destruction of Israel. There's no way to interpret it than trying to reverse 1948. It would result in mass violence and ethnic cleansing, and it would result in a one state with an Arab majority. GaussianCopula posted:Probably the same reason this particular religious group celebrates people who blow themselves and other civilians, including children and the elderly up? hakimashou posted:There will not be a happy ending for the palestinians before they disarm and commit to giving up violence. Kim Jong Il posted:If calls to boycott aren't proportionate to actual human rights abuses (where are the boycotts of Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, etc...), then either in the most charitable reading, we can only boycott states that are politically weak and feasible to boycott against. In the less charitable reading, we're boycotting an ethnic group that has been the disproportionate scapegoat throughout human history.
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Jul 23, 2017 04:00
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Sneakster posted:...Do you know know where I can score some white phosphorous? Just out of curiosity, not to use on civilians or anything. qkkl posted:Certain tools used in religious ceremony can't be taken into the mosque, so it's a restriction on religion in a way. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 23, 2017 08:27
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Lady Morgaga posted:Eh just get a knife and stab elderly jew or a child. You know the hero way. Not like those cowardly You and I have a lot in common, thick as thieves we are. Does your military have war criminals too? We call them heroes here, hell, even our secretary of defense is a hero! (Important note, its department of defense, not war, that would be less prudent.)
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Jul 23, 2017 09:07
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Zionists might wanna reconsider this whole strategy of blaming one side for a mutual cycle of violent retaliation, especially when that side is plainly in a position of inferiority to their purported victims, without democratically elected or legitimate representatives who could be negotiated with. Supposing you wanna convince anyone aside from yourselves, blaming the Mau Mau for all violence in Kenya doesn't really convince anyone that it should remain a British colony who doesn't already believe in the righteous burden of the white man to civilise the heathens. If Zionists go on with this arrogant victim-blaming of Palestinians whenever violence againts Israelis inevitably occurs as a justification of Israeli colonialism and oppression of the Palestinians, you're going to lose the public argument. It's a bullshit argument and as the propaganda of Israeli victimhood in all cases of conflict becomes ever more unconvincing as Israeli refusal to negotiate or make peace with the Palestinians becomes ever more clear to everyone, you're going to get told so eventually. The Palestinians aren't going to buy into the claim that they're the oppressors against Israel, and neither is anyone else. Demanding 'recognition of the right to exist' doesn't really sound very convincing when it's Israel demanding the UN to refuse admitting Palestine as an observing member among the nations. Demanding that the Palestiniance 'disarm and commit to giving up violence' doesn't convince anyone either when peaceful protests are always dispersed with violence, tear-gas and bullets. But I'm sure that you've all heard this before, so I ask you why do you think it is, that you never seem to be able to win over anyone outside of Israel with your arguments? Why do you think it is that Israeli policies are increasingly being condemned even by your nominal allies in the West? Do you really think this whole thing isn't going to lead you to the same place as South Africa?
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Jul 23, 2017 09:12
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I think one thing that factors strongly into opinions on this issue is that people often view violence committed by an organized military differently than violence committed by individuals or smaller groups. They have a stronger emotional reaction to the idea of a Palestinian running into a crowd and knifing some people than they do to a bomb being dropped in Gaza, even if the latter kills orders of magnitude more people. A military also diffuses responsibility throughout its entire organization (and the nation's government). If a Palestinian commits a terrorist act or some Hamas militants launch a rocket, you can point at the perpetrators and say "these people are morally responsible", but if Israeli soldiers shoot some Palestinians or drop bombs on them, the moral responsibility is spread up the chain of command and it's harder for people to directly judge a specific person as being "evil" (unless a soldier does something really beyond the pale). Racism of course also factors into things - Westerners recoil more at the image of a Palestinian militant than they do an Israeli soldier (especially given all the IDF propaganda many Americans are exposed to, like the memes about sexy Israeli soldier women, etc).
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Jul 23, 2017 09:48
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Ytlaya posted:unless a soldier does something really beyond the pale like say, executing a restrained prisoner on videotape?
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Jul 23, 2017 09:54
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:like say, executing a restrained prisoner on videotape? Was the prisoner human or Palestinian?
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Jul 23, 2017 10:40
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hakimashou posted:There will not be a happy ending for the palestinians before they disarm and commit to giving up violence. Cugel the Clever posted:Edit: Winning hearts and minds: 
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Jul 23, 2017 11:18
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I wish all you pro-israel posters would get the opportunity to spend a single day as a palestinian and then get back to me. Maybe watching your wife miscarry at a checkpoint for literally no reason, or having your kids be forced to slap their father in the face possibly may cause a change of heart. Either way gently caress off and stop posting here, you contribute nothing.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:02
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Ultramega posted:I wish all you pro-israel posters would get the opportunity to spend a single day as a palestinian and then get back to me. Maybe watching your wife miscarry at a checkpoint for literally no reason, or having your kids be forced to slap their father in the face possibly may cause a change of heart. Either way gently caress off and stop posting here, you contribute nothing. Maybe you should spend a day as a Israeli, getting the message that a whole branch of your family was knifed down as they slept while repeatedly getting shelled by Palestinian rockets and after being attacked by your Arab neighbors multiple times with the goal of destroying your country and driving your and your family back into the sea. For extra immersion, please imagine your grandparents and the brothers and sisters of your parents being holocaust victims.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:13
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Oh good, I was worried that you might not make it here in time to raise the level of debate.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:16
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GaussianCopula posted:Maybe you should spend a day as a Israeli, getting the message that a whole branch of your family was knifed down as they slept while repeatedly getting shelled by Palestinian rockets and after being attacked by your Arab neighbors multiple times with the goal of destroying your country and driving your and your family back into the sea. For extra immersion, please imagine your grandparents and the brothers and sisters of your parents being holocaust victims. This all applies to me and I'm not a shithead like you, gently caress off you miserable waste of space.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:18
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Crawl back under a rock you racist gently caress. Actual israelis post here and they can talk for themselves just fine last time I checked. Also lol your post basically reads like you're writing a pulp novel and you're like gently caress it I'll throw every single trope i can think of even if it doesn't make sense in viz. "I'LL BE BACK LATER I'VE GOTTA GO DRUNK DRIVING TO MY AFFAIR BUT NOT BEFORE I SMOKE THIS JAZZ CIGARETTE."
Ultramega fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 12:39
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My family suffered in the Holocaust, ergo I get to brutally oppress subhuman Palestinian scum, said the Nazi German.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:58
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it feels a little too on the nose that a german right winger sees people being thrown into ghettos for the crime of impure blood + being on land their betters want, then retroactively justifying it by proclaiming the untermenschen represent an existential threat, and says "hell yes, this is my jam"
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Jul 23, 2017 15:54
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GaussianCopula posted:So does the BDS movement request the Arab countries to respect the rights of Jews? Do Cancer charities invest in Anti-malaria treatment? No, it's not what they do. That your qualification for how to view someone is "Are they trying to protect Israel over all other concerns" and nothing else shows the bias in your point of view. Secondly, Palestinian's having a special unique refugee status is an urban myth that is thoroughly discredited. To quote UNRWA: "Palestine refugees are entitled to a just and lasting solution to their plight. In the absence of -- and pending the realisation of -- such a solution, it stands to reason that their status as refugees will remain. Questions raised about the passing of refugee status through generations stem from a lack of understanding of the international protection regime. These questions serve only to distract from the need to address the real reasons for the protracted Palestinian refugee situation, namely the absence of negotiated solution to the underlying political issues. UNHCR‘s Handbook on Procedures and Criteria for determining Refugee Status provides in paragraph 184: "If the head of a family meets the criteria of the definition, [for refugee status] his dependants are normally granted refugee status according to the principle of family unity." ... As made clear in the criteria for derivative status above, in all cases, refugees and their descendants retain the status of refugees until that status lapses through the achievement of a just and lasting solution. Again, I will allow published UNHCR documents to speak for themselves." If you are so concerned about the Palestinian refugees, perhaps you should be supported their right to return rather than trying to deny it with knee-jerk reactions based on stuff you read off of Facebook? GaussianCopula posted:Maybe you should spend a day as a Israeli, getting the message that a whole branch of your family was knifed down as they slept while repeatedly getting shelled by Palestinian rockets and after being attacked by your Arab neighbors multiple times with the goal of destroying your country and driving your and your family back into the sea. For extra immersion, please imagine your grandparents and the brothers and sisters of your parents being holocaust victims. The goal of pretty much all Palestinian posters in this thread is a just and lasting peace where both sides can learn to live together without committing war crimes against each other. Meanwhile there are multiple Israel posters promoting war crimes against Palestinians based on racial hatred. There is a very big different in regards to which side needs more empathy. Not only that, but literally every single Palestinian is a victim of Israel war crimes. The same is not true for Israelies suffering from palestinian terrorism. Odds are if I had a 'day in the life' type experience as an Israeli, I would not be effected by Palestinian terrorism. Terrorism against Israelis should be condemned for what it is, not based on inflated version that fits your need to make it comparable to what the Palestinians suffer. Doing so is a disservice to everyone involved.
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Jul 23, 2017 16:18
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All this talk of right of return is as if in actuality Palestinian negotiatiors demand an unlimited and open ended right of return when in fact in negotiations they've accepted watering it down to almost nobody, and Israel still treats that as an unreasonable demand.
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Jul 23, 2017 16:57
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Kim Jong Il posted:It's not a strawman, it's literally what the 2005 call to BDS says. You're loving responsible for the logical conclusions of your policies. If you support requiring a driver's license to vote, you support disenfranchising black people. If you support the right of return, you support destroying Israel. I agree with you that a full right of return is a non-starter for negotiations but one definitely does not have to agree with every tenet of a movement to go along with it; it's perfectly reasonable to support BDS if you believe it will bring Israel to the negotiating table (apologies if you were not in fact implying otherwise). It makes sense for Americans to want to boycott Israel because of the influence wielded in the American system by AIPAC and the like. You think there wouldn't be a backlash if China started buying off politicians at a hypothetical ACPAC? There would be. Just look at the fight we're having over Russia. hakimashou posted:There will not be a happy ending for the palestinians before they disarm and commit to giving up violence. I knew I recognized this from somewhere!
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Jul 23, 2017 18:28
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team overhead smash posted:Do Cancer charities invest in Anti-malaria treatment? No, it's not what they do. That your qualification for how to view someone is "Are they trying to protect Israel over all other concerns" and nothing else shows the bias in your point of view. If Palestinians want peace, the first step is to recognize Israel's right to exist. If you treat people like non-humans, then expect to be treated like a non-human. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 23, 2017 18:29
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qkkl posted:If Palestinians want peace, the first step is to recognize Israel's right to exist. If you treat people like non-humans, then expect to be treated like a non-human.
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Jul 23, 2017 18:33
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