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GaussianCopula posted:Would the Palestinians accept a state that consists of all of the West Bank except for Jerusalem and Gaza, with no right of return and no special transit rights trough sovereign Israeli territory? Has anyone who matters actually proposed this? Probably not, which is why the conflict will continue.
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Jul 24, 2017 08:42
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GaussianCopula posted:Would the Palestinians accept a state that consists of all of the West Bank except for Jerusalem and Gaza, with no right of return and no special transit rights trough sovereign Israeli territory? do you think israel would willingly give over land with great agricultural potential and access to the jordan river? do you think the problem is uppity palestinians being stubborn and not accepting offers from the generous israelis?
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Jul 24, 2017 08:52
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GaussianCopula posted:Would the Palestinians accept a state that consists of all of the West Bank except for Jerusalem and Gaza, with no right of return and no special transit rights trough sovereign Israeli territory? Actually there's a real chance they would.
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Jul 24, 2017 09:08
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Israel is just waiting for another war to use as an excuse to grab more land. Maybe installing metal detectors to increase tensions is actually good for Israel.
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Jul 24, 2017 09:11
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Fututor Magnus posted:do you think israel would willingly give over land with great agricultural potential and access to the jordan river? For peace, absolutely.
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Jul 24, 2017 09:37
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BattleMoose posted:For peace, absolutely. well then you continue to live up to your red text, smh
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Jul 24, 2017 09:47
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Autism Sneaks posted:well then you continue to live up to your red text, smh Oh no, what an absolutely horrible person I am. Literally the worst of the worst. So abhorrent that I should in fact kill myself and leave the world in a better place.
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Jul 24, 2017 09:54
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BattleMoose posted:Oh no, what an absolutely horrible person I am. Literally the worst of the worst. So abhorrent that I should in fact kill myself and leave the world in a better place. You could just stop posting in D&D which would probably be easier than killing yourself and definitely easier than not being a dumb loving retard. Your prerogative, though
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Jul 24, 2017 10:01
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BattleMoose posted:Oh no, what an absolutely horrible person I am. Literally the worst of the worst. So abhorrent that I should in fact kill myself and leave the world in a better place. instead of being dramatic why don't you explain why you think israel will act contrarily to how they've acted for all of their history and hand over land that's very economically useful to them? why do you think that the israelis are the ones who want peace rather than squeezing out every bit of economic value out of palestinian land as every colonizer has wanted to do throughout history?
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Jul 24, 2017 10:03
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Fututor Magnus posted:instead of being dramatic why don't you explain why you think israel will act contrarily to how they've acted for all of their history and hand over land that's very economically useful to them? The first time I tried to participate in this thread I earned this avatar. Now I make one comment and straight to verbal abuse. Maybe Ill try again in the future but for the meantime I'll leave you guys to it.
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Jul 24, 2017 10:08
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Orange Devil posted:Actually there's a real chance they would. So if they would, why are they not offering that publicly to Israel. At that point Israel would have to accept it, because they have no legitimate reason to refuse it that would hold up before the court of public (world) opinion.
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Jul 24, 2017 10:10
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BattleMoose posted:The first time I tried to participate in this thread I earned this avatar. Now I make one comment and straight to verbal abuse. Try making wise use of your time in self-imposed exile: read a book cover to back for once, maybe shop around for a backbone
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Jul 24, 2017 10:14
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BattleMoose posted:For peace, absolutely. It turns out all the facts and evidence point to the contrary.
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Jul 24, 2017 10:17
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GaussianCopula posted:So if they would, why are they not offering that publicly to Israel. At that point Israel would have to accept it, because they have no legitimate reason to refuse it that would hold up before the court of public (world) opinion. Probably because every time in the past the Palestinians have acceded to any Israeli demands the Israeli's have immediately demanded more while declaring the Palestinian position to be terrorism?
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Jul 24, 2017 10:20
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GaussianCopula posted:So if they would, why are they not offering that publicly to Israel. At that point Israel would have to accept it, because they have no legitimate reason to refuse it that would hold up before the court of public (world) opinion. Err, why would 'legitimacy' have anything to do with Israeli refusal to negotiate. The colonies are illegitimate by all international standards, and that hasn't stopped Israel from building more 'settlements'. Besides that, Israeli refusal to grant Palestinians autonomy in the West Bank even in the areas where they are a majority tells us all we need to know about Israeli aims when it comes to West Bank. Israel intends to colonize the area and drive Palestinians out, and their every policy is aimed at achieving just that. Of course, we should totally grant the Bibi the benefit of doubt when it comes to peace. He's such an ameniable and peaceful man, after all.
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Jul 24, 2017 10:21
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BattleMoose posted:Oh no, what an absolutely horrible person I am. Literally the worst of the worst. So abhorrent that I should in fact kill myself and leave the world in a better place.
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Jul 24, 2017 10:22
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I'm sure Netanyahu actually wants peace, which is why his government includes Avigdor Lieberman and a couple Jewish Home ministers.
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Jul 24, 2017 11:06
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https://twitter.com/Elizrael/status/889441225404755968
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Jul 24, 2017 13:28
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Orange Devil posted:Actually there's a real chance they would. I can't see the Palestinians accepting it, the loss of Jerusalem and possibly Al Aqsa is massive, nor can I see why it would be broached seeing as Gaza is the only bit of Palestinian territory that Israel seems like it would be happy to do away with.
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Jul 24, 2017 13:33
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It's a stupid hypothetical, Israel has never - and will never - offered anything like the whole West Bank (I'm assuming with 1967 borders)
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Jul 24, 2017 13:44
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qkkl posted:Israel is just waiting for another war to use as an excuse to grab more land. Maybe installing metal detectors to increase tensions is actually good for Israel.
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Jul 24, 2017 13:54
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GaussianCopula posted:So if they would, why are they not offering that publicly to Israel. At that point Israel would have to accept it, because they have no legitimate reason to refuse it that would hold up before the court of public (world) opinion. The Palestinians have made any number of generous offers to Israel in the past that have been refused by Israel, only for Israel to argue it's the Palestinians demanding too much that means no peace can be had. World opinion also means nothing here, the two peoples are not engaged in a popularity contest.
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Jul 24, 2017 14:04
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What the position the Zionists itt right now are arguing for amounts to is this: the Palestinians should unconditionally surrender and let Israel handle them as it thinks best. At least that way there would be peace. Refusal go do this makes you a warlike intransigent.
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Jul 24, 2017 14:08
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In case any of you had any doubt that Israel is an apartheid ISIS regime:- https://twitter.com/edokonrad/status/889456955370217473
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Jul 24, 2017 14:53
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Oh yay, another round of ethnic cleansing.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:21
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Disinterested posted:The Palestinians have made any number of generous offers to Israel in the past that have been refused by Israel, only for Israel to argue it's the Palestinians demanding too much that means no peace can be had. World opinion also means nothing here, the two peoples are not engaged in a popularity contest. When did Palestinians ever offer to give up control over Jerusalem or abandon their right of return claim, can you please link sources?
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Jul 24, 2017 19:06
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GaussianCopula posted:When did Palestinians ever offer to give up control over Jerusalem or abandon their right of return claim, can you please link sources? Can you articulate why these are reasonable demands that the Palestinians should acquiese to on grounds other than "the Israelis have them at gunpoint"? Jerusalem is the cultural and religious capital of the Palestinians, Israeli authority over which even the US doesn't recognize, and the UN has reaffirmed their right of return every year for the past 60+. Why should the Israeli priority of a majority-Jewish ethnostate supercede the internationally-recognized rights of the land's indigenous people?
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Jul 24, 2017 19:40
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GaussianCopula posted:When did Palestinians ever offer to give up control over Jerusalem or abandon their right of return claim, can you please link sources? Palestinian negotiators have never pushed for a right to return as it's normally understood (e.g. a right for all refugees to return), only ever at most arguing for a portion of refugees to return. This is oftentimes a very low, sometimes symbolic level, that is even lower than Israel's benchmarks for what it will accept. Two separate journalists released books after speaking to the people on both sides of negotiations which got praise from the Israeli and Palestinian sides for their accuracy. Clayton E Swisher's The Truth About Camp David states: "...Arafat has been willing to accept a limited right of return, in all liklihood within the symbolic strictures of "family reunification" entertained at Stockholm, so long as the Palestinians received recognition of that right and a viable state with palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem and the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount. With those compromises in hand, Arafat would be in a strengthened position to go to the Al Aqsa Mosque and address the entire Palestinian disaspora: "There is no reason to go live in Israel now. Come home and help us build the state we have!"(56)" (page 282) Meanwhile Charles Enderlin's Shattered Dreams: The failure of the peace process in the middle east, 1995 - 2002 states: "Never, despite the claims of certain Jewish organisations, did the Palestinian negotiators demand the return to Israel of 3,000,000 refugees. The figures discussed in the course of the talks varied from several hundred to several thousand Palestinians to be allowed to return with Israel's authorisation" (Page 324) Palestinian negotiators have been willing to cede portions of Jerusalem, but never the whole thing. Of course the question is who the gently caress thinks Palestine should just make these concessions? This is a really bizarre discussion that has no bearing on either reality or the rights of the respective parties.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:45
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GaussianCopula posted:When did Palestinians ever offer to give up control over Jerusalem or abandon their right of return claim, can you please link sources? If they were majority christian would you even think demanding they cede the entirety of Jerusalem East/Al-Quds (which for the record is also a holy city for Islam) is a reasonable demand?
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Jul 24, 2017 19:53
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Would demolishing the Temple Mount be better in the long run? It seems that having an area that is the holiest site in one religion, and the third holiest site in another, is just bound to cause a never ending conflict.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:11
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qkkl posted:Would demolishing the Temple Mount be better in the long run? It seems that having an area that is the holiest site in one religion, and the third holiest site in another, is just bound to cause a never ending conflict. Demolishing the temple mount definitely has never caused problems in the past.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:17
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No negotiations of destroying the Temple Mount can begin until the Third Temple is finished, hth
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Jul 24, 2017 20:29
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qkkl posted:Would demolishing the Temple Mount be better in the long run? It seems that having an area that is the holiest site in one religion, and the third holiest site in another, is just bound to cause a never ending conflict. Why just the Temple Mount? Let's turn the entire Israel/Palestine area into smooth glass that glows in the dark. No?
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Jul 24, 2017 20:36
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The IDF:- a bunch of well armed ISIS barbarians and cowards. https://twitter.com/mohamedghilan/status/889568402364289024
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Jul 24, 2017 20:38
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Agnosticnixie posted:If they were majority christian would you even think demanding they cede the entirety of Jerusalem East/Al-Quds (which for the record is also a holy city for Islam) is a reasonable demand? As I see it they have 2 options: a) Continue to live in a permanent state of conflict b) Accept the reality that Israel made the Arabs pay for their continued aggression after 1948 and give up some things you don't want to give up. No matter their religion, option b is clearly to be preferred. It's not like the Greeks can make claims on Constantinople/Istanbul just because it's a holy city for them. Oh, and the Jews gave up Mount Sinai for peace, so there is even an example of that. Al-Saqr posted:The IDF:- a bunch of well armed ISIS barbarians and cowards. uhm, I did seem to miss it, but did they decapitate him like the Islamic State would probably have done? I mean it's very clear that he falls without the soldiers doing anything, and the muffled bang comes long after his fall starts, so is presumably unrelated. GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 20:48
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GaussianCopula posted:the Arabs  GaussianCopula posted:uhm, I did seem to miss it, but did they decapitate him like the Islamic State would probably have done?
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Jul 24, 2017 20:50
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Palestinians have already accepted they're the losers by offering up a ton of concessions. Every time they do Israel just pushes it's demands even further. It's Israel that has to change for peace to come about.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:51
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Al-Saqr posted:The IDF:- a bunch of well armed ISIS barbarians and cowards. What the hell happened there? It looked like one of the soldiers turned around and the Palestinian dude fell over.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:51
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GaussianCopula posted:As I see it they have 2 options: Jerusalem is about 33% palestinian right now you dipshit.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:52
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Also the ethnic cleansing of Palestine began before the Arabs invaded and was planned well ahead of time, and can't in any event be justified by the behaviour of Syria or whoever else.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:55
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