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He's not wrong.
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 15:45 |
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# ? Jun 9, 2024 17:15 |
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Hodgepodge posted:Funny, centrists love to claim scientific objectivity, but much of what you believe seems to amount to half-assed assumptions you never even considered to fact-check. Umm yes of course and the fact that marx invented new technical definitions for existing normative terms is part of the fun of Marxism where smart Marxists try to flip between the definitions without anyone noticing to trick onlookers into thinking the sciency technical definition backs the normative claim (and the dumb Marxists buy it).
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:01 |
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the trump tutelage posted:He's not wrong. he is cause he completely ignores the influence those sweatshop owners exert over the host governments to force the populace into situations where it's either sweatshop labor or starve. a lot of these places have their agricultural industries destroyed by US food, leaving a lot of hungry people without work, and then the sweatshops come in to charitably save these people by paying them sub-subsistence wages (as in they have to go into debt to loan sharks to live) and rape female workers on the regular. how charitable centrism is!
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:05 |
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asdf32 posted:Umm yes of course and the fact that marx invented new technical definitions for existing normative terms is part of the fun of Marxism where smart Marxists try to flip between the definitions without anyone noticing to trick onlookers into thinking the sciency technical definition backs the normative claim (and the dumb Marxists buy it). holy poo poo, you're actually trying to attack marx for defining his terms. in ways i've already demonstrated were utterly in line with their standard usage at the time he wrote. like you understand those definitions were from an etymological dictionary, right? and that those definitions are in line with how he used them? if not, your attack is so absurdly broad that literally no important figure of any ideology avoids it, down to ancient greek philosophers Hodgepodge has issued a correction as of 16:21 on Jul 24, 2017 |
# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:09 |
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the trump tutelage posted:He's not wrong. he is, actually
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:13 |
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Condiv posted:he is cause he completely ignores the influence those sweatshop owners exert over the host governments to force the populace into situations where it's either sweatshop labor or starve. a lot of these places have their agricultural industries destroyed by US food, leaving a lot of hungry people without work, and then the sweatshops come in to charitably save these people by paying them sub-subsistence wages (as in they have to go into debt to loan sharks to live) and rape female workers on the regular. how charitable centrism is! That would be relevant if his argument was "it's the best we can do" and not "it's better than nothing".
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:23 |
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the trump tutelage posted:That would be relevant if his argument was "it's the best we can do" and not "it's better than nothing". Being a colony is better than the total collapse of civilization, I suppose.
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:32 |
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Being a colony is better than the total collapse of civilization, I suppose. lol no it isn't
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:33 |
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the trump tutelage posted:That would be relevant if his argument was "it's the best we can do" and not "it's better than nothing". actually, destroying their economy so that sweatshops financed by hillary's friends can take root is not better than nothing. hth
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:35 |
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zeal posted:lol no it isn't Not for you, maybe.
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:36 |
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Condiv posted:he is cause he completely ignores the influence those sweatshop owners exert over the host governments to force the populace into situations where it's either sweatshop labor or starve. a lot of these places have their agricultural industries destroyed by US food, leaving a lot of hungry people without work, and then the sweatshops come in to charitably save these people by paying them sub-subsistence wages (as in they have to go into debt to loan sharks to live) and rape female workers on the regular. how charitable centrism is! Paul Krugman and asdf32 posted:After all, global poverty is not something recently invented for the benefit of multinational corporations. Hodgepodge posted:holy poo poo, you're actually trying to attack marx for defining his terms. in ways i've already demonstrated were utterly in line with their standard usage at the time he wrote. No I rarely if ever criticize Marx who was a great thinker in 1867. It's modern Marxists deliberately or naively blurring Marx's technical definitions with more common normative ones (exploitation is "unfair" according to the dictionary) that I'm aiming criticism at.
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:36 |
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Nobody thinks being "exploited" is a fair relationship, lmao. That's the primary appeal of Marxist labor theory.
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:37 |
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he's wrong about that too. poverty is frequently inflicted upon nations by mulitnationals for their benefit. what little wealth growth is shown is from grift paid to the host governments and paramilitaries.
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:38 |
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Condiv posted:he's wrong about that too. poverty is frequently inflicted upon nations by mulitnationals for their benefit. what little wealth growth is shown is from grift paid to the host governments and paramilitaries. He's not wrong that global poverty isn't new, he just also ignores the imperialist forces that reinforce it.
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:39 |
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:He's not wrong that global poverty isn't new, he just also ignores the imperialist forces that reinforce it. can you honestly argue that global poverty is not caused by imperialism? were any of these nations impoverished before they were hit hard by imperialism? i wouldn't say the native americans were
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:40 |
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asdf32 posted:No I rarely if ever criticize Marx who was a great thinker in 1867. It's modern Marxists deliberately or naively blurring Marx's technical definitions with more common normative ones (exploitation is "unfair" according to the dictionary) that I'm aiming criticism at. Those common normative terms, as you put them, arose more recently in no small part due to the influence of Marxism. That's why I used an etymological dictionary, to establish that their earlier meaning was closer to Marx' than our more recent and casual usage.
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:42 |
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Condiv posted:can you honestly argue that global poverty is not caused by imperialism? were any of these nations impoverished before they were hit hard by imperialism? i wouldn't say the native americans were Holy loving poo poo.
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:49 |
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asdf32 posted:Holy loving poo poo. were i live, the native peoples were enormously wealthy when europeans initially arrived, which is why traders were willing to come to a place that britain and spain and later america literally decided was too far away to be worth going to war for despite knowing there was shitloads of gold in the area or wait- you might actually be making unironically racist assumptions i guess
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:52 |
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Hodgepodge posted:were i live, the native peoples were enormously wealthy when europeans initially arrived, which is why traders were willing to come to a place that britain and spain and later america literally decided was too far away to be worth going to war for despite knowing there was shitloads of gold in the area oh he's just racistly assuming they lived horrible lives till the europeans came. maybe he forgot how many were killed by europeans and how the rest were shuffled off to barren lands and impoverished to this very day
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:54 |
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asdf32 posted:Holy loving poo poo. turns out the liberal dipshit knows gently caress all about the pre-columbian americas, in a shocking turn no one could have anticipated
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:54 |
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asdf32 posted:Holy loving poo poo. fun game for you, asdf32: guess what the most populous city on the face of the planet was in 1492 turns out the barbaric savages understood more about public health than anyone in europe did, poo poo's nuts
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 16:59 |
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"wealthy" seems like a clumsy word to use. At least I imagine that the definition would change in the context of pre-contact versus post-contact North America.
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:00 |
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Ze Pollack posted:fun game for you, asdf32: guess what the most populous city on the face of the planet was in 1492 to be fair, the fact that our cities were literal shitholes with actual human poo poo everywhere in the streets turned out to be one hell of a biological weapon
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:01 |
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the trump tutelage posted:"wealthy" seems like a clumsy word to use. At least I imagine that the definition would change in the context of pre-contact versus post-contact North America. well, once the spanish stole enormous amounts of gold, the definition of 'wealthy' was certainly rather different in south america
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:02 |
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the trump tutelage posted:"wealthy" seems like a clumsy word to use. At least I imagine that the definition would change in the context of pre-contact versus post-contact North America. in post-contact na, wealthy was surviving the blight brought and intentionally spread by imperialist foreigners
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:02 |
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Hodgepodge posted:were i live, the native peoples were enormously wealthy when europeans initially arrived, which is why traders were willing to come to a place that britain and spain and later america literally decided was too far away to be worth going to war for despite knowing there was shitloads of gold in the area No meanwhile romantisizing pre-industrial life is patronizing. One reminder about sweatshops is the're not unique to the third world - first world industrialization went through the same thing and it was just as bad (though much longer since modern economic growth can be so much faster precisely because of trade). And the reason it's universal is because even lovely wage paying factory jobs have offered something better than the alternative for billions of people. That reality is disturbing. Downplaying it is too. Ze Pollack posted:fun game for you, asdf32: guess what the most populous city on the face of the planet was in 1492 You can blame westerners for lots of things but disease isn't one of them.
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:04 |
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asdf32 posted:No meanwhile romantisizing pre-industrial life is patronizing. no it's universal cause the mulitnationals that create and use sweatshops demand they have no worker protections. that's why when haiti tried to get a better minimum wage you had hillary as SoS working against it what you're observing is not default state of the human condition, but hellholes inflicted upon the third world by an uncaring aristocratic international class of monsters, and propped up by neoimperialist regimes like the USA. hth
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:06 |
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asdf32 posted:You can blame westerners for lots of things but disease isn't one of them. actually you can since westerners recognized their diseases could be used as weapons and did so gleefully. how wonderfully centrist of them!
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:08 |
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:This is a very facile understanding, because Actually Existing Socialisms did rely on quite a bit of corruption just to make sure that systemic shortages didn't reach a breaking point, and the question was just how much the state should crack down on black markets. The advantage of a capitalist structure is that what you'd normally consider corrupt can be made a legally sanctioned part of the formal system.
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:09 |
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asdf32 posted:No meanwhile romantisizing pre-industrial life is patronizing. all of this is of great relevance to 19th Century British history, but has little to do with imperial expansion, which you evidently know very little about since it largely happened before the industrial revolution and areas were not colonized in order to industrialize the acquired territories even once industrialization was a thing quote:You can blame westerners for lots of things but disease isn't one of them. that depends on whether you consider it "our fault" that our cities were literally disease breeding shitholes
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:10 |
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as much as i'd like to consider this on-topic, i'm not sure how much of what asdf is posting can be held against centrism; this is all shamefully ignorant and would get them laughed out of all the cool centrist clubs quote:And the reason it's universal is because even lovely wage paying factory jobs have offered something better than the alternative for billions of people. just to give you a little credit this is well argued by harold perkin who is a great marxist historian of british industrialization Hodgepodge has issued a correction as of 17:19 on Jul 24, 2017 |
# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:14 |
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ignorant motherfucker
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:19 |
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asdf32 posted:
no, it turns out you very much can hilariously the biggest reason western europeans ate native americans alive was exactly the fact that native americans grasped basic concepts of public health and western europeans did not: it turned out people who spent their entire lives eating and drinking food that was 30% each other's piss and poo poo by volume had successfully incubated some much nastier diseases than the ones who'd figured out that was, in fact, a bad idea. it's actually strongly implicated in why the industrial revolution started where it did, even; steam powered machines popped up intermittently throughout history, but without the incentive to develop them further people just didn't. china and india had textile industries, an abundance of easily available coal, and the metalworking knowledge required as well! it's just that in China and India they'd mastered the concept of not making GBS threads where you eat, and so when you needed someone else to weave cloth you walked outside, threw a brick, and said "congratulations, you work for me now" to the person you'd concussed. meanwhile, in Jolly Olde Englande, Whatte Do You Meane Yon Well Be Not For Piffing, they had a textile industry and also a fun habit of losing 60% of the population to plagues every other generation. Machine Loom Mark One is not worth several hundred times a craftsman's wage. but when you can't buy another person to work for you, then and only then the crazy machine becomes worth a try. in the end, the story of European dominance over the world can, in fact, be traced to a single thing we did that nobody else in the world did. in conclusion, Trump 2020, Made Strong By The Piss, Undone By The Piss
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:21 |
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let me tell you a story of the time the thames stunk so bad that it went down in historyhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Stink posted:The Great Stink was an event in central London in July and August 1858 during which the hot weather exacerbated the smell of untreated human waste and industrial effluent that was present on the banks of the River Thames. The problem had been mounting for some years, with an ageing and inadequate sewer system that emptied directly into the Thames. The miasma from the effluent was thought to transmit contagious diseases, and three outbreaks of cholera prior to the Great Stink were blamed on the ongoing problems with the river. http://www.choleraandthethames.co.uk/cholera-in-london/the-great-stink/ posted:Though the situation with the Thames was noticeable before the onset of England’s Industrial Age, it was the summer of 1858 that finally brought it to the attention of lawmakers. That particular summer, all of London was feeling the affects of an oppressive heat wave and as a result, all the sewage in the Thames began to ferment in the scorching sun—centuries of waste was literally cooking in the monstrous heat. The result was a smell as offensive and disgusting as can ever be imagined. It spawned accounts such as the following: there were “stories flying of men struck down with the stench, and of all kinds of fatal diseases, up-springing on the river’s banks.”
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:29 |
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*extremely Krugman voice* actually while an idiot would say plague blankets were evil it would have been far more cruel to let the indians freeze to death after we violently exiled them from their lands
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:31 |
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Hodgepodge posted:let me tell you a story of the time the thames stunk so bad that it went down in history love this nice historical account of centrists in action
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:32 |
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mass production was a mistake, bring back handmade everything
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:33 |
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logikv9 posted:mass production was a mistake, bring back handmade everything lots of stuff is made by tiny little hands in sweatshops thankfully that work helps set them free
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:35 |
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logikv9 posted:mass production was a mistake, bring back handmade everything bespoke centrism
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:36 |
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# ? Jun 9, 2024 17:15 |
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my posts are painstakingly handcrafted and i take pride in each one of them it's time to teach the world the value of handcrafted goods
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# ? Jul 24, 2017 17:39 |