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I have unleashed a dark evil upon the world by mentioning the Hobbit films and I am genuinely sorry for it. Is there some sort of CD-Batsignal leftover from Radium's old forum code that makes this happen?
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Jul 24, 2017 17:35
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There are a lot of small cuts and ellipses made in Fellowship but relatively few of them are actual contradictions or changes to the base story. Arwen for Glorfindel is a direct change, and a major one, but one that can be defended for a lot of reasons (the female love interest should probably appear before the appendix). She appears in the Council of Elrond chapter in the books. Making her a temporary action hero and wizard extraordinaire doesn't add anything to the "romance" story (really both books and films treat her as just a prize for Aragorn following her introduction, rather than an actual "love interest" involved in the narrative). Eowyn's the female romantic lead of the series, and a decent one (since she has depth and an actual arc).
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Jul 24, 2017 18:02
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sassassin posted:Eowyn's the female romantic lead of the series, and a decent one (since she has depth and an actual arc). And better than the books in that regard since there she literally gives up everything that makes her Éowyn as soon as she catches the eye of the handsome prince
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Jul 24, 2017 19:14
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If you take out Eowyn there are 0 female characters in the first movie . I mean they could have made Merry female I guess.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:16
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euphronius posted:If you take out Eowyn there are 0 female characters in the first movie . I hear Cate Blanchett was in there somewhere
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Jul 24, 2017 19:41
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sassassin posted:I think we can all agree that the Tolkien estate is right to keep The Silmarillion etc. out of the hands of Hollywood. I will never stop hoping for the Studio Ghibli Lay of Leithian.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:00
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Runcible Cat posted:I will never stop hoping for the Studio Ghibli Lay of Leithian. How dare you make me think about this thing that I now want desperately.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:05
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sassassin posted:PJ's The Hobbit movies are much more faithful to the books than his The Lord of the Rings, they just fell under a much harsher lens having come later, and not having the novelty/innovation factor. That's a drat fine probation reason! And Aragorn should have united the kingdoms by marrying Eomer.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:08
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skasion posted:I hear Cate Blanchett was in there somewhere Forgot about her
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Jul 24, 2017 20:10
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Data Graham posted:And better than the books in that regard since there she literally gives up everything that makes her Éowyn as soon as she catches the eye of the handsome prince If you mean she gives up her foolish romantic view of bloodshed, battle & "glory" then yes, but it's not Faramir's attention that changes her, it's Pelennor Fields. Witnessing the death of Theoden, facing down the Witch King of Angmar and almost dying in the process makes her grow up and her reward is the best guy in the books. She's one of the few characters with a real arc. sassassin fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 20:13
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sassassin posted:If you mean she gives up her foolish Romantic view of bloodshed, battle & "glory" then yes, but it's not Faramir's attention that changes her, it's Pelennor Fields. Eowyn is also depressed and shell shocked and falls in love with Faramir because he's sympathetic to her problems and doesn't dismiss her, but instead validates her and encouraged her to heal from her physical and psychological wounds because he's confident they don't define her. but sure let's degrade her character by calling it "catching the eye of a handsome prince"
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Jul 24, 2017 20:23
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Faramir wasn't a prince, his father was only the Steward 
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Jul 24, 2017 21:19
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Another way in which I'm being tongue in cheek
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Jul 24, 2017 21:21
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Ashcans posted:Faramir wasn't a prince, his father was only the Steward He gets made a prince by Aragon doesn't he?
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Jul 24, 2017 21:51
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Lemniscate Blue posted:I have unleashed a dark evil upon the world by mentioning the Hobbit films and I am genuinely sorry for it. Here's my hot take: Judged on their own merits, the three LotR movies are a drat good ride, not being faithful isn't a sign or lack of quality. The Hobbit movies aren't bad because they  defile the canon, they're bad because they're bloated and unfocused and thematically incoherent.
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Jul 24, 2017 22:00
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PMush Perfect posted:No. That's true, but those aren't exclusive options: the original Hobbit text was tight and focused and thematically coherent. Jackson made good and bad changes in different films, but most of his early changes were necessary "fixes", either to problems in the text or to problems introduced by the shift to film. By the.time he gets to Hobbit 3 though he's just farting around. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 22:07
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PMush Perfect posted:No. My hot take: deciding whether things are "good" or "bad" is a waste of time and a poor excuse for actual criticism.
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Jul 24, 2017 22:25
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Black Leaf posted:That's a drat fine probation reason! Marrying Faramir off served the same purpose, while allowing him to marry (back) into the line of Noldorian kings. Reading as an adult, Aragorn was quite the canny politician, albeit a good-hearted and noble one.
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Jul 25, 2017 02:12
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Ynglaur posted:Marrying Faramir off served the same purpose, while allowing him to marry (back) into the line of Noldorian kings. Reading as an adult, Aragorn was quite the canny politician, albeit a good-hearted and noble one. Indeed. I really enjoy the low-key consolidation of power that Aragorn is able to carry out. Tolkien doesn't approach it as an intrigue at all but it's quite remarkable how a pretender from a foreign country, his claim millennia old, with no wealth or army to speak of, is able to seize the throne based almost entirely on his personal relationships with the de jure ruler of Minas Tirith, the most powerful vassal lord in Gondor, and the nominally vassal king of Rohan.
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Jul 25, 2017 02:52
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Well, he also had the support of Elrond. He also played up Pippin's noble status, though I don't think it helped much.
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Jul 25, 2017 02:56
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His Magic sword and blood also helped.
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Jul 25, 2017 02:59
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Kinda neat how it's a fusion of the Arthurian-legendary and the medieval-pragmatic eras of English royal history that Tolkien would have been endlessly deluged with throughout his education even if he weren't interested in it.
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Jul 25, 2017 03:08
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Please, everyone knows that no further proof was needed after Ioreth backed him.
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Jul 25, 2017 03:08
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skasion posted:Indeed. I really enjoy the low-key consolidation of power that Aragorn is able to carry out. Tolkien doesn't approach it as an intrigue at all but it's quite remarkable how a pretender from a foreign country, his claim millennia old, with no wealth or army to speak of, is able to seize the throne based almost entirely on his personal relationships with the de jure ruler of Minas Tirith, the most powerful vassal lord in Gondor, and the nominally vassal king of Rohan. Isn't this basically the angle that The Last Ringbearer uses to argue the whole trilog y is elf propaganda?
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Jul 25, 2017 03:11
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He did have an army though . Also denethor betrayed the kingdom so I don't think the Stewards were real popular. That is a tense part of the book of you remember after Pelanor. Aragon doesn't run into the city but plays it cool and builds street cred by healing people (magic blood again ) It's real easy to support a monarch when they literally are racial super men .
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Jul 25, 2017 03:13
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Bongo Bill posted:Well, he also had the support of Elrond. I forgot about the Pippin part, but you're right!
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Jul 25, 2017 03:42
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Isn't this basically the angle that The Last Ringbearer uses to argue the whole trilog y is elf propaganda? I couldn't get through it but my understanding is that its Aragorn is a puppet of the elves. Which is certainly not without basis since Elrond does strongly back him, but the reason why he is able to make it good is because Eomer and Imrahil are on the spot with armies (Imrahil in particular takes the liberty of inviting him into the city) and Faramir doesn't resist his claim.
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Jul 25, 2017 04:13
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Kinda like the theory that "The Eagles" are a propaganda replacement for "orcs not affiliated with Sauron".
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Jul 25, 2017 04:16
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And let's not forget how absurdly weak Aragon's claim is. It's roughly equivalent to a King Ralph situation where that guy in Canada who had Richard III's dna tries to claim the throne of modern England.
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Jul 25, 2017 04:17
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PMush Perfect posted:Kinda like the theory that "The Eagles" are a propaganda replacement for "orcs not affiliated with Sauron". I like the idea that sometimes it does mean literal actual giant divine birds, and sometimes that's just the go-to lie for when the truth was too embarrassing (because it was actually free orcs). Nobody would believe in eagles if it hadn't actually happened a couple times.
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Jul 25, 2017 04:35
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PMush Perfect posted:Kinda like the theory that "The Eagles" are a propaganda replacement for "orcs not affiliated with Sauron". YES DID SOMEBODY BRING UP EAGLES I WILL YELL ABOUT THIS UNTIL THE END OF TIME Really though, bringing back this legendary-status pair of heroes from certain death in Mordor and parading him-- and his utter loyalty-- through the city couldn't have hurt Aragorn's political standing at all. Absolutely worth cutting a deal with some orcs, a couple hostages in exchange for free passage to Harad, to be able to line up that kind of popular support. And if anybody asks how you got two lil dudes out of Mordor, well... Gondor is REALLY into old stories and citing the intervention of Eagles can only add to the mythical image of Aragorn's supporters.
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Jul 25, 2017 05:09
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NEVER stop posting. 
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Jul 25, 2017 09:19
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What's the Last Ringbearer's explanation for how Gandalf gets free of Orthanc if the eagles are propaganda? Are he and Saruman in cahoots or what?
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Jul 25, 2017 09:25
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Radio! posted:What's the Last Ringbearer's explanation for how Gandalf gets free of Orthanc if the eagles are propaganda? Are he and Saruman in cahoots or what? Hieronymous Alloy posted:And let's not forget how absurdly weak Aragon's claim is. It's roughly equivalent to a King Ralph situation where that guy in Canada who had Richard III's dna tries to claim the throne of modern England.
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Jul 25, 2017 09:32
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Nessus posted:Wasn't Aragorn's claim to being the king of Arnor pretty solid, it's just that the kingship was kind of a dead letter since Arnor seemed to be a moderate number of Dunedan living in treehouses plus Bree and the Shire? He's the rightful king of Those Guys Over There and a bunch of townships entirely unaware of his existence. Fortunately kingship carries a certain sacred quality in LotR and you can't really get around that. You might as well ask why one of the many Stewards didn't just declare themselves King.
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Jul 25, 2017 09:43
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I thought they were more of an autonomous collective.
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Jul 25, 2017 09:47
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The "healing hands of the king" are interesting because Tolkien explicitly links it to basic Elven healing "magic" that Elladan and Elrohir are able to carry out in secret right afterwards. It's a matter of education, not bloodline. And the prophecy was almost certainly invented by some old bearded fellow roaming around the city in ages past. There's nothing divine about Aragorn's right to rule Gondor. His ascendancy is carefully curated.
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Jul 25, 2017 10:52
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Like his whole special deal for the first 4 books is that he's a big Numenorean Man out of ancient stories and destined to be more than just a scruffy ranger, but then when he actually gets to Gondor Tolkien surrounds him with equally special (if not more so) guys like Faramir (explicitly far more Numenorean-like than Boromir), Prince Imrahil (obvious Elven blood) and a pair of mudblood Elves defined largely by their lack of uniqueness. He's a big part of Gandalf's quest to destroy his divine enemies and bring order to Middle Earth, but extremely replaceable (he had Faramir waiting in the wings after all).
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Jul 25, 2017 11:09
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Nessus posted:
Right, but that's like the king of England saying "hey, make me king of France." Sure there was some overlap a thousand years ago so there is a technical claim, but really?
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Jul 25, 2017 12:43
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Aragorn is the only one with the right to summon the Dead men of dunharrow which is a big deal. I wouldn't say he is replaceable. Additionally he's the only one with a claim to gondor and arnor. Faramir and Imrahil have no claim to Arnor. Aragorn is a big deal !
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Jul 25, 2017 13:04
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