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Disinterested posted:The last time the US threatened to cut aid the Israelis ran breathlessly to the negotiating table. Israel is the US's largest foreign donee and the US is by far its biggest donor. In the last 60 years the donations amount to over $250 bn. The US pays 1/4 of the Israeli defence budget (and Israel spends more on its national defence than Iran, Canada, Spain, Turkey, Pakistan, Poland or Mexico, 6% of its GDP - the only countries who expend more per capita on their own defence are Saudi Arabia and Singapore) and provides it with almost all of its high end equipment. The question is if Israel could continue its colonization efforts without US aid. I think it can, since you don't need expensive military equipment to occupy Palestine, and Israel's economy is strong enough that it can give its citizens food, water, and shelter without extra US money. But Israel does want US aid, because who is going to say no to free money? Besides, the US spending on Israel's military is really just the US subsidizing its own military industrial complex, just like it does when it sells billions of dollars of weapons to Saudi Arabia that it pays for with the money that the US paid them for oil.
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Jul 25, 2017 04:49
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qkkl posted:The question is if Israel could continue its colonization efforts without US aid. I think it can, since you don't need expensive military equipment to occupy Palestine, and Israel's economy is strong enough that it can give its citizens food, water, and shelter without extra US money. But Israel does want US aid, because who is going to say no to free money? Actually the Israelis have the unique perk of being allowed to spend 1/4 of the aid on their own defence industry's weapons, and, again, whenever the US has threatened to cut aid the Israelis take note. These numbers are huge, and the occupation puts massive pressure on Israel's defence establishment to maintain. The Israelis can -survive- without it, sure, but it's a lot tougher. In any event, it makes your phony comparisons with other countries absurd. The US directly underwrites ethnic cleansing in Palestine, and encourages it. It has it in its power to at least curtail, if not stop it.
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Jul 25, 2017 04:52
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hakimashou posted:Nobody knows really. The Arabs lost their wars with Israel, it's settled whether people want to admit it or not. Israel has a nuclear deterrent and the most powerful friends any country could have. The Jewish state will continue to exist and unless people are willing to accept and make peace with that then they will not have a good time of it. What do the Palestinians have to do with "the Arabs'" wars with Israel? Also - get this - Japan's restrictive immigration policies and China's discrimination against non-Han people are both bad things. They're just below what Israel is doing in terms of direct oppression of a minority population. But it's hilarious to use them as some sort of bizarre defense of Israel being an ethnic state.
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Jul 25, 2017 05:11
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qkkl posted:I'm wondering what Palestinians think their end game is? Another war down the line that Israel loses? I know from watching some imam sermons that there is a belief that Allah will cause Islam's enemies to be greatly weakened by natural disasters or other outside phenomenon. Barring losing a war, Israel is just going to continue to squeeze the Palestinians by building settlements and cutting down on services for Palestinians to lower their birth rate, until Jews make up 80%+ of the Israel+West Bank population and the area effectively becomes a Jewish ethno-state. Can you please rephrase your first question? To me it seems like an "end game" would be to live their lives without worrying about a constant hostile military occupation or having their land taken and houses razed. Im curious about what you think a good "end game" would be. You're mentioning sermons you watched, are you really saying their only plan is to pray their occupiers become weakened enough to revolt? Like, "Barring losing a war, Israel is just going to continue to squeeze the Palestinians by [...] cutting down on services for Palestinians to lower their birth rate" is genocide. Your posts read to me like you're advocating for such a genocide, that you view an inevitable starvation(or other deliberate preventable death) of millions of people as desirable. I have trouble believing you think genocide is a likely outcome while viewing the group praying some outside force intervenes as as villainous. If I am misinterpreting you, can you please reword your view and share what you would like to see happen? treasured8elief fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 05:16
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hakimashou posted:Nobody knows really. The Arabs lost their wars with Israel, it's settled whether people want to admit it or not. Israel has a nuclear deterrent and the most powerful friends any country could have. The Jewish state will continue to exist and unless people are willing to accept and make peace with that then they will not have a good time of it. My read on why Israel is so prominent an issue for Americans and Europeans is that Israelis feel like us in a way that other nationalities often don't. Israel is a developed country with strong ties to American and European communities. It's different to see people you relate to, people you're friends with or have family in your own neighborhood, involved in a conflict like that.
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Jul 25, 2017 05:24
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Pirate Radar posted:My read on why Israel is so prominent an issue for Americans and Europeans is that Israelis feel like us in a way that other nationalities often don't. Israel is a developed country with strong ties to American and European communities. It's different to see people you relate to, people you're friends with or have family in your own neighborhood, involved in a conflict like that. I agree with this interpretation. I think that it is more shocking for people in developed nations to see other people in developed nations (or nations perceived that way, at least) do terrible things. Like, no one is really surprised when Saudi Arabia does lovely things, but Israel is generally treated as similar to any other developed Western nation. I think another aspect is that there's even a debate to be had in the first place. A discussion about the aforementioned Saudi Arabia being bad isn't really going to go anywhere, since pretty much everyone agrees about it. But when Israel is discussed a whole brigade of people is usually around to defend it, which causes the discussion to continue and grow in intensity.
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Jul 25, 2017 05:27
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hakimashou posted:If well-intentioned people want to make a difference then they are barking up the wrong tree with Israel. There are millions of lives to be saved from starvation, malnutrition and preventable disease all over the developing world. What makes Israel different from all these other worthy causes in terms of the furious hatred and frenzy it provokes in Europeans and some Americans will probably always remain a mystery. What is occurring in South Sudan and Yemen infuriates me and frustrates me much much more than this, but I don't really see many posters actively defending those atrocities being committed. It does make me mad to see such an unjust situation as I/P be spoken of in a positive light by so many people, both in our government and on this forum. That, to me, is what makes Israel different from those other worthy causes. My voice can make a bigger impact discussing the current occupation with people who disagree, than I could discussing an atrocity where our opinion is unanimous. treasured8elief fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 05:54
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tentative8e8op posted:Can you please rephrase your first question? To me it seems like an "end game" would be to live their lives without worrying about a constant hostile military occupation or having their land taken and houses razed. You have a bias that is interpreting what I said as being pro-Israel. If you read it more carefully you'll see no mention on whether I think Israel genociding the Palestinians is a good or bad thing. I approach the Israel/Palestine issue by pretending I am an alien from a different world who just got to Earth and is learning about the Israel/Palestine conflict from Wikipedia. If I were a Palestinian, a good "end game" would be the establishment of an independent Palestinian state with no Israeli occupiers or blockades.
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Jul 25, 2017 06:18
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qkkl posted:You have a bias that is interpreting what I said as being pro-Israel. If you read it more carefully you'll see no mention on whether I think Israel genociding the Palestinians is a good or bad thing. I approach the Israel/Palestine issue by pretending I am an alien from a different world who just got to Earth and is learning about the Israel/Palestine conflict from Wikipedia. Guess what their desired end game is. That, it's always loving been that
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Jul 25, 2017 06:19
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Disinterested posted:Guess what their desired end game is. Well they better make Israel a good offer soon cause every year they delay Israel settles more Palestinian land.
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Jul 25, 2017 06:26
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qkkl posted:Well they better make Israel a good offer soon cause every year they delay Israel settles more Palestinian land. They've offered everything short of an unconditional surrender. They have decided they may as well just wait and see.
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Jul 25, 2017 06:30
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Disinterested posted:They've offered everything short of an unconditional surrender. Nasty wars have to end in unconditional surrender or they just drag on forever.
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Jul 25, 2017 06:37
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hakimashou posted:Nasty wars have to end in unconditional surrender or they just drag on forever. Yes, I know you don't think there's such thing as morality.
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Jul 25, 2017 06:39
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There is literally no option where the settlements keep happening that doesn't end in either an even worse palestinian genocide than the nakbas or israelis being outnumbered by palestinians within Israel anyway. Likud is basically betting everything on a bluff they can't back down the line with the settlements.
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Jul 25, 2017 06:51
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Is anyone actually pro-Israel. All the pro-Israel posts on these last two pages look like lazy trolling, it's all just rephrasings of the evil three-decade-old apartheid defenses in my home country.
All we need now is Kirschen-style alternate history "Palestine didn't exist before 1948, so Palestinians must not have been here either, maybe they appeared out of the ether one day" so we can check off the "actually, white people settled Africa first" argument. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 07:15
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Kim Jong Il posted:If Israel was uniformly interested in colonization, they would have done so. They have a repeated history of territorial withdrawal. They are doing so. The only times they have relented and withdrawn from territory is under military pressure and out of concern for ethnic purity. quote:It's always bogged down over specifics around things like Jerusalem borders and refugees. "1967 borders" is a non starter, there will be land swaps. Again, Palestinians have agreed to land swaps even though the consensus opinion of basically every country on earth is that the 67 borders are the default starting position. qkkl posted:Massing troops at the border of a small country is an act of war. Not if they're in defensive positions and massed there because the "small country" has a powerful military that it is planning to crush you with and then proceeds to do so. hakimashou posted:Nasty wars have to end in unconditional surrender or they just drag on forever. Well obviously no, they don't. Conditional surrenders are a thing. Secondly the normal practice for a surrender is for the victorious side to treat the losing side within the bounds of war. Basically the entire problem we have is that Israel wants to continually commit war crimes against the Palestinians so there's not anything to really surrender for. qkkl posted:Well they better make Israel a good offer soon cause every year they delay Israel settles more Palestinian land. They have. There is even an outstanding Arab peace plan offer supported by all the surrounding countries that gives Israel guaranteed peace with it's neighbours if it just stops committing war crimes. Sadly Israel prefers to continue ethnic cleansing to peace.
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Jul 25, 2017 07:34
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VitalSigns posted:Is anyone actually pro-Israel. All the pro-Israel posts on these last two pages look like lazy trolling, it's all just rephrasings of the evil three-decade-old apartheid defenses in my home country. *The British are hated everywhere, and the Irish almost killed us all! We need a British ethno-state!
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Jul 25, 2017 07:36
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team overhead smash posted:I can't see the Palestinians accepting it, the loss of Jerusalem and possibly Al Aqsa is massive, nor can I see why it would be broached seeing as Gaza is the only bit of Palestinian territory that Israel seems like it would be happy to do away with. I completely agree with you. But then we've also had multiple leaks over the past years showing that the Palestinian negotiators are willing to accept very far reaching proposals.
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Jul 25, 2017 07:43
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VitalSigns posted:
I'm jealous that you've never encountered this before. It is a massive pro Israel taking point that comes out all the time
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Jul 25, 2017 07:57
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team overhead smash posted:They have. There is even an outstanding Arab peace plan offer supported by all the surrounding countries that gives Israel guaranteed peace with it's neighbours if it just stops committing war crimes. Sadly Israel prefers to continue ethnic cleansing to peace. Well maybe they should try a different plan. If I were Palestine I would offer an unrealistically generous plan, something like:
If Israel accepts this plan then I would see how much I could dilute the plan but still have Israel accept it.
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Jul 25, 2017 08:04
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qkkl posted:If I were Palestine I would offer an unrealistically generous plan Brilliant. Actual Palestinian negotiators have done this. The Israeli response was to drop white phosphorous on Palestinian elementary schools.
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Jul 25, 2017 08:06
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qkkl posted:Well maybe they should try a different plan. If I were Palestine I would offer an unrealistically generous plan, something like: 420 Gank Mid fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 08:11
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qkkl posted:Well maybe they should try a different plan. If I were Palestine I would offer an unrealistically generous plan, something like: If you were Palestinian you would hopefully not be this much of a psycho
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Jul 25, 2017 08:22
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qkkl posted:If Israel accepts this plan then I would see how much I could dilute the plan but still have Israel accept it. That... isn't how negotiating works.
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Jul 25, 2017 08:29
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mediadave posted:That... isn't how negotiating works. By offering to give up 50% of the West Bank the Palestinians will then be in a strong position to demand concessions. 
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Jul 25, 2017 08:33
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I don't think qkkl is being serious, it's a little too on the nose. Real Likud defenders take care to disguise their unreasonable demands. But you know, Poe's Law. It's hard to tell when you've got unironic psychopaths like Hakimashou who has been relentlessly pro-genocide in every situation for years and years, including arguing that it would be good if America nuked the world immediately after WW2 because it would be America doing it.
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Jul 25, 2017 08:34
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Agnosticnixie posted:If you were Palestinian you would hopefully not be this much of a psycho If he was that much of a psycho and also a Palestinian he might do something really psycho which would set back the cause of the Palestinians like... murder strangers in the street with a knife, or set a bomb off in a crowded cafe, or run people over deliberately with a car.
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Jul 25, 2017 09:38
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Ah yes, three things which for instance American psychos never do. Of course then it's just lone wolves and nothing changes.
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Jul 25, 2017 09:47
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israel is plagued with evil men, a blight upon the house and a mockery of the name of abraham. they must all be shot dead, preferably by someone from this very thread, starting with netanyahu and his wretched family. there was a time when i said that israel must exist - that the nation of israel is necessary to protect the jewish people from persecution and extinction, to legitimise us in the eyes of the world and promise retribution on the international stage in the face of the many millions of people that hate us. that time has passed. the israel of today is a monster. we believe we've come home; by re-conquering the patch of earth that was gifted to us by the lord all those thousands of years ago we've fulfilled our holy duty and can rest on our laurels, a people triumphant. that is not true. we will never come home, not in this lifetime. our home isn't in the world. it's not a country. israel sits surrounded by hostile nations, sandwiched between the ocean and a desert that is growing larger, hotter and angrier by the day. what happens to us when the land that we call israel becomes uninhabitable? what happens when the first nuke is dropped and the age of fire is upon us? who will save the jews then? the israelis have grown complacent and wicked. they think that their continued fortune is granted by haShem as a reward for what they've done. in fact their fortune is pitiful when compared to the suffering that lies ahead for all of us, in israel and abroad. the lord doesn't pay favour for favour, like a businessman - cosmic vengeance is slow, it is cumulative, and when it comes it will threaten our very existence. netanyahu and his ilk must die for all our sakes, and the jewish people must re-learn the kindness and the humility that we lost in the past half-century of good luck - we fall further from grace every day
kurrajongs fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 10:27
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kurrajongs posted:israel is plagued with evil men, a blight upon the house and a mockery of the name of abraham. they must all be shot dead, preferably by someone from this very thread, starting with netanyahu and his wretched family. there was a time when i said that israel must exist - that the nation of israel is necessary to protect the jewish people from persecution and extinction, to legitimise us in the eyes of the world and promise retribution on the international stage in the face of the many millions of people that hate us. that time has passed. the israel of today is a monster. we believe we've come home; by re-conquering the patch of earth that was gifted to us by the lord all those thousands of years ago we've fulfilled our holy duty and can rest on our laurels, a people triumphant. that is not true. we will never come home, not in this lifetime. our home isn't in the world. it's not a country. israel sits surrounded by hostile nations, sandwiched between the ocean and a desert that is growing larger, hotter and angrier by the day. what happens to us when the land that we call israel becomes uninhabitable? what happens when the first nuke is dropped and the age of fire is upon us? who will save the jews then? the israelis have grown complacent and wicked. they think that their continued fortune is granted by haShem as a reward for what they've done. in fact their fortune is pitiful when compared to the suffering that lies ahead for all of us, in israel and abroad. the lord doesn't pay favour for favour, like a businessman - cosmic vengeance is slow, it is cumulative, and when it comes it will threaten our very existence. netanyahu and his ilk must die for all our sakes, and the jewish people must re-learn the kindness and the humility that we lost in the past half-century of good luck - we fall further from grace every day wb avs
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Jul 25, 2017 10:38
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God bless you and keep you avshalom
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Jul 25, 2017 10:39
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A secular one-state solution is the only ethical answer, the Israelis will never accept it though
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Jul 25, 2017 10:39
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starkebn posted:A secular one-state solution is the only ethical answer, the Israelis will never accept it though How would you guarantee that the state stays secular, especially in light of demographic trends?
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Jul 25, 2017 10:43
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A constitution that enshrines a seperation of church and state, protection of freedom of religion etc. Like many other nations do.
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Jul 25, 2017 10:46
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GaussianCopula posted:How would you guarantee that the state stays secular, especially in light of demographic trends? We must secure the existence of our people and a future for secular children.
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Jul 25, 2017 10:51
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GaussianCopula posted:How would you guarantee that the state stays secular, especially in light of demographic trends? Abolish religion and raze Jerusalem.
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Jul 25, 2017 10:52
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starkebn posted:A constitution that enshrines a seperation of church and state, protection of freedom of religion etc. Like many other nations do. A constitution can be changed, just look at Turkey to see how a state can easily transition from secular, even Laizist to religious - or look at the US to see how dominant religion can still be even if you have a secular constitution. Add to that that both major Palestinian parties are very religious and one of them has a founding document, that some people call "a modern Mein Kampf" with regard to anti-Semitic statements.
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Jul 25, 2017 10:54
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starkebn posted:A secular one-state solution is the only ethical answer, the Israelis will never accept it though A secular one state solution where Jews and Arabs live in peace is ethical. A secular state where the two groups need to be protected from one another is not ethical.
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Jul 25, 2017 11:01
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all races need to be protected from each other in every single country in the world, you idiot. for example, in america, every race other than white needs to be protected from white people
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Jul 25, 2017 11:02
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GaussianCopula posted:A constitution can be changed, just look at Turkey to see how a state can easily transition from secular, even Laizist to religious - or look at the US to see how dominant religion can still be even if you have a secular constitution. Add to that that both major Palestinian parties are very religious and one of them has a founding document, that some people call "a modern Mein Kampf" with regard to anti-Semitic statements. That's a very poor argument, because it applies to literally every political endeavor. "Well we shouldn't do a good thing because, well, what if afterwards it were replaced by something bad?" Also "some people" are stupid as hell. "Some people" would also call your posts "a modern Mein Kampf".
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Jul 25, 2017 11:03
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