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OwlFancier posted:My point, is that if your complaint against international regulation of powerful capital is that it might end up with some nations trying to game it to support lovely practices then you're going to end up waiting until capital has control of the planet before you think to move against it. So you do think that Trump is unbeatable and is going to rule for a thousand years of darkness? Because I don't think that's the case.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:07
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Who What Now posted:So you do think that Trump is unbeatable and is going to rule for a thousand years of darkness? Because I don't think that's the case. I appreciate that you may be American and thus unable to consider that other parts of the world exist but I did clearly say international in that sentence somewhere.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:08
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rkajdi posted:Pretty much. It's not so much that their inceldom is the problem, it's the symptom. The problem is these people are by hook or crook anti-social, and stand zero chance of making a real connection with anyone. I'm not certain the problem is even fixable. Just like a lot of stuff involving these guys, the solution is limiting their ability to screw the world up for normal people. I also don't expect this to be successful, because it would probably require getting rid of the wild west anonymous internet that lots of people seem very invested in. None of these people are beyond hope. Social isolation and ostracization does horrible things to people. Unfortunately they themselves have to take the first step out of it.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:08
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:How long before an alternative to Patreon would arise if you tried this? Do you think if you started trying this route to try and economically sanctioning/economic warfare the alt-right movement and they caught on and started doing the same to leftists? Do you think people like Hbomberguy or Contra Points would survive that barrage without blood being drawn? Driving the alt-right movement to become more underground than they are will only allow them to fester and become more hateful than they are now. Better to have them somewhere where you can see what they are up to? 1. I think there is already an alt-right patreon or crowdfunding platform (name escapes me though). 2. Contra and Shaun & Jen already had their videos mass-flagged. If they were relying on Youtube exclusively for financial support, they would be screwed. The channer troll army is pretty big. Financial/banning warfare is already in full swing. 3. The alt-right movement should be underground like it was for decades after Jim Crow. Having white supremacists advocate and recruit for their cause openly doesn't somehow benefit "the discourse" and the marketplace of ideas doesn't work in the way that you think that it does. "Defeating" alt-right arguments in the open doesn't do anything to the alt-right because they don't give a poo poo about logic or arguing from an intellectually honest position. Pembroke Fuse fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 16:08
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Pembroke Fuse posted:1. I think there is already an alt-right patreon or crowdfunding platform (name escapes me though). I hope it's called something terrible like patrearch.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:11
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Kokoro Wish posted:Say what you want about TYT or Michael Tracey, this is still a relatively interesting interview with a person writing about the Alt-Right and the like, author of "Kill All Normies" Angela Nagle. While I agree that there is some intellectual atrophy going on on the left, I'm not sure I can concur with Angela that Tumblr is to blame because these kids tear down Germaine Greer, but none of them can argue on her level. That just feels like a leftist version of 'kids these days don't respect their elders'.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:11
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WampaLord posted:Except right now, everything seems to mostly be working out okay? The obvious bigots and shitheads get banned, the one who learn how to dog whistle politely enough are allowed to remain. The system is working, and all you have to say that it won't is hypothetical slippery slope bullshit. Well I could get into the intricacies of data mining algorithmns or even the more obvious fact that america very probably wouldn't have Trump as a president without social media as it currently exists right now, but why spoil your perfectly good time D Quixoting your way through thinking politics. Bon voyage.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:12
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OwlFancier posted:I appreciate that you may be American and thus unable to consider that other parts of the world exist but I did clearly say international in that sentence somewhere. So which specific country do you think is both responsible and has the means to actually enforce regulation of the internet? I can only think of a few, and I don't want any of them doing it at the moment and I'm willing to wait four years before we consider this plan again. I don't think we're going to become a cyberpunk dystopia in that amount of time. I mean, we haven't even awoken the dragons or seen people transform into elves and dwarves yet, for one thing.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:13
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:The implication of this post is that racist conclusions are so obviously true that their spread can only be contained at the platform-level. No, the post says nothing about the veracity of racist conclusions. I don't know if you can understand this or not, but bad ideas don't spread and take hold in a culture because they are true. They take hold because they are appealing, for a variety of reasons, to our inherently limited human brains. Biases are pretty much hard-wired. Emotional responses, particularly hatred, have a great staying power in creating and maintaining narratives. People latch on to bad ideas not because they're true, but because they feel good, offer scapegoats and are easy to digest. People are not inherently rational and never were. They can be more rational or less rational, but they are still constrained by some basic factors of cognition. White supremacists are great at tapping into the worst, most easily-accessible intersections between simplicity, emotion and ignorance and their message will always sell better. Pembroke Fuse fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 16:14
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Desiderata posted:While I agree that there is some intellectual atrophy going on on the left, I'm not sure I can concur with Angela that Tumblr is to blame because these kids tear down Germaine Greer, but none of them can argue on her level. Oh wait, no I don't, that would just put me in the same place as every other transphobic shitwit, alt-right or TERF or 'South Park libertarian' or otherwise.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:15
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Who What Now posted:So which specific country do you think is both responsible and has the means to actually enforce regulation of the internet? I can only think of a few, and I don't want any of them doing it at the moment and I'm willing to wait four years before we consider this plan again. I don't think we're going to become a cyberpunk dystopia in that amount of time. I mean, we haven't even awoken the dragons or seen people transform into elves and dwarves yet, for one thing. As I said, it has to be an international effort, because otherwise people will just move their hosting overseas or spin it off into front companies in other countries, capital has no national allegiance.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:15
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Fados posted:Well I could get into the intricacies of data mining algorithmns or even the more obvious fact that america very probably wouldn't have Trump as a president without social media as it currently exists right now, but why spoil your perfectly good time D Quixoting your way through thinking politics. Wow, what an assholish response. The reasons Trump is president are numerous, and I'm not sure how data mining matters in this discussion?
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Jul 25, 2017 16:16
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OwlFancier posted:As I said, it has to be an international effort, because otherwise people will just move their hosting overseas or spin it off into front companies in other countries, capital has no national allegiance. You still need the ability to enforce participation in an international effort, so who's going to be doing that?
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Jul 25, 2017 16:18
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Guavanaut posted:I hope it's called something terrible like patrearch.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:19
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Who What Now posted:You still need the ability to enforce participation in an international effort, so who's going to be doing that? All subscribing nations? That's how international efforts work.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:19
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WampaLord posted:Wow, what an assholish response. I think he means Cambridge Analytica and their dark advertising/voter suppression campaign on Facebook. They also worked with the Brexit side. Basically, they conduct "innocent-looking" online quizzes, mine them for data, build voter profiles based on that data and then send dark ads to those users specifically. One example is when they were able to figure out which facebook posters were black and undereducated and repeatedly sent them (and only them) ads referencing Clinton's "superpredator" remarks. This may have caused lower turnout for Clinton on Nov. 8th amongst poorer, black voters. Pembroke Fuse fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 16:20
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WampaLord posted:Wow, what an assholish response. Maybe you should try to figure it out, before dismissing all claims of the increasing prevasiveness relating to the ground of public discourse this system you feel that "is working" is creating as slippery slope bullshit. I'd help you but I'm probably not the best source and also phone posting so there.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:20
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Pembroke Fuse posted:I think he means Cambridge Analytica and their dark advertising/voter supression campaign on Facebook. To claim that as the one reason Trump is President is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence. I look forward to hearing it. Fados posted:Maybe you should try to figure it out, before dismissing all claims of the increasing prevasiveness relating to the ground of public discourse this system you feel that "is working" is creating as slippery slope bullshit. I'd help you but I'm probably not the best source and also phone posting so there. No, I don't have to try to "figure out" your dumb slippery slope fallacy argument of  THINGS MIGHT GET WORSE! It's the same argument pessimists have made for all time.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:22
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Forgall posted:It's called Hatreon. And no, they are not capable of having "are we the baddies" moment.  gently caress me, it's even more perfect than I imagined.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:22
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OwlFancier posted:All subscribing nations? That's how international efforts work. Do... do you actually think that all nations have perfectly equal power of enforcement in international projects and agreements? Seriously? You honestly believe that a nation like Chad or Laos has all the same power of the US when it comes to things like this?
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Jul 25, 2017 16:25
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Forgall posted:It's called Hatreon. And no, they are not capable of having "are we the baddies" moment. Holy crap...it is an actual website. I thought you were just making a joke but decided to check..... loving Poe's Law man, Christ.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:26
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Who What Now posted:Do... do you actually think that all nations have perfectly equal power of enforcement in international projects and agreements? Seriously? You honestly believe that a nation like Chad or Laos has all the same power of the US when it comes to things like this? 
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Jul 25, 2017 16:28
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Desiderata posted:While I agree that there is some intellectual atrophy going on on the left, I'm not sure I can concur with Angela that Tumblr is to blame because these kids tear down Germaine Greer, but none of them can argue on her level. She's not saying they actually matter: she's saying that they match the alt-right's rhetorical technique and make a convenient target for them. She IS saying that the left hasn't presented many attractive ideas to cultivate opposition to an energized right. The right would be there regardless; tumblr just happens to be the fiction they use to claim to oppose something powerful (16-year-olds sending death threats to Steven Universe fans for drawing the characters too skinny).
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Jul 25, 2017 16:29
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Forgall posted:It's called Hatreon. And no, they are not capable of having "are we the baddies" moment. Quick, lets test their credentials and see if they'll let Chapo advertise on there
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Jul 25, 2017 16:29
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Guavanaut posted:I wish I could argue on levels like "Just because you lop off your dick and then wear a dress doesn't make you a loving woman. I’ve asked my doctor to give me long ears and liver spots and I’m going to wear a brown coat but that won’t turn me into a loving cocker spaniel." Quite. There is something of an hole in Angela's argument if she is going to simultaneously believe that the left needs "new ideas" but insists that it shouldn't question or tear down past idols. If she's really is looking for a modern sjw friendly, 30 year old, Greer equivalent, she should be looking at Laurie Penny or her ilk.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:30
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Forgall posted:It's called Hatreon. And no, they are not capable of having "are we the baddies" moment. That's the one. There is also one specifically for crowdfunding random stuff, not just content creation. Again, the question goes out to IFM, if we're already waging economic/takedown warfare, why shouldn't we attempt to protect ostensibly public spaces from white supremacists?
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Jul 25, 2017 16:30
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Who What Now posted:Do... do you actually think that all nations have perfectly equal power of enforcement in international projects and agreements? Seriously? You honestly believe that a nation like Chad or Laos has all the same power of the US when it comes to things like this? I think that as the desire for neutrality in information is going to be more appealing in nominal democracies as it is there where it poses an existential threat, you need as many of them as possible to sign up to put pressure on the nations which aren't democracies and thus don't stand to suffer at all from hosting information networks hostile to democratic nations. America could not do that alone if it wanted to.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:31
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WampaLord posted:To claim that as the one reason Trump is President is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence. I look forward to hearing it. You don't see the problem with a bunch of profit driven coporations having massive ammounts of data about every single habbit, locations personal relation and preference of virutally the majority of a country's population and how they can use this to make money? You are starting to have people wearing literal glasses that tell you what to think when you look at things, but this to you seems like the 'system if working' and not a blatant beginning of a crucial element for a future more authoritarian regime?
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Jul 25, 2017 16:34
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Fados posted:You don't see the problem with a bunch of profit driven coporations having massive ammounts of data about every single habbit, locations personal relation and preference of virutally the majority of a country's population and how they can use this to make money? You are starting to have people wearing literal glasses that tell you what to think when you look at things, but this to you seems like the 'system if working' and not a blatant beginning of a crucial element for a future more authoritarian regime? How does any of this related to YouTube and the alt right? Also, lmao at describing Google Glass as "glasses that tell you what to think when you look at things." You sound like a conspiracy theorist.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:38
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WampaLord posted:To claim that as the one reason Trump is President is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence. I look forward to hearing it. Hard to say because election data has a ton of confounding factors. However, they haven't exactly gone under and are continuing to server far right causes all over the world. Others are also getting in on data mining to sway elections. Did it get Trump elected? Probably not. Did it influence voters in the Brexit and '16 elections? Yeah, it probably did. This isn't really a good trend though. These models and vectors will improve as more of your social media data becomes harvestable. The ability to sway the less-engaged gut-feel undecided voters with dark advertising can pay off pretty big in the future.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:39
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Pembroke Fuse posted:Hard to say because election data has a ton of confounding factors. However, they haven't exactly gone under and are continuing to server far right causes all over the world. Others are also getting in on data mining to sway elections. Did it get Trump elected? Probably not. Did it influence voters in the Brexit and '16 elections? Yeah, it probably did. This isn't really a good trend though. These models and vectors will improve as more of your social media data becomes harvestable. The ability to sway the less-engaged gut-feel undecided voters with dark advertising can pay off pretty big in the future. So, how did Jeremy Corbyn's unexpected success happen then? Surely if there were a massive social media conspiracy to suppress (presumably leftist) votes, Theresa May would have won overwhelmingly. If you want to claim that the right is fixing elections, any left victory disproves that.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:41
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WampaLord posted:So, how did Jeremy Corbyn's unexpected success happen then? Surely if there were a massive social media conspiracy to suppress (presumably leftist) votes, Theresa May would have won overwhelmingly. The UK has limits on what parties are allowed to spend on elections, the tories literally aren't allowed under UK election law to spend as much money as they like to buy votes. The press also goes under election broadcasting rules too. Also, I mean, May is literally the most incompetent idiot we've had in office in decades.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:42
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OwlFancier posted:the tories literally aren't allowed under UK election law
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Jul 25, 2017 16:44
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OwlFancier posted:The UK has limits on what parties are allowed to spend on elections, the tories literally aren't allowed under UK election law to spend as much money as they like to buy votes. So how did they manage to spend money to push Brexit and voter suppression through social media?
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Jul 25, 2017 16:44
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Guavanaut posted:Doesn't stop them though. True in cases but it still stops them from outright buying the election.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:45
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WampaLord posted:So how did they manage to spend money to promote Brexit through social media? They didn't, half the tories were pro remain as that was the government stance, much of the financing came from non-political-party organizations, and the referendum wasn't an election, and thus I don't think it was even subject to election rules.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:46
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OwlFancier posted:They didn't, half the tories were pro remain as that was the government stance, much of the financing came from non-political-party organizations, and the referendum wasn't an election, and thus I don't think it was even subject to election rules. Ah, so this is all a nice bullshit smokescreen about how social media and Big Data is destroying us, when there's no proof that it is.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:47
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WampaLord posted:Ah, so this is all a nice bullshit smokescreen about how social media and Big Data is destroying us, when there's no proof that it is. What? To be clear, massive spending did occur to swing the EU referendum, but you're incorrect in saying it was the tories that did it. As I said, it came from multiple independent organizations which as far as I know, bypasses the election rules even if they were relevant.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:47
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WampaLord posted:So, how did Jeremy Corbyn's unexpected success happen then? Surely if there were a massive social media conspiracy to suppress (presumably leftist) votes, Theresa May would have won overwhelmingly. It's not about someone 'rigging' an election but more an insidious process of relativization of information through data-mine based 'custom tailored content'. Think the spread of fake news websites. Google & Facebook can claim all they want that they're gonna ban fake news or whatever but the process that generated it is an immanent consequence of the argorithmic content suggestion. This can still also work in favor of progressive movements for sure but as the inherent logic of tailored content gets stronger driven through the profit motif, you will have less and less rigorous curation of standards in information and consumption which can only benefit conservative mystification.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:48
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Pembroke Fuse posted:No, the post says nothing about the veracity of racist conclusions. I don't know if you can understand this or not, but bad ideas don't spread and take hold in a culture because they are true. They take hold because they are appealing, for a variety of reasons, to our inherently limited human brains. Biases are pretty much hard-wired. Emotional responses, particularly hatred, have a great staying power in creating and maintaining narratives. People latch on to bad ideas not because they're true, but because they feel good, offer scapegoats and are easy to digest. People are not inherently rational and never were. They can be more rational or less rational, but they are still constrained by some basic factors of cognition. White supremacists are great at tapping into the worst, most easily-accessible intersections between simplicity, emotion and ignorance and their message will always sell better. Okay, you are right, but pretend I said "appealing" instead of "true". Your false dichotomy is still ridiculous to me - obviously appeals to emotions and fears and all that are powerful and dangerous and all that, but that doesn't mean the only options are to wither and die to the unfettered spread of white supremacy or prevent white supremacists from posting on mainstream video platforms entirely. I think the former is overstated and engaging the public sphere on the same level(ala chapo) is the actual deterrent that blocking them from youtube, adding to their put-upon narrative while handing the reins to tech giants, will never be.
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Jul 25, 2017 16:49
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