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fallenturtle posted:Pewdiepie's? No, I haven't seen his rape joke videos. If you don't know anything about him then why are you choosing to die on this hill? 
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Jul 25, 2017 18:42
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Kjoery posted:ah yes, a joke that isn't funny, and is also incredibly anti-semetic and just happens to align with an incredibly popular & lucrative political movement. Just because its not funny to us doesn't mean its not funny to others. Look, clearly no agreement is going to happen here, so I'll just sum it up as such: Black comedy and tasteless jokes are always going to offend someone but just because its offensive doesn't meant the teller advocates the punchline. I recall as a youth we use to make dead baby jokes, but I'm fairly certain none of us were actually in favor of killing babies.
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Jul 25, 2017 18:45
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fallenturtle posted:Pewdiepie's? No, I haven't seen his rape joke videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFbVKL-Meo0
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Jul 25, 2017 18:48
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fallenturtle posted:Just because its not funny to us doesn't mean its not funny to others. And who is it funny to, do you think? Is it anti-Semites? By golly, I think it is!
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Jul 25, 2017 18:48
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fallenturtle posted:Look, clearly no agreement is going to happen here, so I'll just sum it up as such: Black comedy and tasteless jokes are always going to offend someone but just because its offensive doesn't meant the teller advocates the punchline. I recall as a youth we use to make dead baby jokes, but I'm fairly certain none of us were actually in favor of killing babies. Yes, but the difference is there isn't a dedicated faction of baby killers (yea yea, make your abortion/soldier jokes) out there with a philosophy dedicated to baby killing, who successfully managed to kill 6 million babies a few decades ago. DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE?
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Jul 25, 2017 18:51
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Goon Danton posted:We can't know their inner life, we can only know their words and actions, which are anti-semitic. The thing is that PewDiePie's words and actions for the most part don't come off as anti-Semitic. He's come out and said he's sorry, that he's not anti-Semitic, and doesn't endorse anti-Semitic views. If you watch the video where he had those guys hold up the sign his reaction reads "holy poo poo, I can't believe they actually did it" and not "hahaha, now I'm getting my anti-Semitic views out to the world!" The whole thing seems like someone basically just being stupid and insensitive yet the reaction seems like he posted some Davis Aurini like screed.
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Jul 25, 2017 18:57
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fallenturtle posted:The thing is that PewDiePie's words and actions for the most part don't come off as anti-Semitic. He's come out and said he's sorry, that he's not anti-Semitic, and doesn't endorse anti-Semitic views. You're either incredibly naive or posting in bad faith. Michael Richards apologized for what he did too, does that suddenly make him not racist?
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Jul 25, 2017 19:00
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Who What Now posted:You said it's clearly a joke. Jokes are supposed to be funny. Explain why it's funny. Isn't this the same type of humor that was popular in FYAD last decade? The humor derives from shock that these Fiver guys would be willing to hold up a sign which such a terrible message. quote:Why can't people who tell jokes be bigots?
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Jul 25, 2017 19:02
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fallenturtle posted:That's a good video, I watched it a few weeks ago. Maybe you should watch it again, because you apparently missed every point she made in it and are now arguing the exact opposite.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:04
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WampaLord posted:Ah, the "If he wasn't actually killing Jews while yelling 'I am killing you because you are Jewish and I loving hate Jews,' then it's okay!" defense. quote:You're right, I cannot peer into Felix's heart and determine if he actually hates Jewish people. I can only look at his actions, which have shown hatred for Jews and inspired others to express their own hatred of Jews and determine that it's loving unacceptable.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:09
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fallenturtle posted:That's a little hyperbolic, don't you think? That defense would imply if he was saying anti-Semitic things in earnest while making his joke. I haven't seen the earnest part which is why I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Well, to be frank, this isn't a court of law. I don't need to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he's Anti-Semitic to you, because obviously you won't accept that answer. All I can say is that he deserves to be shunned for his terrible actions. He didn't "pay the price" nearly enough, he still is rich as gently caress and has an audience of millions and millions. Seriously man, watch the Lindsey Ellis video again and put your phone down and actually listen. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 19:13
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fallenturtle posted:And he paid the price which is completely fair. I'm not saying what he did was okay, I just don't think it proves he hates the Jews. Then he's an enabler or a fellow-traveller willing to carelessly use "humor" to feed into the perceptions and narratives of people who actually hate the Jews. His actions have consequences that specifically benefit one very nasty world view and screaming about how it's "just jokes" isn't going to change that.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:17
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WampaLord posted:And again, there's a million other "outrageously shocking" things he could say that don't call for genocide. The fact that it was dumb and poorly thought out doesn't mean he hates Jewish people. quote:It doesn't matter. If you make racist jokes, that's bad, full stop. I disagree. I think if you are racist, that's bad, full stop. I think its possible for some racist jokes to be funny but for them to be funny is highly situational... off the top of my head I can think of 3 situations: 1) The joke teller is a member of the group that the joke is bigoted towards. 2) A member of the group that the joke is bigoted towards is in on the joke (pre-planned). 3) The joke is being made within a small group of people who all know each other well enough to realize that the joke is a joke and the teller of the joke doesn't actually hold these bigoted views and is going for shock (see dead baby jokes) or mocking the stereotypes that the joke is based on (basically small group of friends hanging out). I believe PewDiePie was aiming for 3 but failed spectacularly because YouTube is not a small group of people who know each other well.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:22
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Who What Now posted:If you don't know anything about him then why are you choosing to die on this hill? Because I think he's being unfairly labeled. Also because I don't think this is a fatal conversation. Are you all planning to shun me because of this one opinion despite the fact I agree on a lot of the other opinions expressed in this thread? That would be pretty lovely.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:27
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fallenturtle posted:3) The joke is being made within a small group of people who all know each other well enough to realize that the joke is a joke and the teller of the joke doesn't actually hold these bigoted views and is going for shock (see dead baby jokes) or mocking the stereotypes that the joke is based on (basically small group of friends hanging out). PDP has 50 million subscribers and has been around the internet for a while. He knows he's on a public forum and has been exposed to internet drama in the past. Stating that he was basically trying to tell a joke for the in-crowd only while doing it on his massive platform is a pretty unbelievable defence.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:30
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fallenturtle posted:Because I think he's being unfairly labeled. I wouldn't say you'll be shunned, but you'll probably be known as "the guy who goes to bat to say that bigoted jokes are cool and good" for a while.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:30
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That's pretty tasteless. So do you think he's pro-rape or ignorant to the seriousness of rape?
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Jul 25, 2017 19:31
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fallenturtle posted:The thing is that PewDiePie's words and actions for the most part don't come off as anti-Semitic. He's come out and said he's sorry, that he's not anti-Semitic, and doesn't endorse anti-Semitic views. If you watch the video where he had those guys hold up the sign his reaction reads "holy poo poo, I can't believe they actually did it" and not "hahaha, now I'm getting my anti-Semitic views out to the world!" The whole thing seems like someone basically just being stupid and insensitive yet the reaction seems like he posted some Davis Aurini like screed. He paid people to hold up signs with anti-semitic slogans. That is quite literally endorsing anti-semitic views. Sponsoring them even. fallenturtle posted:Because I think he's being unfairly labeled. Just so we're clear, are you saying you agree with the opinions of the posters in this thread, or with the opinions of the youtubers we post?
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Jul 25, 2017 19:31
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Who What Now posted:I wouldn't say you'll be shunned, but you'll probably be known as "the guy who goes to bat to say that bigoted jokes are cool and good" for a while. Yea, I'm not calling for him to be banned or anything, but any hypothetical respect I might have had for him is loving out the window.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:32
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Who What Now posted:And who is it funny to, do you think? Is it anti-Semites? By golly, I think it is! Probably... but I think its probably also funny to a bunch of teenagers and tone-deaf young adults.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:33
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fallenturtle posted:That's pretty tasteless. If he's ignorant of the seriousness of rape, it's sort of his responsibility to educate himself and walk back his bullshit... or come off as someone who's pro-rape. I guess I would be willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt if they were trying to figure poo poo out, but there is no evidence that he's anything except a shitlord who either supports the positions he spouts or doesn't care about the damage that they do. In that case, having his reputation in the gutter is the least he deserves.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:35
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WampaLord posted:Yes, but the difference is there isn't a dedicated faction of baby killers (yea yea, make your abortion/soldier jokes) out there with a philosophy dedicated to baby killing, who successfully managed to kill 6 million babies a few decades ago. I see the difference, but I think that line is relative to a person's sensitivities. There are plenty of people who find 9/11 jokes funny and there are plenty of people who find them appalling.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:36
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fallenturtle posted:I see the difference, but I think that line is relative to a person's sensitivities. There are plenty of people who find 9/11 jokes funny and there are plenty of people who find them appalling. 9/11 was a one off attack targeted at no particular group in particular (other than "Americans"). While jokes about 9/11 can indeed be offensive, they can't really be bigoted, unless you're making anti-Islam jokes. The phrase "Death to all Jews" conjures up, you know, the loving HOLOCAUST. A systemic attempt to genocide a people. The very definition of bigotry.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:39
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WampaLord posted:You're either incredibly naive or posting in bad faith. quote:Michael Richards apologized for what he did too, does that suddenly make him not racist?
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Jul 25, 2017 19:40
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fallenturtle posted:That's pretty tasteless. I wouldn't say hes "pro-rape", but I'll absolutely say that he's pro-rape-culture.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:41
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WampaLord posted:Well, to be frank, this isn't a court of law. I don't need to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he's Anti-Semitic to you, because obviously you won't accept that answer. All I can say is that he deserves to be shunned for his terrible actions. All it would take for me to think he's anti-semitic is him making anti-semitic comments in earnestness.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:43
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fallenturtle posted:All it would take for me to think he's anti-semitic is him making anti-semitic comments in earnestness. quote:In a later, now-deleted video in which Kjellberg continued to criticize the absurdity of Fiverr’s freelance service, he showed a clip of an Israeli-based Fiverr freelancer who had made a video while dressed as Jesus and declaring that “Hitler did nothing wrong.” After Fiverr responded by suspending the freelancer’s account (it has since been restored), Kjellberg joked in another now-deleted video, “It’s a little bit ironic that Jews somehow found another way to gently caress Jesus over.” quote:Meanwhile, the WSJ also discovered that Kjellberg had inserted clips of Nazi imagery into many of his other videos. In a January 14 video about the “kazoo kid” meme, Kjellberg included an audio clip of the Nazi Party anthem while bowing over a swastika as part of a “secret summoning ritual.” The WSJ noted that near the beginning of a (since-deleted) February 5 video, Kjellberg also “included a very brief Nazi salute with a Hitler voiceover saying ‘Sieg Heil’ and the text ‘Nazi Confirmed’.” quote:And in a February 10 video that is ostensibly about people overreacting to his new platinum blond hairdo, Kjellberg tacitly compares himself to Hitler, gives a Nazi salute, and shows a series of clips of Nazi imagery, including a crowd of Nazis saluting, Nazi soldiers marching, and footage of Hitler Youth.  https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/2/17/14613234/pewdiepie-nazi-satire-alt-right
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Jul 25, 2017 19:45
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Pembroke Fuse posted:Then he's an enabler or a fellow-traveller willing to carelessly use "humor" to feed into the perceptions and narratives of people who actually hate the Jews. His actions have consequences that specifically benefit one very nasty world view and screaming about how it's "just jokes" isn't going to change that. I think that's always going to be a problem with the internet. What a couple of decades ago would have just been a bad tasteless joke eventually forgotten about can now find an audience who is empowered by it.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:48
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Pembroke Fuse posted:PDP has 50 million subscribers and has been around the internet for a while. He knows he's on a public forum and has been exposed to internet drama in the past. Stating that he was basically trying to tell a joke for the in-crowd only while doing it on his massive platform is a pretty unbelievable defence. Then you think he's less ignorant than I do.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:49
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Well, that's all very unfortunate, but we require a signed and notarized Affirmation of Racism in order to be able to say the things he says and does are sincere.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:50
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WampaLord posted:9/11 was a one off attack targeted at no particular group in particular (other than "Americans"). While jokes about 9/11 can indeed be offensive, they can't really be bigoted, unless you're making anti-Islam jokes. You're right, I am mixing black humor that is bigoted VS black humor that is just offensive. Bad comparison on my part.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:51
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fallenturtle posted:You're right, I am mixing black humor that is bigoted VS black humor that is just offensive. Bad comparison on my part. So you agree that bigoted "black humor" is totally unacceptable?
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Jul 25, 2017 19:54
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fallenturtle posted:Probably... but I think its probably also funny to a bunch of teenagers and tone-deaf young adults. Many posters here don't think it necessary for any discurssive ambiguity to be allowed relating to these matters. They see any opening, be it humor or even allegory, as something that can only lead to a slippery slope ending in discrimatory oppression. They take the concept of socially unconscious racism/sexism rooted in discursive practices and can't see any other solution than universalizing it, so that the only out to end discrimation is simply eradicating discriminatory discourse. A kind of formally Marxist attitude, that ends up ignoring a huge amount of nuances and caveats that this type of critical theory usually comes accompanied with, eg a Freudian dimension which makes clear that simply banning discourse is only a temporary solution at best because the symptom will always be return in another form unless you change the conditions of it's possiblity, eg the socio-economical ground which breeds it. They also reject the ambiguity of language here, and don't accept the reflexive and emancipatory role discriminatory jokes can have in even overcoming racist/sexist stereotypes in specific contexts like the 3 examples you mentioned before with which I agree. Obviously defenses of humour as simply humour and irreproachable are also wrong but there is a middle ground here that requires each particular case of jokes or inapropriate speech to be analyzed in the context. But this analytic distance would rob them of the kneejerk pleasure they derive in antagonizing these individuals. This is all part of hyperliberal favorite pastime of self-flagelation and perpetual introspection for traces of discrimination, which mostly just turns what would actually be good activism into an individualistic self-serving game.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:55
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fallenturtle posted:You're right, I am mixing black humor that is bigoted VS black humor that is just offensive. Bad comparison on my part. Um excuse me sir, it is pretty presumptive for you to assume a joke is a bigot just because of its content. You need to really get to know the joke in order to make a judgment about how it feels.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:57
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fallenturtle posted:All it would take for me to think he's anti-semitic is him making anti-semitic comments in earnestness. What's your foolproof way of differentiating between jokes you don't mean, and jokes that you earnestly believe in?
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Jul 25, 2017 20:06
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I think your above references were not him being earnest. He just looks like a dumbass not taking the Holocaust or Nazis serious enough. He's clearly immature and likes to try to be edgy. That said, I'm tired of defending him.
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Jul 25, 2017 20:34
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Goon Danton posted:Well, that's all very unfortunate, but we require a signed and notarized Affirmation of Racism in order to be able to say the things he says and does are sincere. You can call him what you want. I'm just expressing my opinion. I'll stop.
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Jul 25, 2017 20:35
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fallenturtle posted:I think your above references were not him being earnest. He just looks like a dumbass not taking the Holocaust or Nazis serious enough. He's clearly immature and likes to try to be edgy. "Uh...poo poo, this guy's actually doing Nazi poo poo a lot...uh..uh... HE'S JUST BEING EDGY, I'M SICK OF DEFENDING HIM."
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Jul 25, 2017 20:38
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fallenturtle posted:That said, I'm tired of defending him. I hope this discussion makes you reconsider your decision to defend him in the first place, and you will hopefully give bigots less benefit of the doubt going forward. I really do.
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Jul 25, 2017 20:39
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I have friends who think casual racism and misogyny is "dark humor" and I can't wait for that mindset to die a quick death. "A guy got in trouble for making his dog sieg heil, truly this is the death of discourse" 
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