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Libluini posted:Also, my personal knowledge of yiddish is zero, so everything related to that will just pass me by. Like, it will orbit Earth over my head, so far away is it from my personal experience.
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Jul 25, 2017 18:34
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It's close enough to German even I can mostly understand Yiddish and my German sucks from a solid decade of disuse.
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Jul 25, 2017 18:35
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I'm seeing this quote being passed around by some folks to draw a parallel to modern culture to a Roman culture prior to the fall of the empire.quote:“The five marks of the Roman decaying culture: How well supported is Gibbon here? At first read, I assumed this didn't actually come from Gibbon because it smells of a reading of history too much through a modern lens.
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Jul 25, 2017 18:44
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oh no, dick went this way instead of that way, the empire is doomed
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Jul 25, 2017 18:49
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captkirk posted:I'm seeing this quote being passed around by some folks to draw a parallel to modern culture to a Roman culture prior to the fall of the empire. If you said that this was taken directly from a Breitbart article, nobody would be surprised.
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Jul 25, 2017 18:50
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captkirk posted:I'm seeing this quote being passed around by some folks to draw a parallel to modern culture to a Roman culture prior to the fall of the empire. edit: he didn;t say it. He did say this though: quote:The main culprits in Rome’s decline, as he saw it, were not ordinary citizens misbehaving, growing dissolute, or creating bad art. They were degenerate and immoral rulers, foreign invaders, and (most problematic for modern Christian readers) Christian converts and clergymen. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 18:50
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HEY GAIL posted:it sounds enough like german that you miiiight be able to fake your way through a conversation Except with me.  Grand Fromage posted:It's close enough to German even I can mostly understand Yiddish and my German sucks from a solid decade of disuse. If that's true, it could be I've even talked with people using Yiddish without me noticing. (I'm stupid and bad at identifying languages not named English or German, it's all either gibberish or a bad accent to me. I'd probably misidentify someone using Yiddish as East Frisian or something equally stupid.) captkirk posted:I'm seeing this quote being passed around by some folks to draw a parallel to modern culture to a Roman culture prior to the fall of the empire. No, this sounds like Gibbons alright. The problem is, those five points are varying degrees of garbage and I wouldn't trust any of it. Edit: Wait it's not Gibbon? Hell, seems my hatred of Gibbon has lead me astray.
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Jul 25, 2017 18:53
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Libluini posted:
Also a number of the ideas, and the vocabulary they're expressed in, are really modern. Like, thinking that "living off the state" is even a thing you can do, much less objecting to it, is not a thing a guy from the 1700s would be concerned with. His conception of "the state" would be far different from our abstract, impersonal view, which has been shaped by a whole fuckton of bureaucracy. There are laws in place to feed poor people, but an abstract large entity called "the state" isn't what handles that, the parish is.
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Jul 25, 2017 18:58
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Regarding that fall o' Rome checklist you'd consult once trump is president, Here's a more modern, popular history view of what is still an intriguing question: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N9ZJXZJ/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 Edit: I should clarify Mike Duncan specifically says that while it's silly to compare the fall of Rome to the USA, the fall of the Roman REPUBLIC contains a lot more interesting parallels. Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 19:04
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The whole list is stupid, but how did they get the live of the state thing? Is there a group of people out there who think Rome was socialist?
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Jul 25, 2017 19:27
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HEY GAIL posted:it's difficult to "feel" your way through writing style in a language that isn't your first one, but gibbon is far more eloquent. It also probably doesn't help that I always thought Gibbon was someone from the 19th century, not the loving 1700s! (This probably again, because I'm kind of insular in my knowledge: When I was seriously reading stuff about ancient cultures all the time, nearly 100% of it was written by Germans from the 19th century (the rest just from Germans, just not super-ancient ones). So when Gibbon was mentioned, I think I must have assumed that he also was from the 19th century, and just never bothered to check.) This is by the way the reason why every time I bring up really ancient history, I tend to quote German sources like Hans J. Nissen. It gets even dumber when you get one of his books, open up the appendix and realize he is quoting field specialists from all over the world -and then realize this prejudice you have is completely loving unfounded and you feel like an rear end. Now to make this post have a reason to exist, you should all try to get Hans J. Nissen's "Geschichte Alt-Vorderasiens", if you can read German. Sadly, I don't think his works are available in English. His style is a bit dry, but he gives you a nice overview about the ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia and the surrounding areas.The book spans the time from 15000 BC up to the Achaemenid Empire, so it also includes stuff like the Ubaid period. If you can read it, you should get it.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:29
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The Belgian posted:The whole list is stupid, but how did they get the live of the state thing? Is there a group of people out there who think Rome was socialist? I mean to be fair panem et circenses.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:36
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The Belgian posted:The whole list is stupid, but how did they get the live of the state thing? Is there a group of people out there who think Rome was socialist? Poorer citizens of Rome and a few of the other major cities rely on the grain/bread rations as a a staple -> therefore the majority of the entire empire relied on The Evil State -> therefore evil socialism destroyed Rome!!
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Jul 25, 2017 19:38
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The Belgian posted:The whole list is stupid, but how did they get the live of the state thing? Is there a group of people out there who think Rome was socialist? Probably from the state grain dole (in the later empire, this was replaced by heavily subsidized bread, salt, meat, and wine). People with a modern day axe to grind about welfare programs love to complain about this as having ruined everything, and indeed in the late republic a number of politicians made attempts to cut down on the numbers of people claiming it, but it was never successfully abolished and by the imperial period no one cared to try. It's hard to make any factual statement as to how much of a drain it was on government resources or how much it contributed to the collapse of the empire in the west, which makes it ideal target for modern "but what if...WERE ROME?!?!,!?!?" type projections.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:41
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Libluini posted:Now to make this post have a reason to exist, you should all try to get Hans J. Nissen's "Geschichte Alt-Vorderasiens", if you can read German. Sadly, I don't think his works are available in English. He's been translated, for example see https://www.amazon.com/Early-History-Ancient-Near-9000-2000/dp/0226586588/, but the quality is ... not great.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:43
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Oh right, forgot about the bread thing. I gues there's some logic behind it even if it's stupid.
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Jul 25, 2017 19:55
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OneTruePecos posted:He's been translated, for example see https://www.amazon.com/Early-History-Ancient-Near-9000-2000/dp/0226586588/, but the quality is ... not great. And it's only the old, outdated 1st edition. You poor, English-speaking bastards. In 2012, his publisher Oldenbourg Verlag brought out a far superior, completely revised and updated version. Also the phrase "lavishly illustrated" just makes me smile. In my German original version, there's exactly zero illustrations. There are a couple maps at the end, that's it. Edit: Ouch, those comments! The original can be dry as a brick sometimes, but it's fairly easy to understand. Nissen writes some long sentences sometimes, though. I'm guessing that's why the translator is goofing this up: I was warned in university to keep my English sentences short, or I would confuse my English readers. I guess this translator instead decided short, easy-to-understand sentences are for the weak.
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Jul 25, 2017 20:05
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Never trust a gibbon IMO.
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Jul 25, 2017 20:10
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Slight derail but..Short sentences are good for general utilitarian writing but, like, Faulkner style long sentences are good too? Has opinion really turned so far against long sentences in, say, academia/college? Like I know journalists have to write for everyone, but are long sentences just bad now?
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Jul 25, 2017 20:17
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Jack B Nimble posted:Slight derail but..Short sentences are good for general utilitarian writing but, like, Faulkner style long sentences are good too? Has opinion really turned so far against long sentences in, say, academia/college? Like I know journalists have to write for everyone, but are long sentences just bad now? I think more to the point English and German have different sorts of long sentences and a direct translation will be hard to follow because of that
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Jul 25, 2017 20:19
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Jack B Nimble posted:Slight derail but..Short sentences are good for general utilitarian writing but, like, Faulkner style long sentences are good too? Has opinion really turned so far against long sentences in, say, academia/college? Like I know journalists have to write for everyone, but are long sentences just bad now? It depends on whom you ask. The more you care about your readers' understanding of your ideas, the more you should be writing shorter sentences. This is true in every context without exception. When you have other priorities -- long traditions, others' expectations, a desire to demonstrate your ability to write complex English -- then you probably won't.
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Jul 25, 2017 20:26
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skasion posted:Probably from the state grain dole (in the later empire, this was replaced by heavily subsidized bread, salt, meat, and wine). People with a modern day axe to grind about welfare programs love to complain about this as having ruined everything, and indeed in the late republic a number of politicians made attempts to cut down on the numbers of people claiming it, but it was never successfully abolished and by the imperial period no one cared to try. It's hard to make any factual statement as to how much of a drain it was on government resources or how much it contributed to the collapse of the empire in the west, which makes it ideal target for modern "but what if...WERE ROME?!?!,!?!?" type projections. Weren't most of the big bronze age civilizations working with command economies anyways? When the state controls most of the grain, they're going to end up being the distributor of it every so often.
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Jul 25, 2017 21:40
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SlothfulCobra posted:Weren't most of the big bronze age civilizations working with command economies anyways? When the state controls most of the grain, they're going to end up being the distributor of it every so often. I don't think it's really accurate to call it a command economy when they're only really dealing with one, albeit major, aspect of the whole economy. Especially when very little was touched by the state power when far away from the government center itself.
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Jul 25, 2017 21:43
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cheetah7071 posted:I think more to the point English and German have different sorts of long sentences and a direct translation will be hard to follow because of that German accademic writing can and will pile up incredible constructs that are next to impossible to follow? Why? I was told that this constitutes good writing and deep understanding of the matter, and the person said that with a completely straight face. It's the complete opposite ofc. The more banal the insight, the harder they will try to mask it with collosal expressions and lenghty sentences. I loving hate it.
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Jul 25, 2017 21:52
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JaucheCharly posted:The more banal the insight, the harder they will try to mask it with collosal expressions and lenghty sentences. I thought that was literally the goal of all undergrad classes regardless of discipline. 
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Jul 25, 2017 22:11
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JaucheCharly posted:German accademic writing can and will pile up incredible constructs that are next to impossible to follow? Why? I was told that this constitutes good writing and deep understanding of the matter, and the person said that with a completely straight face.
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Jul 25, 2017 22:12
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Chichevache posted:I thought that was literally the goal of all undergrad classes regardless of discipline. Math tries to break it's students of this habit, with limited success. The noun is good. The adverb is evil.
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Jul 25, 2017 22:15
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Eela6 posted:The adverb is evil. Really?
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Jul 25, 2017 22:55
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homullus posted:Really? 
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Jul 25, 2017 22:58
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captkirk posted:I'm seeing this quote being passed around by some folks to draw a parallel to modern culture to a Roman culture prior to the fall of the empire. A list of "causes of the fall of the Roman Empire according to Edward Gibbon" which doesn't have Christianity mentioned at all, let alone not listed at the very top, is ridiculous.
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Jul 25, 2017 23:30
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HEY GAIL posted:yiddish and german are related but not identical, it seems Odd in that to me that has a much more obvious homophone with similar meaning that is probably completely unrelated.
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Jul 26, 2017 05:00
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homullus posted:It depends on whom you ask. The more you care about your readers' understanding of your ideas, the more you should be writing shorter sentences. This is true in every context without exception. When you have other priorities -- long traditions, others' expectations, a desire to demonstrate your ability to write complex English -- then you probably won't. This is the ancient history thread, the bad opinions about writing thread is in Creative Convention.
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Jul 26, 2017 05:52
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Also the modern weirdo white supremacists who are really obsessed with the Roman Empire are often of Anglo-Saxon descent... you know, the very barbarians they blame for destroying the Roman Empire.
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Jul 26, 2017 06:38
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I, white supremacist, am going to get super into this Roman state, the most inclusive ancient empire which drew enormous strength from its ability to incorporate and accept a huge diversity of peoples and cultures successfully.
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Jul 26, 2017 06:44
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And since they were Italian, they weren't true Aryans anyway. But I don't know that, because I am a dumb An actual question: How famous were famous people in Rome or Greece? Did people (normal working joes, not patricians) know what Socrates, Catullus, or Cicero look like? Did they care?
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Jul 26, 2017 06:57
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Tasteful Dickpic posted:And since they were Italian, they weren't true Aryans anyway. But I don't know that, because I am a dumb In the case of 5th century Athens, the comic poet Aristophanes wrote plays satirizing various men who we know about from other sources. I'm thinking particularly of Socrates (who he portrays as a scam artist in The Clouds) and the populist politician Cleon (who he portrays as a demagogue in The Knights). The humor in those plays works without knowing the particulars of those people, but there must have been a reason Aristophanes chose to name those characters after real contemporary people. In the Apology, Plato has his character Socrates claim that the play was how most people knew of him and so suggests that there is an atmosphere of bias against him in Athens during his trial. So I think there's something to Socrates being "famous," in the sense of his name being known from the play. But I don't think it was the celebrity kind of fame, or people being able to put a name to a face.
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Jul 26, 2017 07:24
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Grand Fromage posted:I, white supremacist, am going to get super into this Roman state, the most inclusive ancient empire which drew enormous strength from its ability to incorporate and accept a huge diversity of peoples and cultures successfully. Make Rome Great Again! *loses ability to raise troops, negotiate with provincials, access to North African grain supply*
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Jul 26, 2017 07:35
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Phobophilia posted:Make Rome Great Again! *loses ability to raise troops, negotiate with provincials, access to North African grain supply* That's what happens when you start letting Germans run things. 
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Jul 26, 2017 07:42
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OwlFancier posted:Odd in that to me that has a much more obvious homophone with similar meaning that is probably completely unrelated.
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Jul 26, 2017 10:39
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Safety Biscuits posted:This is the ancient history thread, the bad opinions about writing thread is in Creative Convention. Read some ancient history and report back.
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Jul 26, 2017 16:02
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